What next , hambrecht ? Are we going to discuss rhombics ? and what would
that have to do with the average scanner user, that uses a 1/4 or 1/2 wave
vertical for an antenna ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So far, we have heard from
people about their "hf wire antennas", we have heard from you about
"plumbers delight" beams (which , by the way still need a matching system )
, and we have now heard this "the antenna is directly grounded" nonsense
from you, all over again. Long wires ? I was probably running one when you
were still in diapers....
By the way, i never said the shield on the coax "contributes to the noise".
that is not what i said. I said, for all practical purposes, that if you
dont ground the damned coax shield, then it electrically does NOT EXIST.
Sure you have a ground on it in most cases , if it is hooked to the rig. the
rig either has a three wire cord that provides a ground (not to mention the
white lead in the ac cable, that is hooked to the same place), but you
should have grounded the rig's chassis to ground yourself anyway, to shorten
the ground path ! (you DID ground the rig, didnt you ?) What was that you
say ? the rig runs off a 12-volt power supply, and there are only two leads
to the rig, plus and minus ? then you better go out there and drive a ground
rod ! because the CHASSIS Of THE RIG IS NOT GROUNDED ! (and neither is the
shield on the coax ! ) It's an epiphany. Oops sorry about those 10-dollar
words ! I got that bad habit by actually studying to GET MY LICENSE. No dick
bash books around here..... quite a few Bill Orr, ARRL, Bill Cheek, etc...
but no bash.. hmmm.

"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
byt he way, what do you think this "counterpoise" IS ?

As far as common mode noise, i was not referring to common mode noise. I
was
referring to noise that penetrates the un-grounded shield , which is about
as effective as a shield when not grounded as wet toilet paper. All this
info was well known and written about 50 years ago . Where have you been ?
Now, the fact is, when you ground the antenna pipe , on a 1/4 or 1/2 wave
vetical antenna , you usually ground the shield of the coax also , since
the
GROUND radials on these antennas are designed to be hooked up to GROUND.
They therefore are usually made so that these ground radials have a
connection directly to the anntenna mount where is clamps to the pipe, in
order to facilitate this grounding. I cant believe i have to keep
explaining
this stuff , that any NOVICE had to know a few years back, to you people.
Your wonderful "j-pole" does NOT operate at ground, since it is a stub
tuned
antenna, and this is what provides the isolation for the active element,
jesus , get a book and read it once in a while , will you, instead of
spending all your time on here talking sheer idiocy ?

"Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message
...
May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at
DC
ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight"
construction
come to mind as I type.

As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield
and
the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from
the
antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary
to
provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing
one.
The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a
bleed
off path.

No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise.



"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna.
As
far
as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your
antenna
firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at
the
bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this
will
ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the
antenna,
and
usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more
important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of
the
coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from
penetrating
into
the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The
signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds
of
times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to
over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually
acts
like an antenna when the shield is not at ground).
This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio ,
especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in
the
city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc
"Bob Parnass" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote:

... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build
up
on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work?
Anyone
using
them?

If you want to avoid building up a static charge
on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground."
Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground.

I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those
you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap
inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector
with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground
at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more
protection.

I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver.
It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is
show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html

Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use,
especially during lightning season.

--


================================================== =======================
Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User
http://parnass.com

Zombie Wolf wrote:

What next , hambrecht ? Are we going to discuss rhombics ? and what would
that have to do with the average scanner user, that uses a 1/4 or 1/2 wave
vertical for an antenna ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So far, we have heard from
people about their "hf wire antennas", we have heard from you about
"plumbers delight" beams (which , by the way still need a matching system )
, and we have now heard this "the antenna is directly grounded" nonsense
from you, all over again. Long wires ? I was probably running one when you
were still in diapers....
By the way, i never said the shield on the coax "contributes to the noise".
that is not what i said. I said, for all practical purposes, that if you
dont ground the damned coax shield, then it electrically does NOT EXIST.
Sure you have a ground on it in most cases , if it is hooked to the rig. the
rig either has a three wire cord that provides a ground (not to mention the
white lead in the ac cable, that is hooked to the same place), but you
should have grounded the rig's chassis to ground yourself anyway, to shorten
the ground path ! (you DID ground the rig, didnt you ?) What was that you
say ? the rig runs off a 12-volt power supply, and there are only two leads
to the rig, plus and minus ? then you better go out there and drive a ground
rod ! because the CHASSIS Of THE RIG IS NOT GROUNDED ! (and neither is the
shield on the coax ! ) It's an epiphany. Oops sorry about those 10-dollar
words ! I got that bad habit by actually studying to GET MY LICENSE.

Drivers license?

No dick
bash books around here..... quite a few Bill Orr, ARRL, Bill Cheek, etc...
but no bash.. hmmm.

I know I shouldn't feed the squirrels, but...

All those books, all that education, and you still don't understand the simple
concepts of DC ground and RF ground.

Amazing, truly amazing.



"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
byt he way, what do you think this "counterpoise" IS ?

As far as common mode noise, i was not referring to common mode noise. I
was
referring to noise that penetrates the un-grounded shield , which is about
as effective as a shield when not grounded as wet toilet paper. All this
info was well known and written about 50 years ago . Where have you been ?
Now, the fact is, when you ground the antenna pipe , on a 1/4 or 1/2 wave
vetical antenna , you usually ground the shield of the coax also , since
the
GROUND radials on these antennas are designed to be hooked up to GROUND.
They therefore are usually made so that these ground radials have a
connection directly to the anntenna mount where is clamps to the pipe, in
order to facilitate this grounding. I cant believe i have to keep
explaining
this stuff , that any NOVICE had to know a few years back, to you people.
Your wonderful "j-pole" does NOT operate at ground, since it is a stub
tuned
antenna, and this is what provides the isolation for the active element,
jesus , get a book and read it once in a while , will you, instead of
spending all your time on here talking sheer idiocy ?

"Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message
...
May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at
DC
ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight"
construction
come to mind as I type.

As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield
and
the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from
the
antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary
to
provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing
one.
The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a
bleed
off path.

No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise.



"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna.
As
far
as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your
antenna
firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at
the
bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this
will
ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the
antenna,
and
usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more
important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of
the
coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from
penetrating
into
the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The
signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds
of
times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to
over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually
acts
like an antenna when the shield is not at ground).
This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio ,
especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in
the
city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc
"Bob Parnass" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote:

... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build
up
on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work?
Anyone
using
them?

If you want to avoid building up a static charge
on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground."
Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground.

I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those
you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap
inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector
with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground
at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more
protection.

I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver.
It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is
show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html

Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use,
especially during lightning season.

--


================================================== =======================
Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User
http://parnass.com

On 2 meters I use a copper J-pole. The entire antenna is soldered pipe and
any point can be measured to ground with an ohm meter and is at DC ground.
The antenna is fed a few inches up from the bottom with the braid going to
one point on the DC ground and the center lead to another point on the DC
ground. The RF impedance is in the area of 50 Ohms.

I have no earthly idea what you are referring to when you use the term
"reactive isolation". Once any reactive element is brought into the
equation, we have left the DC world.

DC ground is included in no antenna equation I am familiar with, but I stand
ready to be proven wrong.

I reply not to be argumentative, but in the furtherance of knowledge.
"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
You can take exception all you want, but if you study any antenna design
you
will find that it either has grounded elements, and the active element is
not grounded, or it has some kind of reactive isolation of the active
element from ground. the antenna simply cannot function unless one of
these
conditions exist. period.

"Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message
...
May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at
DC
ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight"
construction
come to mind as I type.

As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield
and
the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from
the
antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary
to
provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing
one.
The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a
bleed
off path.

No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise.



"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna.
As
far
as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your
antenna
firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at
the
bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this
will
ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the
antenna,
and
usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more
important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of
the
coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from
penetrating
into
the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The
signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds
of
times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to
over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually
acts
like an antenna when the shield is not at ground).
This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio ,
especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in
the
city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc
"Bob Parnass" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote:

... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build
up
on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work?
Anyone
using
them?

If you want to avoid building up a static charge
on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground."
Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground.

I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those
you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap
inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector
with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground
at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more
protection.

I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver.
It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is
show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html

Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use,
especially during lightning season.

--


================================================== =======================
Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User
http://parnass.com

Probably time to end this, as it seems to be turning personal on your part.
For Information purposes I have only been licensed since 1956, so you
probably have been doing it longer than me.

Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
What next , hambrecht ? Are we going to discuss rhombics ? and what would
that have to do with the average scanner user, that uses a 1/4 or 1/2 wave
vertical for an antenna ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So far, we have heard from
people about their "hf wire antennas", we have heard from you about
"plumbers delight" beams (which , by the way still need a matching
system )
, and we have now heard this "the antenna is directly grounded" nonsense
from you, all over again. Long wires ? I was probably running one when you
were still in diapers....
By the way, i never said the shield on the coax "contributes to the
noise".
that is not what i said. I said, for all practical purposes, that if you
dont ground the damned coax shield, then it electrically does NOT EXIST.
Sure you have a ground on it in most cases , if it is hooked to the rig.
the
rig either has a three wire cord that provides a ground (not to mention
the
white lead in the ac cable, that is hooked to the same place), but you
should have grounded the rig's chassis to ground yourself anyway, to
shorten
the ground path ! (you DID ground the rig, didnt you ?) What was that you
say ? the rig runs off a 12-volt power supply, and there are only two
leads
to the rig, plus and minus ? then you better go out there and drive a
ground
rod ! because the CHASSIS Of THE RIG IS NOT GROUNDED ! (and neither is the
shield on the coax ! ) It's an epiphany. Oops sorry about those 10-dollar
words ! I got that bad habit by actually studying to GET MY LICENSE. No
dick
bash books around here..... quite a few Bill Orr, ARRL, Bill Cheek,
etc...
but no bash.. hmmm.

"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
byt he way, what do you think this "counterpoise" IS ?

As far as common mode noise, i was not referring to common mode noise. I
was
referring to noise that penetrates the un-grounded shield , which is
about
as effective as a shield when not grounded as wet toilet paper. All this
info was well known and written about 50 years ago . Where have you been
?
Now, the fact is, when you ground the antenna pipe , on a 1/4 or 1/2
wave
vetical antenna , you usually ground the shield of the coax also , since
the
GROUND radials on these antennas are designed to be hooked up to GROUND.
They therefore are usually made so that these ground radials have a
connection directly to the anntenna mount where is clamps to the pipe,
in
order to facilitate this grounding. I cant believe i have to keep
explaining
this stuff , that any NOVICE had to know a few years back, to you
people.
Your wonderful "j-pole" does NOT operate at ground, since it is a stub
tuned
antenna, and this is what provides the isolation for the active element,
jesus , get a book and read it once in a while , will you, instead of
spending all your time on here talking sheer idiocy ?

"Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message
...
May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated
at
DC
ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight"
construction
come to mind as I type.

As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the
shield
and
the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground
from
the
antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is
necessary
to
provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing
one.
The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a
bleed
off path.

No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise.



"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an
antenna.
As
far
as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your
antenna
firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe
at
the
bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this
will
ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the
antenna,
and
usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more
important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield
of
the
coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from
penetrating
into
the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever.
The
signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are
hundreds
of
times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend
to
over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually
acts
like an antenna when the shield is not at ground).
This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio ,
especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like
in
the
city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc
"Bob Parnass" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote:

... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build
up
on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work?
Anyone
using
them?

If you want to avoid building up a static charge
on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground."
Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground.

I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those
you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap
inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector
with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground
at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more
protection.

I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver.
It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is
show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html

Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use,
especially during lightning season.

--


================================================== =======================
Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User
http://parnass.com

I see that Zombie Wolf is carrying on in the finest Bill Cheek
tradition here on r.r.s. Bill loved raunchy foul mouthed personal
attacks and perpetrated them at every available opportunity (which
was most of the time). I suspect he's up there somewhere in heaven
rolling on the floor in laughter every time he reads a Zombie Wolf
post. It's almost as if he never died. Bill would be so proud of
Zombie Wolf. Now if the Zombie would just site some references
instead of making groundless assertions, we could all have a good
laugh.

yep and then i can spend a month educating you , as well. I dont think
"damned" really falls into the category you are talking about since it is
even allowed by the FCC , Emily Post.

As far as Bill Cheek being proud of me, well, that would be a great honor.
Unlike YOU, he actually knew somethng about the subject at hand ...

wrote in message
...
I see that Zombie Wolf is carrying on in the finest Bill Cheek
tradition here on r.r.s. Bill loved raunchy foul mouthed personal
attacks and perpetrated them at every available opportunity (which
was most of the time). I suspect he's up there somewhere in heaven
rolling on the floor in laughter every time he reads a Zombie Wolf
post. It's almost as if he never died. Bill would be so proud of
Zombie Wolf. Now if the Zombie would just site some references
instead of making groundless assertions, we could all have a good
laugh.

Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some books
on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then
move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get
"Building and using your own baluns" from them. That ought to keep you busy
for at least the next millenimum. Then you can try a few Bill Orr books ,
just to round you out . since Bill Orr was quite a prolific (and
knowledgable) writer and authority on just about any facet of radio, you
have your work cut out for you there. Then you can pick up a few Bill Cheek
volumes , (Another good solid source of info), if you are very lucky, and
maybe his excellent newsletter, if you can find someone willing to part with
theirs (I'm not). That about wraps it up for "references", pal. I have a
lot more stuff, but for a beginner like you, these will provide a solid
grounding (pun intended). I doubt you are going to grasp this stuff anytime
in the near future, since if you didnt grasp the previous, simple to
understand posts, it's unlikely that you are going to grasp the difference
between balanced and unblanced lines , resonance vs non-resonant, smith
charts, reactance, tuned circuits, velocity factors, the superhetrodyne
reciever, Q factors, or about 300 other concepts that are about 14 stories
over your head. But dont let it stop you from at least TRYING....
wrote in message
...
I see that Zombie Wolf is carrying on in the finest Bill Cheek
tradition here on r.r.s. Bill loved raunchy foul mouthed personal
attacks and perpetrated them at every available opportunity (which
was most of the time). I suspect he's up there somewhere in heaven
rolling on the floor in laughter every time he reads a Zombie Wolf
post. It's almost as if he never died. Bill would be so proud of
Zombie Wolf. Now if the Zombie would just site some references
instead of making groundless assertions, we could all have a good
laugh.

Having books and having comprehension are two different things. When asked
for a reference, one does not state a list of ARRL books.

It is this writers experience that a person that responds with vitriolic
messages and personal attacks has little else to substantiate an argument.

Your understanding of DC and RF ground is rife with misinformation, your
blustery comments to the contrary.

Had you a real grasp on the subject, you would lead us neophytes down the
path of understanding step by step.


--
BroadBand ain't a woman's musical group...


"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some
books
on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then
move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get

Having books and having comprehension are two different things. When asked
for a reference, one does not state a list of ARRL books.

It is this writers experience that a person that responds with vitriolic
messages and personal attacks has little else to substantiate an argument.

Your understanding of DC and RF ground is rife with misinformation, your
blustery comments to the contrary.

Had you a real grasp on the subject, you would lead us neophytes down the
path of understanding step by step.


--
BroadBand ain't a woman's musical group...


"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some
books
on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then
move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get

Balony. Where do you think information is gained ? And I am not going to
spend a month educating the likes of you. You are a simple agitator ,
nothing more. here is your reward ... 'PLONK'
"w4jle" wrote in message
...
Having books and having comprehension are two different things. When asked
for a reference, one does not state a list of ARRL books.

It is this writers experience that a person that responds with vitriolic
messages and personal attacks has little else to substantiate an argument.

Your understanding of DC and RF ground is rife with misinformation, your
blustery comments to the contrary.

Had you a real grasp on the subject, you would lead us neophytes down the
path of understanding step by step.


--
BroadBand ain't a woman's musical group...


"Zombie Wolf" wrote in message
...
Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some
books
on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then
move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get