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Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
Yes indeed. Let's all ignore posters like this and get on with enjoying
radio in all its forms. HNY to all when it comes :o) Graham -- -.-. -... / .-. .- -.. .. --- Radio is only a Hobby. Don't let it rule your life... 73/51 - Graham, 26-Golf Charlie-19 (www.open-channel.co.uk) "Orator For Decency" wrote in message oups.com... At 370 posts in only 4 days, it certainly seems as though this is an idea whose time has come! What a pity, though, that a number of the posts in the thread served to illustrate the childish behaviour being criticised. Has the infantility of the 6-year-old mind and its M3/CB Fools' Licence contaminated Radio Hammery to that extent? TIME TO PUT THE PROPOSALS BELOW INTO IMMEDIATE EFFECT! // snip // |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
why you put **** in rrap to? kepe it out plaese.
_________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:25:35 GMT, pointyhead
wrote: Did you ever wonder how /so/ many were ever able to break the pile up with 10w? Are you beginning to get the drift? You should hear VK3MO on 20 metres ssb, S9+ at my location, when he's running one watt... as every _REAL_ amateur should know the answer is in the antenna not the RF output. OK maybe lots of M3s can't resist pushing their newly bought gear up to 100W or or so., Are you telling me you always keep to the 400W at the antenna limit? If you were on 160 metres in the 10W DC input days did you never go above that? Dozens of G2s and G3s used to run in excess of 100W output on 160m and some I know ran over 1KW. Some of those read this newsgroup... bet their faces are red :-) Nothing ever changes... Peter, G3PHO |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
If you were on 160 metres in the 10W DC input days did you never go above that? Dozens of G2s and G3s used to run in excess of 100W output on 160m and some I know ran over 1KW. Some of those read this newsgroup... bet their faces are red :-) Aye And asked to QSY by Lands End Radio , by Telephone of course. A G3 Of course , some time after your Callsign Wlat . DieSea |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
Walt Davidson wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:23:13 GMT, (Peter) wrote: One very good friend of mine, a G8, is a Professor of Electrical Engineering at a well known UK University. He's written countless papers on antenna design, microwaves and the like, yet, for years, he was deprived the chance to operate on the HF bands simply because he had no interest in CW .... how ridiculous. As a Professor of Electrical Engineering, he must surely realise that to obtain one, or even _TWO_ degrees, students must sometimes pass examinations in subjects that do not entirely enthrall them. To get my degree in Business I.T., Business IT? Bwaahaaahaaa! "something that has been achieved with ease by many children of 14". Ever regret posting something? Hee! Hee! Wiggy |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
Walt Davidson wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:33:33 GMT, Wiggy mines.a.gin@tonic wrote: Business IT? Bwaahaaahaaa! "something that has been achieved with ease by many children of 14". Ever regret posting something? Hee! Hee! You obviously don't even know the meaning of the term. 73 de G3NYY Yes I do! When I did it 20 years ago, it was called CLAIT. Computer Literacy And Information Technology. Now it's been "bloated" like the software that comes with it to include all sorts of unnecessary and irrelevant crap! I'm afraid you have performed an illegally operation and you are about to be shut down. Wiggy |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
After replacing Walt Davidson with a small shell script on Saturday 31 Dec
2005 06:54, the following appeared on stdout: Yes I do! When I did it 20 years ago, it was called CLAIT. Computer Literacy And Information Technology. Now it's been "bloated" like the software that comes with it to include all sorts of unnecessary and irrelevant crap! I rest my case. Indeed. I suspect you spend a vast portion of that course studying IT law and asset management rather than nuts and bolts, Walt. Am I right? -- Radio glossary #44 Rotator: Someone who sits for hours twiddling the VFO knob but never transmitting. |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
Peter wrote:
You should hear VK3MO on 20 metres ssb, S9+ at my location, when he's running one watt... as every _REAL_ amateur should know the answer is in the antenna not the RF output. Are yoiu having a laugh Peter? If so you're the only one laughing. M3CVN uses a G5RV - maybe that's the secret?! OK maybe lots of M3s can't resist pushing their newly bought gear up to 100W or or so., Are you telling me you always keep to the 400W at the antenna limit? Yes. If you were on 160 metres in the 10W DC input days did you never go above that? Dozens of G2s and G3s used to run in excess of 100W output on 160m and some I know ran over 1KW. Some of those read this newsgroup... bet their faces are red :-) I've only had 2 qso's on topband in my life and never broken the terms of my licence. At least the G2's and G3's /earned/ the right to be on the bands, they had nothing given to them. Nothing ever changes... No it doesn't, there'll always be some apologist for mediocrity and the dumbing down of amateur radio to the level of six year olds and retards with the mental age of 6. -- Proud Holder of Old Nick's Deputy First Class Badge |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
Walt Davidson wrote:
On 26 Dec 2005 16:22:08 -0800, wrote: then someone reminds you that you were arrested for harassment .... that's being hoisted by your own petard. I think you ought to choose your words more carefully, Mike. I believe you meant to say "arrested for alleged harassment". Was the person concerned convicted of any offence? If not, then you are placing yourself in a position where you might easily be accused of defamation. 73 de G3NYY A bit of the old Walt commonsense. Careful, Walt, you'll have this lot attacking you for daring to show it. |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
jim.gm4dhj wrote:
Word will soon get around if children who have been conned by the various Billies-No_Mates into going for the M3/CB fools' Licence find that no-one will speak to them. Agreed...... Jim, there is a "Jimbo" using your callsign, who appears much more reasonable. Before you are accused of having reformed, please tell us if this an imitation. |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
Walt Davidson wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:02:36 -0000, "realradioham" wrote: OK I'm standing, what can we do? the problem is not the M3's but the system that let this farce happen. I don't agree with your sentiment that all M3's are freeloaders, that may have been the case when first introduced but not now. The only way into the hobby is via the new 3 step licensing but there is no real incentive to advance, a two year limit creating the provisional M3 licence would be a start - restriction of bands as in the good old us of a would be another. You can write to Ofcom, making exactly the points you mentioned above. That is what I did. If enough individuals do likewise, the regulator may be induced to make the necessary changes. The RSCB is of no relevance whatsoever in this matter. I think it's fair to say that Ofcom have learned their lesson - very belatedly - on that score. It does no good to keep sounding off about it here. There is nobody here who is going to pay a blind bit of notice. 73 de G3NYY Exactly my point Walt. In fact anyone in authority who takes a look at the anti-M3 "they are all the same" bigotry on here (which sadly you've often been a psrt of), will then discount all rational suggestions. I too think there should be both an age limit (minimum :-)) and a time limit, but I don't think either will be achieved by slagging off CBers and M3s willy nilly. |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
pointyhead wrote:
Too complicated OM. Just refuse to have anything to do with any M3, works fine for me. -- Proud Holder of Old Nick's Deputy First Class Badge And this is what I mean, Walt. And why he should a proud holder Heaven alone knows. |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
Peter wrote:
CW does not make you a better radio amateur but it does give some folk on this newgroup an inflated opinion of themselves. Perhaps that test and the RAE are only exams they have ever been able to pass? ;-) Peter, G3PHO True Peter. I have the 12 wpm morse, and I enjoy the mode. And I passed an essay exam many years ago. But that doesn't make me any better an amateur. It was necessary for the time, that's all. We nearly all built then and we shared some bands with CW people who _had_ to be able to make us understand if there was an emergency. (The Bs weren't on those bands so didn't need the morse.). Non-one needs the morse now (but it's still fun) and few people build. We _are_ really now nothing more than appliance operators, who hopefully have some concept of transmitting cleanly, apart from anyone who likes to choose some pioneering activity. All strength to both types of amateur, I say. Oh, and one other thing: we do enjoy heaps of spectrum. But if newsgroups carry on spouting the anti- line persistently enough, we may lose it. Good, some may say, it isn't what _we_ want to _you_ can't have it either! .. |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
realradioham wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message ... CW does not make you a better radio amateur but it does give some folk on this newgroup an inflated opinion of themselves. Perhaps that test and the RAE are only exams they have ever been able to pass? ;-) Peter, G3PHO The RAE was never an exam. It's not reconsider by any employer as a qualification. The Morse test merely showed a dedication to the hobby. A better test enabling access to HF would be an exam testing the ability of the individual to rectify emc issues etc. rrh Wrong. The RAE that Peter and I (callsign not that far away from Peter's) sat certainly was an exam. It required you to demonstrate real knowledge of things you needed to know then. From memory, it was 3 hours (maybe 2) of essay type questions that could not be guessed. You had to demonstrate understanding. And I know there were lots of employers who considered it a good vocational qualification. But the need for that particular knowledge has changed. We don't claim any superiority. |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
pointyhead wrote:
The Magnum wrote: No, sorry your not. Im not going to pass on who it was out of courtesy apart from telling you it wasn't him. Ha! You wouldn't tell me anyway! I'll bet though it was some lazy assed class b with a chip on his shoulder or an M3/Cb'er! Oh dear, Pointyhead really must have a problem. |
shit
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To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
an_old_friend wrote: wrote: pointyhead wrote: The Magnum wrote: No, sorry your not. Im not going to pass on who it was out of courtesy apart from telling you it wasn't him. Ha! You wouldn't tell me anyway! I'll bet though it was some lazy assed class b with a chip on his shoulder or an M3/Cb'er! Oh dear, Pointyhead really must have a problem. maybe this will let this thread die Maybe you'll tell us what gave you the right to decide? Steve, K4YZ |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
wrote in message ... pointyhead wrote: The Magnum wrote: No, sorry your not. Im not going to pass on who it was out of courtesy apart from telling you it wasn't him. Ha! You wouldn't tell me anyway! I'll bet though it was some lazy assed class b with a chip on his shoulder or an M3/Cb'er! Oh dear, Pointyhead really must have a problem. No chip on his shoulder. Just a sack of king Edwards.... :o) Regards, Graham -- -.-. -... / .-. .- -.. .. --- Radio is only a Hobby. Don't let it rule your life... 73/51 - Graham, 26-Golf Charlie-19 (www.open-channel.co.uk) |
steveiue shit
K4YZ wrote: To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either. an_old_friend wrote: wrote: pointyhead wrote: The Magnum wrote: No, sorry your not. Im not going to pass on who it was out of courtesy apart from telling you it wasn't him. Ha! You wouldn't tell me anyway! I'll bet though it was some lazy assed class b with a chip on his shoulder or an M3/Cb'er! Oh dear, Pointyhead really must have a problem. maybe this will let this thread die Maybe you'll tell us what gave you the right to decide? the same place you get the power to lie and claim "...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts..." you seem to think you have the right to decide what actions other people may take steve you don't the founder of this thread was troll he has to right to troll, I and anyone has to to try and cut through his net you are alying Sack of **** you don't know the menaing of the words you use, like "censorship" nobdoy was being censored I was and am still just trying to devert attention form a thread I think should die off I am removeing no post nor stoping anybody from making one, that would be censorship grow and learn the meaning of the word you use you might also try learning the difference between the truth and a lie you clearly don't that difference or are just choosing to avoid it Steve, K4YZ |
steve the lying asshole of RRAp lies some more
On 6 Jan 2006 05:48:55 -0800, "K4YZ" wrote:
an_old_friend wrote: wrote: pointyhead wrote: The Magnum wrote: No, sorry your not. Im not going to pass on who it was out of courtesy apart from telling you it wasn't him. Ha! You wouldn't tell me anyway! I'll bet though it was some lazy assed class b with a chip on his shoulder or an M3/Cb'er! Oh dear, Pointyhead really must have a problem. maybe this will let this thread die Maybe you'll tell us what gave you the right to decide? the ablity to act gives me the power what gives you the power to lie and call it censorship? in your case the ability to type Steve, K4YZ everyone should be advised that The following person has been advocating the abuse of elders making false charges of child rape, rape in general forges post and name he may also be making flase reports of abusing other in order to attak and cow his foes he also shows signs of being dangerously unstable he regualrly makes threats of aresst or of the power to confine folks againsthere will he is lying of course STEVEN J ROBESON 151 12TH AVE NW WINCHESTER TN 37398 931-967-6282 well stevie you assked for it you got it Mark Morgan _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
Time for the _REAL_ Radio Ham to make a stand?
At 590 posts in only 12 days, and a considerable
undertow of thread drift, perhaps it is time to remind ourselves of the high moral stance of the OP..... Pierian Spring wrote: It seems that anyone of those who are involved in any way with childrens' organisations or with the inducing of children to tackle the kindergarten entrance examination (that is represented by the 6-year-olds' qualification of the M3/CB Fools' Licence) exhibit behavioural traits - infantile outbursts, deliberately insulting tirades and vicious temper tantrums - that one would expect only from the children in their care. Is it time for all _REAL_ Radio Hams to refuse to have anything to do with such mental derangees and their charges, and institute an age bar, perhaps 16-years-old, below which we will not associate in any way? Only then, by making it clear that young children are not, and cannot be in any way, part of the society of adult technocrats that is Radio Hammery will be be able to influence them not to attempt to join us until they have achieved maturity? Word will soon get around if children who have been conned by the various Billies-No_Mates into going for the M3/CB fools' Licence find that no-one will speak to them. |
shit
Orator For Decency wrote: At 590 posts in only 12 days, and a considerable undertow of thread drift, perhaps it is time to remind ourselves of the high moral stance of the OP..... what high moral stand? |
shit
On 7 Jan 2006 03:57:33 -0800, "Orator For Decency"
wrote: At 590 posts in only 12 days, and a considerable undertow of thread drift, perhaps it is time to remind ourselves of the high moral stance of the OP..... hsit and hate filled **** at that why are you such a BAD hams? everyone should be advised that The following person has been advocating the abuse of elders making false charges of child rape, rape in general forges post and name he may also be making flase reports of abusing other in order to attak and cow his foes he also shows signs of being dangerously unstable he regualrly makes threats of aresst or of the power to confine folks againsthere will he is lying of course STEVEN J ROBESON 151 12TH AVE NW WINCHESTER TN 37398 931-967-6282 well stevie you assked for it you got it Mark Morgan _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
sh*t
wrote:
everyone should be advised that The following person has been advocating the abuse of elders making false charges of child rape, rape in general forges post and name he may also be making flase reports of abusing other in order to attak and cow his foes he also shows signs of being dangerously unstable he regualrly makes threats of aresst or of the power to confine folks againsthere will Everytime you post that it reminds me of the following newpaper article: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet message results in libel award (AP) Richmond, Va -- A former doctor at Emory University School of Medicine has won what his lawyers say is the first libel verdict based on an anonymouse Internet message. A U.S. District Court judge last week awarded $675,000 to Dr. Sam D. Graham Jr., who resigned as chairman of the school's urology department in July 1998. (snip) The judge called the Internet messages "about as despicable as any course of conduct that one could engage in." Graham's attorneys, D. Alan Rudlin and J. Burke McCormick, said they believe the judgement is the first libel verdict based on an anonymous Internet message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You should be able to pull up the full article from the names mentioned above. Jeff KH6O WC2XSR/12 -- Chief Petty Officer, U.S. Coast Guard Mathematics Lecturer, University of Hawaii System |
sh*t
Walt Davidson wrote:
On 8 Jan 2006 06:32:36 GMT, (Jeffrey Herman) wrote: Internet message results in libel award (AP) Richmond, Va -- A former doctor at Emory University School of Medicine has won what his lawyers say is the first libel verdict based on an anonymouse Internet message. A U.S. District Court judge last week awarded $675,000 to Dr. Sam D. Graham Jr., who resigned as chairman of the school's urology department in July 1998. (snip) The judge called the Internet messages "about as despicable as any course of conduct that one could engage in." Yes, Jeff, but the trouble is that most posters of such anonymous garbage are losers without two cents to rub together, so suing them is a waste of time. 73 de G3NYY Their ISP might prove to be a little richer. Just a thought. vy 73 Andy, M1EBV |
Libel lawsuit
Andy Cowley wrote:
Walt Davidson wrote: Jeffrey Herman wrote: Internet message results in libel award Yes, Jeff, but the trouble is that most posters of such anonymous garbage are losers without two cents to rub together, so suing them is a waste of time. Their ISP might prove to be a little richer. Just a thought. The nice thing about a civil lawsuit is that the huge fine can be attached to defendant's wages; for every dollar earned, so many cents go to paying the plaintiff the awarded amount. Also, if property is sold, the funds are seized and again given to the plaintiff. 73, Jeff KH6O WC2XSR/12 -- Chief Petty Officer, U.S. Coast Guard Mathematics Lecturer, University of Hawaii System |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
wrote: On 6 Jan 2006 05:48:55 -0800, "K4YZ" wrote: an_old_friend wrote: wrote: pointyhead wrote: The Magnum wrote: No, sorry your not. Im not going to pass on who it was out of courtesy apart from telling you it wasn't him. Ha! You wouldn't tell me anyway! I'll bet though it was some lazy assed class b with a chip on his shoulder or an M3/Cb'er! Oh dear, Pointyhead really must have a problem. maybe this will let this thread die Maybe you'll tell us what gave you the right to decide? the ablity to act gives me the power what gives you the power to lie and call it censorship? The "power" is called the "truth". Calling your actions censorship was NOT a lie. You attempted to interfere in another person's expression of thought. That's censorship. in your case the ability to type I think what you meant to say was "...in your case the ability to type BETTER THAN I".... Not that it's that hard to do. Steve, K4YZ |
your point jeff?
On 10 Jan 2006 05:58:52 GMT, (Jeffrey Herman)
wrote: Andy Cowley wrote: Walt Davidson wrote: Jeffrey Herman wrote: Internet message results in libel award Yes, Jeff, but the trouble is that most posters of such anonymous garbage are losers without two cents to rub together, so suing them is a waste of time. Their ISP might prove to be a little richer. Just a thought. The nice thing about a civil lawsuit is that the huge fine can be attached to defendant's wages; for every dollar earned, so many cents go to paying the plaintiff the awarded amount. Also, if property is sold, the funds are seized and again given to the plaintiff. your point? after all what you sarted has realy driffted the thing thing stev would need for example was case he was being slandered/libeled you are jumping ahead to a judgment 73, Jeff KH6O WC2XSR/12 _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
Oh and having someone kick off the Internet ISN'T cenorship steve??
right? Todd N9OGL |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
N9OGL wrote: Oh and having someone kick off the Internet ISN'T cenorship steve?? right? Not in your case it wasn't, Toiddie. And it won't be in Markie's, either. Don't sign contracts, lease agreements or license agreements if you don't agree with the conditions, Toiddie. It really is THAT simple. Steve, K4YZ |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
Your a dickhead steve, and one of the biggest Cenor on the internet. I
hope one of these days AOL kicks your ass off the internet for all the abuse you've affected on all he users on here. Todd N9OGL |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
On 10 Jan 2006 08:45:00 -0800, "K4YZ" wrote:
N9OGL wrote: Oh and having someone kick off the Internet ISN'T cenorship steve?? right? Not in your case it wasn't, Toiddie. any interfence is censorship steve according to you And it won't be in Markie's, either. Don't sign contracts, lease agreements or license agreements if you don't agree with the conditions, Toiddie. why don't you foolw those of AOL It really is THAT simple. Steve, K4YZ _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
|
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
Not in your case it wasn't, Toiddie.
For what steve, fake email which were probably sent by you. Steve, that is a standized contract that ALL ISP go by. Todd N9OGL |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
N9OGL wrote: Not in your case it wasn't, Toiddie. For what steve, fake email which were probably sent by you. Steve, that is a standized contract that ALL ISP go by. No, Toiddie. None of the "fake email" were sent by me. Yes, Toiddie, each of the ISP's has a "contract" that pretty much looks like the other guys...And as such if you don't like what you see, DON'T sign it! Steve, K4YZ |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
K4YZ wrote: wrote: On 10 Jan 2006 08:45:00 -0800, "K4YZ" wrote: N9OGL wrote: Oh and having someone kick off the Internet ISN'T cenorship steve?? right? Not in your case it wasn't, Toiddie. any interfence is censorship steve according to you Still making stuff up, Markie? nope just repeting your own word And it won't be in Markie's, either. Don't sign contracts, lease agreements or license agreements if you don't agree with the conditions, Toiddie. why don't you foolw those of AOL Why would I want to fool anyone at AOL, Markie? why do you break the ToS of AOL? Is it April yet? Steve, K4YZ |
To Our Colleagues in the UK...Sorry For Mark Morgan's (KB9RQZ) Censorship Attempts...We Don't Like Him Either.
an_old_friend wrote: K4YZ wrote: wrote: why don't you foolw those of AOL Why would I want to fool anyone at AOL, Markie? why do you break the ToS of AOL? Why do you make false accusations, Markie? Steve, K4YZ |
Libel lawsuit
|
Tracking Toiddies Twisted Tales
N9OGL wrote: In article , (Jeffrey Herman) wrote: Andy Cowley wrote: Walt Davidson wrote: Jeffrey Herman wrote: Internet message results in libel award Yes, Jeff, but the trouble is that most posters of such anonymous garbage are losers without two cents to rub together, so suing them is a waste of time. Their ISP might prove to be a little richer. Just a thought. The nice thing about a civil lawsuit is that the huge fine can be attached to defendant's wages; for every dollar earned, so many cents go to paying the plaintiff the awarded amount. Also, if property is sold, the funds are seized and again given to the plaintiff. 73, Jeff KH6O WC2XSR/12 Jeff, I really doubt anything will be done about it, I've been complaining about a moron posting my Copyrighted material on here and on other newsgroups and nothing has been done about it yet. Maybe they investigated and found out the moron was the one making the complaint. If I were you, Toiddie, the LAST thing I'd want to do is bring the attention of federal law enforcement officers to my attention. Steve, K4YZ |
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