Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
From: Dee Flint on Dec 15, 3:21 pm
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message

Actually the place that I see the difference in operating skills is on the
VHF bands in the VHF contests. When I review my contacts in those contests,
the large majority of them are Extra class operators. They seem to be the
ones to have the skill necessary to put together and operate a station
suitable to make long distance VHF contacts and the skill to do so.

Wow! Someone should have TOLD the U.S. Army Signal Corps folks
at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1946 when they were the first to
bounce a radio signal off the moon!

How much power was used by the Army?

The transmitter used was a modified SCR-271 radar unit. It produced
3000 W on 111.5 Mc. (that's what the Signal Corps called them
back then). Pair of 6C21 triodes in the output - they look similar to
1000Ts.

3000 W output with those tubes at that frequency means about 5000 W
input.
The amateur power limit back then was 1000 W input.

How large was the antenna?

64 dipoles in front of a plane reflector. At least 24 dB gain over
isotropic.

There's a lot more info at:

http://www.campevans.com/diana.html

btw, it was a moon RADAR experiment, not a communications system.

The mode used was OOK CW. The echoes were heard as beeps. Had there
been
a second station, communication could have been done by Morse Code.

But no Morse Code was used because no communication was done. There was
no second station to communicate with.

Those Diana folks had a some hams involved, though - all code tested at
at
least 13 wpm:

Lt. Col John H. DeWitt, officer-in-charge, W4ERI, ex-W4FU

E.K. Stodola, head of the lab's Research Section, W3IVF

F. Elacker, Mechanical Engineer, ex-W2DMD

H.P.Kaufmann, W2OQU was also involved at a high level.

Those are just the hams I know of that were involved. There were
probably more.

Note that a good number of the top people were radio amateurs.

They used power levels 9 dB above those permitted to amateurs at the
time, and
an antenna that was quite beyond "backyard construction". They had lots
of
resources.

Lt. Col. DeWitt, W4ERI, was the driving force behind the whole idea,
which he
first began working on in 1940.

Hams
are now doing moonbounce wherein one of the stations is using a modest
50 MHz yagi and 100w or so.

A few years back, a couple of hams (both code-tested, at least one
an Extra) did microwave EME with less than
100 W and dishes less than 10 feet in diameter - at both ends. Using
their own resources.

Yeah, they should have told the Signal Corps "how to do it" in
Korea in the 1950s when they set out all that VHF radio relay
equipment in the hills and valleys there.

Where WAS the ARRL when all that was going on? They didn't tell
the Signal Corps much of anything...

Where Worked All States? During WWII, the Signal Corps used the ARRL
Handbook, Leonard. I'll bet that chafes you to no end.

The ARRL actually produced a special "Defense Edition" Handbook
for training purposes.

There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam".

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
From: Dee Flint on Dec 15, 3:21 pm
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message

Actually the place that I see the difference in operating skills is on the
VHF bands in the VHF contests. When I review my contacts in those contests,
the large majority of them are Extra class operators. They seem to be the
ones to have the skill necessary to put together and operate a station
suitable to make long distance VHF contacts and the skill to do so.

Wow! Someone should have TOLD the U.S. Army Signal Corps folks
at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1946 when they were the first to
bounce a radio signal off the moon!

How much power was used by the Army?

The transmitter used was a modified SCR-271 radar unit. It produced
3000 W on 111.5 Mc. (that's what the Signal Corps called them
back then). Pair of 6C21 triodes in the output - they look similar to
1000Ts.

3000 W output with those tubes at that frequency means about 5000 W
input.
The amateur power limit back then was 1000 W input.

Was RADAR a legal mode? What was the PRF?

How large was the antenna?

64 dipoles in front of a plane reflector. At least 24 dB gain over
isotropic.

There's a lot more info at:

http://www.campevans.com/diana.html

btw, it was a moon RADAR experiment, not a communications system.

The mode used was OOK CW. The echoes were heard as beeps. Had there
been
a second station, communication could have been done by Morse Code.

But no Morse Code was used because no communication was done. There was
no second station to communicate with.

Those Diana folks had a some hams involved, though - all code tested at
at
least 13 wpm:

Conditionals or FCC tested?

Lt. Col John H. DeWitt, officer-in-charge, W4ERI, ex-W4FU

FU suffix, huh? I'm suprised the fCC let that one through.

E.K. Stodola, head of the lab's Research Section, W3IVF

F. Elacker, Mechanical Engineer, ex-W2DMD

H.P.Kaufmann, W2OQU was also involved at a high level.

Those are just the hams I know of that were involved. There were
probably more.

There always are.

Note that a good number of the top people were radio amateurs.

They used power levels 9 dB above those permitted to amateurs at the
time, and
an antenna that was quite beyond "backyard construction". They had lots
of
resources.

A fantastic use of post-war resources.

Lt. Col. DeWitt, W4ERI, was the driving force behind the whole idea,
which he
first began working on in 1940.

What idea? To bounce a signal off of the moon for no communications
purpose?

Isn't that like bouncing a basketball off of a backboard with no
intention of making a basket?

Hams
are now doing moonbounce wherein one of the stations is using a modest
50 MHz yagi and 100w or so.

A few years back, a couple of hams (both code-tested, at least one
an Extra) did microwave EME with less than
100 W and dishes less than 10 feet in diameter - at both ends. Using
their own resources.

Go Hams!

Yeah, they should have told the Signal Corps "how to do it" in
Korea in the 1950s when they set out all that VHF radio relay
equipment in the hills and valleys there.

Where WAS the ARRL when all that was going on? They didn't tell
the Signal Corps much of anything...

Where Worked All States? During WWII, the Signal Corps used the ARRL
Handbook, Leonard. I'll bet that chafes you to no end.

The ARRL actually produced a special "Defense Edition" Handbook
for training purposes.

There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam".

73 de Jim, N2EY

A KG6, no doubt. BTW, I saw KG6DX listed in the CQWW.

From: on Dec 18, 3:57 pm

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
From: Dee Flint on Dec 15, 3:21 pm
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message

Actually the place that I see the difference in operating skills is on the
VHF bands in the VHF contests. When I review my contacts in those contests,
the large majority of them are Extra class operators. They seem to be the
ones to have the skill necessary to put together and operate a station
suitable to make long distance VHF contacts and the skill to do so.

Wow! Someone should have TOLD the U.S. Army Signal Corps folks
at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1946 when they were the first to
bounce a radio signal off the moon!

How much power was used by the Army?

The transmitter used was a modified SCR-271 radar unit. It produced
3000 W on 111.5 Mc. (that's what the Signal Corps called them
back then). Pair of 6C21 triodes in the output - they look similar to
1000Ts.

3000 W output with those tubes at that frequency means about 5000 W
input.
The amateur power limit back then was 1000 W input.

Was RADAR a legal mode? What was the PRF?

RADAR is an acronym for RADIO Direction And Ranging.

Radar was perfectly legal for the DoD to use. The FCC has
no governance on the government radio energy use.

"PRF?" With an echo return delay of 2 1/2 seconds, isn't
much good for lively back-and-forth anything. 0.3 Hz
PRF could be used. :-)

The USN put it to use in communications first, simplex only
with, I think, RTTY. I'll have to find the excellent USN
paper "From The Sea To The Stars" history somewhere on an
archive CD here. Has the history of the USN involvement
in space and communications thereto, from an official USN
website.



There's a lot more info at:

http://www.campevans.com/diana.html

Jimmie is nostalgic over experiments done 59 years ago.

He wasn't there but he was there.


btw, it was a moon RADAR experiment, not a communications system.

Tsk, Jimmie thinks "communications systems" arrive full-blown,
fully-proven? :-)

Project Diana was an EXPERIMENT to test whether or not the
moon could be used as a radio wave reflector. It was and
what followed were more experiments by many to determine
what the frequency ranges were, the reflection characteristics.

There wasn't any need to "radar" the moon. The moon's orbit
has been accurately known for years, if not centuries. We
can all make certain of where it is. No radar needed for that.

The mode used was OOK CW. The echoes were heard as beeps.

Really? :-)

Civilian at Fort Monmouth Signal Labs told us it was
first observed on an oscilloscope, one of the long-
persistence phosphor types used in some radars then.
Of course that was told to us in 1952 AT Fort Monmouth
by one of the experimenters. Since he didn't give a
ham call sign Jimmie would suspect him of lying. :-)

1952 was only 6 years after Project Diana. The
experiment was fresh in his mind and, having been
there as part of it, could recall much.


Those Diana folks had a some hams involved, though - all code tested at
at least 13 wpm:

Conditionals or FCC tested?

Uh huh, like Coles, Evans, and Squier laboratories was
busy, busy on ham radio research in 1946? :-)

In reality, the 1945-1950 time was one of transition from
a world war effort to peacetime and lots of the movers
and shakers in technology-intense war efforts were out to
carve new niches for themselves and their groups. Good PR
was the word of the day. A "moon bounce" thing was hot PR
at the time, attracted attention from the budget-keepers
in Congress and the Pentagon.



Those are just the hams I know of that were involved. There were
probably more.

There always are.

...and Jimmie "knows" them. :-)


They used power levels 9 dB above those permitted to amateurs at the
time, and
an antenna that was quite beyond "backyard construction". They had lots
of resources.

A fantastic use of post-war resources.

That "111 Megacycle" radar was already surplus before WW2 ended.
Not a problem. :-)

Anyone riding a bus to Red Bank from Fort Monmouth could look
out and see lots and lots of "junk" at two of the labs along
the highway in 1952, just 6 years after the Diana success. All
sorts of "bedspring" antenna structures were sitting in the
vehicle parking areas.

Lt. Col. DeWitt, W4ERI, was the driving force behind the whole idea,
which he first began working on in 1940.

What idea? To bounce a signal off of the moon for no communications
purpose?

In 1940 that ancient Project Diana radar set (the
original, not the kludge version used IN Diana) was
still undergoing operational testing. Even then it was
a late-comer using rather conventional vacuum tubes in the
usual ring-oscillator circuit...the style of transmitter
used by the Brits for radar along the channel.

The Brits would come up with the magnetron to make microwave
radars the future practical success. We would incorporate
those in all the later radars at S, C, and X bands during
WW2. The "star" of Army radar was the semi-trailer size
SCR-584 gun-laying radar set which was definitely well above
VHF in frequency range. Those were far from "surplus" in
1946. Monmouth had a couple for radar school practice in
1952. :-)

Isn't that like bouncing a basketball off of a backboard with no
intention of making a basket?

Jimmie "Knows" what was intended, deep in his heart. He "felt"
it 59 years ago.

The concept of reflection of radio waves was well known in
basic radio physics in the 1940s. What was lacking was
some definite information on the characteristics of
radio wave reflection. Nobody had any CONFIRMED idea of
the reflectivity of the lunar surface in the 1940s.



... During WWII, the Signal Corps used the ARRL
Handbook, Leonard. I'll bet that chafes you to no end.

I really don't think so, having known a lot of USA, USN,
and Air Corps vets who trained during WW2. Some of them
said they used a USN basic book. Nobody mentioned
any "ARRL books." shrug

A 2-hour lab class one afternoon had us examine a bunch
of "basic hardware" of radio. One item was a two-tube
MOPA style HF transmitter. That MIGHT have been made
from a ham design although it didn't tune into ham bands
that existed then (instructor told us so, monitored on
an old Hammarlund receiver). We didn't take notes. In
fact, written notes were discouraged. Not for "secrecy,"
but for the need to have it in the head, much more useful
in the field which didn't allow for notebooks or stacks
of magazines for reference which could get rather wet.

In 1952 at the Signal School in Fort Monmouth we (at
least in radar basic classes) used training films on
basic principles and Army FMs, TMs for paper study,
some mock-up training aids that included a "block of
frozen RF" (acrylic plastic 3-D waveguide fields and
waves, roughly the size of 1 GHz guide). I'm not
acquainted with what was used at the Field Radio
and Telephone schools at Camp Gordon (now a Fort) used.
Monmouth in 1952 was basically for radar training with
advanced schools for the VHF, UHF, and microwave radio
relay sets...and photography, then a part of the Signal
organizational envelope (photography is now under the
media graphics specialty groups, not part of SigC).

As I remember the old ARRL handbook from the late 1940s,
I can't recall a heckuva lot of multivibrators or radar
or microwave information, nor of servo motors (but there
was a mention of Selsyns, surplus for beam indication).
Perhaps the ARRL had to exorcise all that "wartime
literature" because of "secrecy?" :-)


[unsigned message, under wraps due to Title 18 U.S.C.]

wrote:
From: on Dec 18, 3:57 pm

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
From: Dee Flint on Dec 15, 3:21 pm
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message

How much power was used by the Army?

The transmitter used was a modified SCR-271 radar unit. It produced
3000 W on 111.5 Mc. (that's what the Signal Corps called them
back then). Pair of 6C21 triodes in the output - they look similar to
1000Ts.

3000 W output with those tubes at that frequency means about 5000 W
input.
The amateur power limit back then was 1000 W input.

The USN put it to use in communications first, simplex only
with, I think, RTTY. I'll have to find the excellent USN
paper "From The Sea To The Stars" history somewhere on an
archive CD here. Has the history of the USN involvement
in space and communications thereto, from an official USN
website.

All anyone has to do is google that title and the website's URL
will come right up.

Project Diana demonstrated EME radar echoes in 1946.

Amateurs demonstrated radar echoes in 1953.

The Navy first demonstrated EME *communications* in January
1960 (RTTY, Washington DC to Hawaii).

Amateurs demonstrated 2-way EME communications in July 1960.
(Morse Code, 1296 MHz, California to New England)

There's a lot more info at:

http://www.campevans.com/diana.html

is nostalgic over experiments done 59 years ago.

He wasn't there but he was there.

I'm not "nostalgic", Len. Just passing on some information.

Am I not supposed to post urls here?

btw, it was a moon RADAR experiment, not a communications system.

thinks "communications systems" arrive full-blown,
fully-proven? :-)

It took the US Govt. 14 years to go from the EME radar experiments
of 1946 to a working EME communication system of 1960.

Project Diana was an EXPERIMENT to test whether or not the
moon could be used as a radio wave reflector.

Was it?

Or was it an experiment to prove that VHF radio waves could penetrate
the
atmosphere from the earth? (It was already known that radio waves could
do so in the opposite direction, from radio astronomy experiments
before
WW2).

Or was it a gee-whiz sort of stunt to be the first to do something and
try to impress people?

Or maybe some of all of the above?

It was and
what followed were more experiments by many to determine
what the frequency ranges were, the reflection characteristics.

Was there any doubt?

There wasn't any need to "radar" the moon. The moon's orbit
has been accurately known for years, if not centuries. We
can all make certain of where it is. No radar needed for that.

Yet it was indeed a radar experiment.

Those Diana folks had a some hams involved, though - all code tested at
at least 13 wpm:

Conditionals or FCC tested?

Doesn't say. Probably FCC tested.

Uh huh, like Coles, Evans, and Squier laboratories was
busy, busy on ham radio research in 1946? :-)

The amateurs named were all long-time-licensed hams.

In reality, the 1945-1950 time was one of transition from
a world war effort to peacetime and lots of the movers
and shakers in technology-intense war efforts were out to
carve new niches for themselves and their groups.

Ah - so it was partly a form of radiosport for bragging rights, eh?

Good PR
was the word of the day. A "moon bounce" thing was hot PR
at the time, attracted attention from the budget-keepers
in Congress and the Pentagon.

IOW, a gee-whiz sort of stunt to be the first to do something and try
to impress people.

They used power levels 9 dB above those permitted to amateurs at the
time, and
an antenna that was quite beyond "backyard construction". They had lots
of resources.

A fantastic use of post-war resources.

That "111 Megacycle" radar was already surplus before WW2 ended.
Not a problem. :-)

Typical ham radio swords-into-plowshares ingenuity. Why build a new
system
if an old one can be converted?

Anyone riding a bus to Red Bank from Fort Monmouth could look
out and see lots and lots of "junk" at two of the labs along
the highway in 1952, just 6 years after the Diana success. All
sorts of "bedspring" antenna structures were sitting in the
vehicle parking areas.

Looking isn't doing, Len.

When it comes to amateur radio, you're a looker, not a doer.

Lt. Col. DeWitt, W4ERI, was the driving force behind the whole idea,
which he first began working on in 1940.

What idea? To bounce a signal off of the moon for no communications
purpose?

Yes.

In 1940 that ancient Project Diana radar set (the
original, not the kludge version used IN Diana) was
still undergoing operational testing. Even then it was
a late-comer using rather conventional vacuum tubes in the
usual ring-oscillator circuit...the style of transmitter
used by the Brits for radar along the channel.

The British used it effectively. They had relatively crude equipment
but skilled operators and an effective communications network.

Without their radar capabilities the Battle of Britain may have turned
out
differently.

The Brits would come up with the magnetron to make microwave
radars the future practical success.

The reentrant cavity magnetron, actually.

We would incorporate
those in all the later radars at S, C, and X bands during
WW2. The "star" of Army radar was the semi-trailer size
SCR-584 gun-laying radar set which was definitely well above
VHF in frequency range.

The "star"?

How about the airborne radars? Air-defense radars (some so well
developed they were
built into submarine periscopes)? Radio altimeters?

Those were far from "surplus" in
1946. Monmouth had a couple for radar school practice in
1952. :-)

None of which had the power or antennas to do EME anyway.

The concept of reflection of radio waves was well known in
basic radio physics in the 1940s. What was lacking was
some definite information on the characteristics of
radio wave reflection. Nobody had any CONFIRMED idea of
the reflectivity of the lunar surface in the 1940s.

So they built a radar set to do the job.

... During WWII, the Signal Corps used the ARRL
Handbook, Leonard. I'll bet that chafes you to no end.

I really don't think so, having known a lot of USA, USN,
and Air Corps vets who trained during WW2. Some of them
said they used a USN basic book. Nobody mentioned
any "ARRL books." shrug

Yet the books were used. A special "Defense Edition" ARRL handbook
was printed and used by various military branches.

A 2-hour lab class one afternoon had us examine a bunch
of "basic hardware" of radio. One item was a two-tube
MOPA style HF transmitter. That MIGHT have been made
from a ham design although it didn't tune into ham bands
that existed then (instructor told us so, monitored on
an old Hammarlund receiver). We didn't take notes. In
fact, written notes were discouraged. Not for "secrecy,"
but for the need to have it in the head, much more useful
in the field which didn't allow for notebooks or stacks
of magazines for reference which could get rather wet.

In my opinion and experience, that's a poor method of training.

The act of creating a notebook means the student must mentally
process the information and write it in his/her own words. In other
words the student must take an active, rather than passive, role in
the process. Of course the notebooks cannot be depended on
during testing, but that is not their purpose.

Note that in other training systems, such as qualifying in WW2
submarines, the creation of a notebook with all required information
is an essential part.

wrote in message
oups.com...

[snip]


There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam".

73 de Jim, N2EY


Where can I read that story? Or perhaps you could summarize here?

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

[snip]


There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam".

73 de Jim, N2EY


Where can I read that story? Or perhaps you could summarize here?

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

W/O George Tweed, USN, RM1c. Also KB6GJX. He was left behind on Guam
and
eluded capture by the Japanese for 31 months, until the island was
retaken by
American forces.

He was aided and kept from capture by the efforts of the Chamoru
(Guamanians),
who hid him, kept him supplied, and would not give him up despite large
rewards
offered by the Japanese occupiers. The Japanese tortured and executed
many
Chamoru inhabitants, including a Roman Catholic priest, on the
suspicion that they
had information on Tweed. But the they never gave Tweed up.

One version of the story may be read and seen in the book and film "No
Man Is An Island".

I have read that Tweed is not fondly remembered on Guam. Postwar
accounts
tended to portray him as a lone heroic figure, and to downplay or even
ignore
the terrible price paid by those who helped him.

The radio connection to all this is that while Tweed was hiding from
the Japanese,
he built and operated several receivers, and was able to give the
Chamoru
accurate war news. He even wrote a small newspaper to circulate the
news.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote


There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam".


The "Ghost of Guam" was US Navy Radioman 1st Class George Tweed. He wasn't a
ham. Was reputed to be laid up drunk in a house of horizontal refreshment when
the Navy evacuated the island just ahead of the WW-II JA invasion so he missed
his ride. Had to hide out in the jungle for a few years until the USN came
back. In the book/movie "No Man is an Island" he comes off as a hero, but was
in fact not popular with the locals, several of whom (including a native RC
Priest) lost their lives for not revealing his whereabouts. After the war he
skedaddled without so much as a thank-you.

73, de Hans, K0HB

"KØHB" wrote in message
ink.net...

wrote


There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam".


The "Ghost of Guam" was US Navy Radioman 1st Class George Tweed. He
wasn't a ham. Was reputed to be laid up drunk in a house of horizontal
refreshment when the Navy evacuated the island just ahead of the WW-II JA
invasion so he missed his ride. Had to hide out in the jungle for a few
years until the USN came back. In the book/movie "No Man is an Island" he
comes off as a hero, but was in fact not popular with the locals, several
of whom (including a native RC Priest) lost their lives for not revealing
his whereabouts. After the war he skedaddled without so much as a
thank-you.

73, de Hans, K0HB



He was at the Legion Christmas party and personally thanked you
and everyone else.

KØHB wrote:
wrote


There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam".


The "Ghost of Guam" was US Navy Radioman 1st Class George Tweed. He wasn't a
ham. Was reputed to be laid up drunk in a house of horizontal refreshment when
the Navy evacuated the island just ahead of the WW-II JA invasion so he missed
his ride. Had to hide out in the jungle for a few years until the USN came
back. In the book/movie "No Man is an Island" he comes off as a hero, but was
in fact not popular with the locals, several of whom (including a native RC
Priest) lost their lives for not revealing his whereabouts. After the war he
skedaddled without so much as a thank-you.

73, de Hans, K0HB

But Jim knows him and knows him as a ham. Jim is, after all, the final
authority on military and ham history.