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Old August 22nd 06, 10:24 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.scanner,rec.radio.swap
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 79
Default If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die?

Yep, and a single point mentioning that if it were anything other than a
simple hobby, your arguments would matter.

But since it isn't...


rb


"Al Klein" wrote in message
...
On 2 Aug 2006 20:05:21 -0700, wrote:

Al Klein wrote:
On 23 Jul 2006 07:26:05 -0700,
wrote:

how balanced is to to place CW over all over ham knowledge?


No one is, any more than by requiring people to know the law one is
putting the law "over all ham knowledge".


CW is pass/fail. To fail CW denies all HF privs (except for Alaska).


Theory is also pass/fail. To fail to get the required number of
correct answers denies all privs - HF, VHF, UHF ...


There is no pass/fail practical for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY, FAX,
Packet, PSK, etc, etc, etc.


There's no test at all, so those claiming that the reason they want a
test for CW dropped because it's not "modern" have no argument - they
want no test for FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is also pretty old hat),
packet, PSK, etc. They want no test at all, unless they can memorize
a few answers to "pass" it.

How progressive is it?


How progressive is it to not require people to know ... oh, yeah,
that's progressive, since the new thing is to hand out licenses
because people have some kind of "right" to get on the air.


Then why is it with the prospect of losing the CW Exam, that you'se
guys want to "beef up" the written exams?


We don't.


That is not true.


Sure it is. "Beefing up" the written exam is a counter to "drop CW
because it's old fashioned". If you want modern you want the testing
to be turned from CW to modern modes. Those who want CW dropped just
want what they can't memorize dropped so they can get a ticket without
really being tested on anything. Actually knowing anything is so old
fashioned, isn't it?

We want to get back the level it used to be before it was
dumbed down to the point that you could almost pass it if you never
heard of the FCC, ham radio or electronics.


You're referring to the Conditional license, right?


No, I'm not addressing *where* the test is held at all - I'm
addressing *whether* there's any real test, which there isn't, except
for CW right now. Spitting out something you memorized is only a test
of memory.

Just by guessing at the
answers. It used to require that you draw (was it 3?) schematics.


You tell me? Was it 2 or was it 3?


I don't remember after almost 50 years - but I could still draw them
today, and it's not a test of remembering what's on the test, it's a
test of knowing what's in a radio.

From scratch. Let's see how many people could do that today. A
Colpitts oscillator, a Hartley oscillator and some other circuit that
I've forgotten at the moment.


You should self-modify your license and cease amateur operation until
you remember.


Why? Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge.

The amateur is self-policing, and you no longer meet your own standard.


Sure I do. The test wasn't to remember what circuits to draw, it was
to draw them. And I can draw them any time.

They're still as relevant today as they were 50 years ago.


Other things are relevant today that weren't even known 50 years ago.


So let's have them on the test.

Oops, that's right - no more relevant testing, isn't that what people
are asking for? Just give me the answers so I can memorize them and
pick them out on the test.

how loyal is it to denny the nation the benifits of allowing more
operators


What "benefits" does the country get from more people using radios
who
don't know the first thing about them? (Whatever "denny" means.)


It's always been that way. You could even buy Heathkits already
assembled.


But you had to actually *know* a little theory to use one legally.


No you didn't.


Yes, you did - you had to pass a test to show that you did. All you
have to do now is memorize a few answers.

I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military.
I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce
power once.


But you had to learn how to use the radios. Hams today don't - they
memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no
understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn.

That's exactly what he's talking about. Give someone a radio and a
"license" to use it and he'll "acquire the skill to be ready for
service to country and community". That's what Mark said, right up
above. How does one acquire skill by playing radio?


We self-train.


You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted
here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want
to get on the air. Period.

It is a continuous process of improvements. You
mistakenly believe that at the conclusion of The Exam, the "operator"
is 100%.


And you mistakenly believe that most hams today want to learn how to
operate properly. Listen to 75 some evenings.

But that's what Mark and his ilk want - we'll have "skilled operators"
if we allow people to buy radios and put them on the air with no skill
or knowledge. By osmosis? Or by magic?


I've listened to emergency responders on a scanner before. They don't
use Morse Code, they don't use CW. They use FM/Voice. Somehow they
are effective at it, not having taken a Morse Code test. How can this
be?


They were trained.

So you'd get a license not knowing CW, build a radio (you couldn't buy
one then) and ... what? Sit and look at it. Some things are just too
obvious to need mentioning.


Please diagram that radio from "Scratch."


Any time. Filter or phasing? BFO receive or quadrature detection?
I've designed them, built them and used them, and still could.

Evidently not, or I'd be the only one in the world advocating that a
test should actually test for something. There are actually millions
of us who don't think lack of instant gratification is the worst thing
in the world.


Dial 911 and tell the operator that you don't need instant
gratification, take your time.


Very bad example of an attempt at sarcasm and a misunderstanding of
"gratification".

What next? DXCC awards for those who *want* to work 100 countries?


You seem to be confused. DXCC is an award offered by the ARRL, not the
FCC. It has nothing to do with licensing.


But an award for wanting has to do with "I want it so it's my right to
have it", which is what I'm talking about. No one has any "right" to
get on the air.



  #492   Report Post  
Old August 22nd 06, 10:31 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.scanner,rec.radio.swap
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 79
Default If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die?

Won't work.... memorizing is learning. You know where you live because you
memorized it. You know what a diode is because you read it somewhere.
Reading a book or taking a class on radio would require you retain
[memorize] what you are told or read.

The information on radio should be kept secret, and the real test would be
this:
Here's a radio. Take it with you. Come back in 30 days and explain how it
works.

Then you get your owner's license, and can buy a radio.

Next test is to listen on-air to the CW [as there is no reason to use phone,
if you already speak a language.] and figure out the code
without any text or charts.

Then you get your operator's license.

When you can do that, then you can act like you've accomplished something.

rb



"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
. ..
K4YZ wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode
sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize
the individual characters?


Probably, Cecil, since it would then make it difficult to pass the
test.


You missed the point. The Morse code skill exam requires
memorizing the characters. Memorizing is being condemned
as an evil act. Since memorizing is evil, the Morse code
skill exam should be the first thing to be eliminated.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



  #493   Report Post  
Old August 22nd 06, 10:38 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.scanner,rec.radio.swap
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 79
Default If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die?

This reply has absolutely no significance or meaning. It was just a good
place to add a reply.
Helps even out the sawtooth shape of the posts as I scroll down them.
rb


"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Bill Turner wrote:
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

On 4 Aug 2006 14:18:12 -0700, "an old freind"
wrote:

i don't it was pretty for me one day work on one of these bike races
the served organizers heard the reapteer CW id asked what it read I
said hame were no longer required to be to read them and I could not,
time change ignorance fixed


------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------

Text like the above is what comes out when I try to copy CW.

can you still read it when you do it

Bill, W6WRT
20 WPM Extra, but just barely




  #494   Report Post  
Old August 22nd 06, 11:10 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.scanner,rec.radio.swap
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,027
Default If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die?

From: Woody on Tues, Aug 22 2006 12:50 pm


The Titanic knew their coordinates.... didn't slow the influx of H20....
The responding ships had radios too... didn't turn their props any
faster....


The year was 1912...NINETY-FOUR YEARS AGO.

Answer to the question.... there was no system then.


The predecessor organization for SOLAS had not yet made 500 KHz
the international distress and safety frequency. "SOLAS" is an
acronym for Safety Of Life At Sea.

CW can punch through if there is a human on the other end, where GPS/packet
says 'no signal'....
GPS is faster, where CW takes longer....
so one is obsolete, the other inferior.


The International Maritime Community settled the 'morse issue.'
They DROPPED it in favor of GMDSS (Global Marine Distress and
Safety System), a semi-automated system which can be operated
by anyone of the bridge crew on a ship (it needs little
instruction on use). GMDSS messages are automatically routed
to ground stations (note plural) via satellite relay. Those
ground stations can coordinate rescue missions.

A shipboard GMDS station doesn't HAVE to have a GPS receiver
to feed it position data but all those which have one have
no complaint about this alleged "loss of signal." Position
data can be entered manually to a GMDS station. The bridge
crew will have a running record of the ship's position in
either event.

The United States Coast Guard has DROPPED continuous
monitoring of the 500 KHz distress frequency some years
ago. Several other countries have done so.

A following question is WHO will you believe on the efficacy
of communications? The entire international maritime
community or a bunch of myth-happy amateur morsemen?

In a sentient, intelligent mind, ANY form of communications
is good for use in matters involving life and death. The
FCC thinks (rightly) so and says as much in Part 1 of Title
47 C.F.R. [Part 97 is not the entirety of regulations on
amateur radio in the USA]

--------------------

In a preceding message set:

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
Dave wrote:
David G. Nagel wrote:


A ham operator intercepted the SOS from the RMS Titanic.


Yep!! It happened once!


It happened NINETY-FOUR YEARS AGO.

If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?


I have to fault Cecil's erudite and intelligent mindset
on that...although his motor looks good in his picture. :-)

One CANNOT base any intelligent argument about ALTERNATE
universes of different times and places. It hasn't
happened in our present time-space continuum.

In 1912 "radio" was in its infancy, having been first shown
and demonstrated as a communications medium just 16 years
prior. There were extremely few ships which had vacuum
tubes as active devices to aid those first "radios." The
tube was only 6 years old, the triode invented in 1906.

To argue about "GPS" (which is not an integral part of
GMDSS but can be) versus morse code is ludicrous. GPS
relies on a time-frequency standard within each of the
24 GPS satellites which is comparable to the best time-
frequency source at NIST. [the quartz crystal
oscillator wasn't yet invented in 1912] Each satellite
needs solid-state circuitry to make it function within
a relatively small package. [the best "solid-state"
device of 1912 was a galena crystal detector with its
famous "cat's whisker"] The whole GPSS needed rocketry
advanced enough to put all the satellites into orbit.
[rocketry wasn't perfected for that purpose until after
WW2] Those rockets needed launch guidance aided by
radar systems. [radar, or rather a primitive system of
it, wasn't tried until 1932 in a harbor area of France]

However, "morse code" was used in the landline Morse-Vail
Telegraph System working before the American Civil War
and simple enough to turn a spark transmitter on and off
as on the Titanic.

Which system is presently inferior and virtually obsolete?


On-off keyed CW.

Except in the mindset of the ARRL. The IARU knows better.



  #496   Report Post  
Old August 22nd 06, 11:19 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.scanner,rec.radio.swap
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Default If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die?

From: on Mon, Aug 21 2006 6:30 pm

wrote:
From: an old friend on Mon, Aug 21 2006 3:16 pm
wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm


If the league pushes the morse testing issue too hard, it will become
obvious to the 25% that are members.


I don't think so. The Amateur Radiotelegraphy Society is very
firmly SET in their ideas of keeping the "heritage" and
"tradition" of being a living museum of archaic radio. Those
firm believers and worshippers at the Church of St. Hiram are
disciples and they haven't had their last supper yet.


I have no objection to them trying to prservs thier mode the ARS is big
enough even for unproductive thing


It's "minority rule" when ARRL lobbies for preservation of
morse code test for any amateur radio license class. The
ARRL membership is slightly less than a quarter of all US
amateur radio licensees.


Don't know if you've heard yet, but the ARRL and robesin announced that
MARS and TSA have an agreement for armageddon communications.


Heh heh, I wouldn't doubt it... :-)


[via "giant meteor bounce?" ... off the earth, that is? :-) ]


I thought Robesin had put on his (invisible) USMC uniform and
was busy pounding brass with the USCG offshore from Beirut to
evacuate US civilians? :-)


now that remark I must take you to task for


the last thing we want to sugest that robeson might wear is something
invisible now that image IS a sexauly distrubing one


Ahem...my reference was the old fairy tale, "The Emperor's New
Clothes." :-)


i thougt as much OTOH the image of robeson nude is still well


To me it is UNwell... :-)

That's the one where a full-of-himself ruler ordered some new
clothes and the tailor buttered him up (while not sewing any
new clothes) so much that the Emperor bought into this pandering
to his ego and appeared in public with his "new clothes" (he was
naked). Needless to say, the public laughed and laughed at this
ridiculous spectacle. :-)


indeed i laugh at him myself ruefully

with the added though that this is thebest the procoder can muster


Robesin is merely a product of the "incentive" licensing
system where all those who hunger for being a "somebody"
can get a Title - Rank - Privilege through a singular skill.

I didn't make that system, neither did you, neither did
anyone in these four forums. The FCC took a big chunk out
of it (license classes and morsemanship skill) with the
Restructuring of 2000 and that ****ed off the Title-Rank-
Status seekers. Devout morsemen are angry and venting steam
because their self-esteem has fallen.

Robeson has been all full of himself in here about his alleged
"USMC service" yet he has presented zero-point-zero evidence
from anyone else (or any legitimate agency) that he ever
served on active USMC duty for any of his claimed "18 years."


Simply amazing. EIGHTEEN years alleged on active duty and
he can't supply a single photo or document to support his
claim? In November of this year I can truthfully say I've
been in the southern California aerospace business 50 years.
I have all sorts of documentation and photos on that which
I may fully digitize some day (some are already digitized).
Some time ago I posted my resume in here...which only made
Robesin ballistic then since he has NO comparable
experience in industry and cannot prove any radio experience
other than amateur and alleged "chief operator" status at
some small MARS station long ago. [that was before his
less-than-a-half-year as a purchasing agent at a small
set top box maker]

In another recent post, Robesin keeps referring to a "CV."
That's an acronym for the Latin 'curriculum vitae,' a list
of life experiences (education, work experience). In the
electronics industry, indeed in MOST industries, those
applying for jobs don't present a curriculum vitae, just a
RESUME of education-work experience. Some academics may
use "CV" but Personnel departments still look over resumes.
Just one more little gaffe on Robesin's part, trying to
LOOK experienced when he is NOT.

Even though he NOW thinks of himself AS the amateur radio
service personified (anything against him is somehow against
ALL radio amateurs), he is still parodying the "Emperor."


Another sign of his megalomania, purporting to "represent
all" and, by extension, anyone against Him is "against all
radio amateurs." Robesin desperately needs SOMETHING to
hold up his self-esteem and he uses amateur radio for that
selfish purpose. It is like his infamous snot-on-the-
moustache CAP flight suit picture, big on rank, title, and
with implications of status. CAP is NOT about amateur
radio but Robesin keeps on harping about it as if it
"proved" something about his amateur radio abilities. He
does the same with his "ER nurse qualifications" but those
have absolutely nothing to do with radio, amateur or
professional.

But, challenge Robesin or call him in error and one will be
inundated with personal insults. Robeson MUST be right and
he MUST rule. Civil comportment be damned with Robeson in
newsgroups. Those newsgroups were (in his mind) created to
showcase Him?



  #498   Report Post  
Old August 22nd 06, 11:38 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.scanner,rec.radio.swap,alt.military.cap
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Default If Lennie Anderson Had To Tell The Truth Once, Would Bill Clinton Swear Off Big Mac's and White House Interns? With "Engineers" Like Lennie, It's No Wonder Everything Says "Made In Someplace Other Than The United States"


K4YZ wrote:
tried the same old tired rhetoric:
But, challenge (Anderson) or call him in error and one will be

inundated with personal insults. (Anderson) MUST be right and
he MUST rule. Civil comportment be damned with (Anderson) in
newsgroups. Those newsgroups were (in his mind) created to
showcase Him?


Yep.

agreeing for once get help

but titles like that are Robeson stock in trade my content in his posts
just ranting on and on about epople instead of Issues

  #500   Report Post  
Old August 23rd 06, 12:16 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.policy,alt.military.cap
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Default If Lennie Anderson Had To Tell The Truth Once, Would Bill Clinton Swear Off Big Mac's and White House Interns? With "Engineers" Like Lennie, It's No Wonder Everything Says "Made In Someplace Other Than The United States"


K4YZ wrote:
an old freind wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
tried the same old tired rhetoric:
But, challenge (Anderson) or call him in error and one will be
inundated with personal insults. (Anderson) MUST be right and
he MUST rule. Civil comportment be damned with (Anderson) in
newsgroups. Those newsgroups were (in his mind) created to
showcase Him?

Yep.


agreeing for once get help


Get help for what?

well a pro needs to way but Id say meglomanina paranoia, pathological
lying for starts

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