Dave Heil wrote:

Andy Cowley wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:


C'mon. You've got a bunch of grown men who wear bowler hats and their
Sunday best, marching in celebration of battles fought eons ago. Get


Of course no one in America would think of celebrating an
old battle on July 4th.


1) We don't come to your neighborhood to do our celebrating.

ER, um. Yes, you do. You also come to our neighbourhood with cargoes
of people for onward shipment to torture camps in eastern Europe.

2) We aren't celebrating a battle or a war; we're celebrating our
independence.


Have you heard of the War of Independence, aka the Revolutionary War?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

cf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamite_war_in_Ireland



I can see how you'd think that way. Really, I can. Thankfully, you
aren't in the majority where you live.


You really should visit Europe and research the facts. Your dumb
confidence in our support is misplaced.

Andy

Dave Heil wrote:

[snip for brevity]
I've made numerous snips throughout this...

Ah yes of course, you'll be telling us next that America wasn't
defeated in Vietnam...oh wait.


You're quite right. America was not militarily defeated in Vietnam.

Let me use your American logic - at the end of the war which America ran
away from after being soundly trounced by little dudes in pointy hats
and sandals, were there any American troops in Vietnam. I didn't think
so either.

Whats next? Afghanistan attacked America? Weapons of mass destruction
in Iraq? No torture in Guantanamo?


No, I'll likely bring up the recent widespread use of central heating in
the U.K.

Well it would make a welcome change from the wholesale bull spread by
you and your fellow country men.

Coventry was fire-bombed. Did you lose WWII? London endured waves
of buzz bomb and V2 attacks. Did you lose WWII?


The White House was torched after America declared war on Britain
which was already involved in a war against another dictator. Did you
win the war? No.


Yes.

No you did not. Great Britain was not militarily defeated and still had
a presence in North and for that matter South America.

America was suicide bombed. Have you won the "War against terror"? NO!


I don't recall hearing that it is over.

Oh I wouldn't call the wholesale massacre of virtually unarmed peasantry
and civilians a war at all. You think you'd have learned by now not to
get into a guerilla war but no..

Of course I can see now where you're coming from. America in yet
another war of aggression attacks Great Britain when it thinks its
attention is elsewhere and its forces weakened.


In another war of aggression? Hmmmmphhhhhft! You're living up to the
name under which you post.

Please, go and read real American history, you know, the sort without
stars and stripes around the pages and discover how many wars of
aggression America has waged.

Britain was stopping and seizing American ships and kidnapping their crews.

I'm sorry, America was supplying an enemy combatant for profit. (Does
anything ever change?) But I suppose you think we should have let that
continue?

Perhaps you've heard of the Battle of New Orleans. Thousands of
redcoats were running for their lives, tossing down their weapons as
they ran.

Yes I have. Perhaps you've heard of the Battle of Washington? No? Me
neither. Why is that? Wasn't so much a battle as a humiliation was it? I
suppose the troops there who were not militarily defeated were involved
in a giant pincer movement to the south in and around the New Orleans
area which the fast moving President Munro was in a hurry to personally
supervise?

Yes I can see how an American would equate the buring of his capital
and seat of power along with several repulsed invasions of Canada as a
victory.
Only a typical yank could equate the ending of the war as a victory.


Our capital was burred?

Oh dear! You've typo flamed me! You've just lost any credibility you
might have had.

Most wars are over when they end.

At the end of the war, were British forces on U.S. land? Did British
ships attempt to seize American ships and their crews?

At the end of the war in which Great Britain was not militarily defeated
and which was ended by treaty Great Britain retained a presence in North
and South America unlike you lot in Vietnam.

When the war ended the best army in the field was unquestionably the
British and it was largely the British who made the sweeping gains of
the last days. The Americans did bugger all even when the war was in
danger of being lost early in 1918.


Did it turn out well for you? Could you have won the war without
American participation?

Yes. But it would have taken longer, The biggest contribution American
forces made was psycological... ie the Germans knew they now had no
chance in a war of attrition.

Lease lend certainly was.


Were you under the impression that America should have simply given
Britain military equipment? I'm sure that you're eternally grateful for
the support. How old are you, Pointy?

Old enough to know that rationing here did not end until the 50's when
we'd cleared our debt caused by saving Americas and the worlds ass when
we fought alone.

What German domination? Unaided by America the UK thwarted for all
time Hitlers plans to invade.


Then you needed no lend-lease from America and you needed no American
troops. You could have done just dandy all by yourselves. Hitler and
his successors would have just smiled and waved at you from the beaches
of France for all eternity.

Hello? I don't remember America selling us any Spitfires during the
Battle of Britain, do you? Now, given that by the time you lot decided
it was time to come on board and really make some money we'd already won
the Battle of Britain, turned the tide in Africa and Russia was turning
back the Nazi hordes, Britain with the Commonwealth and Russia would
have won the war without America. It might have taken longer but it
would have been won. And lets get something else straight, Russia did
way more than America to secure allied victory in the second world war.

I thought I'd pointed that out.


No you didn't. I pointed out that it took two world wars of selfless
British action to end the Empire.


Right. All selfless action. There was no empire and colonies to
protect. There was just altruistic Britain doing its part to protect
its little brown, black and yellow subjects (and their riches).

Well last time I checked neither Belgium or Poland were part of the
Empire neither was its citizenry brown, yellow or black. But you knew
that didn't you?

No you haven't because if you had there'd by no way you'd label the
American War of 1812 a victory.


It's quite simple. America stopped Britain from seizing its ships and
crews. America tossed British forces out of the United States. How
much clearer need it be?

No it's not simple. Britain imposed an embargo on France, France did
likewise on Britain, America could just as readily have declared war on
France but didn't. Why? Because America saw the chance for territorial gain.

I'll bet that if you bothered to research it, you'd find only a tiny
percentage of Americans who act as professional Irishmen donating to
that cause.


What are you saying? America is a ******* nation?


That's Brit-think.

Not it's not. I'm not a Brit, in fact I first heard the term used by a Scot.

We Americans trace our ancestry to many different
lands,

So does my dog.

I had great-grandparents who were Irish
and German, Irish and English, English and English and French and
English. I've had neighbors who were descended from Poles, Russians,
Spaniards, Italians, Serbs, Ukrainians and Czechs. Who are you to refer
to those people as a ******* nation?

You're right. Mongrel is a better term.

That because of the size of the Irish American vote successive
Presidents did nothing to stop it?


Do you believe that America has a large Irish-American population which
votes as a bloc? It that were true and they had any power, we'd likely
have had nothing but Kennedys as presidents.

Oh come now! You know as well as I do that what pass for politicans over
there are always afraid of upsetting big blocs of voters be they Irish,
Jewish, Italian or whatever.

I personally don't know anyone who provided even a dime.


What you personally know or don't know does not change the facts.


We'll likely not know. You haven't provided any facts.

I don't need to provide them, they are well documented. Only a fool or
an American would deny it. Which are you? At a guess I'd say both.

I'd be willing to bet you don't know anyone who fought in the
aggressive war of 1812 yet here you're clearly distorting the facts!


At the war's end, were British ships stopping and seizing American ships
and crews? Were there any British forces on the U.S. mainland?

Was GB militarily defeated? No. Was the war ended by treaty? Yes. Did
Britain retain a presence in North America? Yes.

Isn't this thread about battles that were fought eons ago in which you
have tried to distort history?!


Not to my knowledge.

What, like all these battles were recent?

Did you have any comments about Paul's remarks
concerning the lack of necessity for writing of American history?

I'm sorry, I haven't seen that to which you refer.

What we had here was a bunch of murdering *******s who would not
accept the democratic will of the majority open expressed in free and
fair elections who were funded and armed by loony Americans and loony
dictators.


You had a bunch of loonies on both sides, fighting each other over whose
brand of Christianity was right and proper and over who could belong to
the exclusive club where all political power resides.

Not true. But I'd except such a simplistic view from an American.

Africans, long-accustomed to being lectured about the evils of
tribalism, laughing at you.

Can you imagine how outraged we were when we saw black Americans being
left to drown in New Orleans simply because they were black? Can you
imagine how hard we laughed we you lot elected a simpleton - though it
has to be said, not for the first time - as President?

You should also remember that the freedoms you and I enjoy would not
exist but for the victories celebrated by these marches.


We're not equals, Pointy.

No we're not. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I live in a caring
compassionate, real democracy - not one that money buys. I have freedoms
you can only dream about especially in the wake of things like "The
Patriot Act", "Homeland Security Bill" (I think I've got my titles right
but you'll understand if I haven't - it's hard to keep up with all the
suppression)

We don't have a perfect system but it is the
most free, egalitarian, bountiful country on the planet.

We have a saying over here Dave, "Your arse is out the window" and yours
most certainly is. Take the blinkers off and have a look at the real world.

--
Proud Holder of Old Nick's Deputy First Class Badge

If, and when, a truthful account of American history is written, I'm
sure Andy will read it. In the meantime, I suppose you will keep on
thinking the Hollywood version is correct.
===========================================

The last truthful Hollywood historian was Charlie Chaplin.

World History will be written by the nation which posesses the
greatest collection of Weapons of Mass Destruction and persists in
using them.
----

In message , Andy Cowley
writes
Dave Heil wrote:

Andy Cowley wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

If Great Britain could not wrest control of those islands from
Argentina, it should have held a going out of business sale.


If America "could not wrest control of" Vietnam from a bunch
of guys in black pyjamas "it should have held a going out of
business sale" ?
You must not know much about the history of that war or you could
not come to the conclusion that America was defeated militarily.

The army which retires first from the battlefield is generally
considered to have lost.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

The army which retires first from the battlefield is generally
considered to have lost.
===================================

True! But in those days the Americans were frightened of World
opinion. They could have dropped a hydrogen bomb on Hanoi - but
they didn't.

These days it depends only on what is in American interests. Sod the
rest of the world.
===========================================