"Jeff Renkin" wrote in message
...

The point just keeps flying over your head. What if someone kept
saying to you, if
you want a driver's license, you have to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics
first?

Actually Jeff, you don't get the point.

When you get the license for HF amateur operation, you get privileges that
include code. Code proficiency is part of the requirement. Code does happen
to represent a significant part of HF operation.

It has nothing to do with Egyptian Hieroglyphics, boating, GPS, driving,
etc.

It has to do with demonstrating you know what you are doing in areas that
are pertinent to the license.


craig




I bet you would be whining too, and I would love to see you ask what
learning that has to
do with getting a driver's license and then someone comes back at YOU
with: "Stop
whining, you want to drive a car, learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics."

No point to go on with anything else. You need to understand THIS
concept FIRST before
anything else.

The point just keeps flying over your head. What if someone kept
saying to you, if
you want a driver's license, you have to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics
first?

Actually Jeff, you don't get the point.

Crap, why the hell can't any of you just concentrate and deal with that point
before you avoid it and jump to something else???

When you get the license for HF amateur operation, you get privileges that
include code.

No, you have the privileges to use code on VHF and UHF if you want to and don't
ever have to pass a code test. In case you are not aware, parts of those
bands are set aside for code as well.

Code proficiency is part of the requirement.

It was part of the requirement to get a technician's class license too, wasn't
it? But that was dropped, right? It would have been dropped all across
the board for every class of license, but the international agreement between
countries was the ONLY reason it had to stay with the HF licenses. Now that
the world finally got to vote on this, they did away with the requirement.
The requirement is NO LONGER. Other countries were quick to remove the
requirement from their local laws, the US is just very slow at changing
laws. It will happen, it just takes a government like ours months of boring
useless discussion to come to an obvious conclusion. Have you ever watched
C-span? Then you would know how ****ed up our government is.

Code does happen
to represent a significant part of HF operation.

So does voice.

It has to do with demonstrating you know what you are doing in areas that
are pertinent to the license.

"Knowing what you are doing" is a technical reasoning since you are dealing
with equipment that can cause interference and even death if not used
properly. Not knowing how to send morse code properly is not going to
interfere with any other licensed services or cause anyone to die.

Now, try to answer this without avoiding it....

What if to get a driver's license, you had to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics
first?

Jeff Renkin wrote:

The point just keeps flying over your head. What if someone kept
saying to you, if
you want a driver's license, you have to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics
first?

Actually Jeff, you don't get the point.

Crap, why the hell can't any of you just concentrate and deal with that point
before you avoid it and jump to something else???

When you get the license for HF amateur operation, you get privileges that
include code.

No, you have the privileges to use code on VHF and UHF if you want to and don't
ever have to pass a code test. In case you are not aware, parts of those
bands are set aside for code as well.

Code proficiency is part of the requirement.

It was part of the requirement to get a technician's class license too, wasn't
it? But that was dropped, right? It would have been dropped all across
the board for every class of license, but the international agreement between
countries was the ONLY reason it had to stay with the HF licenses. Now that
the world finally got to vote on this, they did away with the requirement.
The requirement is NO LONGER. Other countries were quick to remove the
requirement from their local laws, the US is just very slow at changing
laws. It will happen, it just takes a government like ours months of boring
useless discussion to come to an obvious conclusion. Have you ever watched
C-span? Then you would know how ****ed up our government is.

Code does happen
to represent a significant part of HF operation.

So does voice.

It has to do with demonstrating you know what you are doing in areas that
are pertinent to the license.

"Knowing what you are doing" is a technical reasoning since you are dealing
with equipment that can cause interference and even death if not used
properly. Not knowing how to send morse code properly is not going to
interfere with any other licensed services or cause anyone to die.

Now, try to answer this without avoiding it....

What if to get a driver's license, you had to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics
first?

What if to learn Morse code, you finally had to pull your head out of your ass
Jeff?

The sound would probably equal that of Krakatoa erupting!

Steve
Holland, MI

Proficient in Morse code.

Bottom line, it's too bad the trend is toward dropping the requirement.

Until now, the morse code requirement served the dual purpose as a de facto
"intelligence test" to get in to ham radio, and it also required some
committment (which in turn gets hams to respect the medium).

What I think worries everyone is that without this requirement, the bar will
be lowered to the extent of becoming glorified Citizens Band radio.

And that would be a shame.

-- Stinger

"N8KDV" wrote in message
...


Jeff Renkin wrote:

The point just keeps flying over your head. What if someone
kept
saying to you, if
you want a driver's license, you have to learn Egyptian
Hieroglyphics
first?

Actually Jeff, you don't get the point.

Crap, why the hell can't any of you just concentrate and deal with that
point
before you avoid it and jump to something else???

When you get the license for HF amateur operation, you get privileges
that
include code.

No, you have the privileges to use code on VHF and UHF if you want to
and don't
ever have to pass a code test. In case you are not aware, parts of
those
bands are set aside for code as well.

Code proficiency is part of the requirement.

It was part of the requirement to get a technician's class license too,
wasn't
it? But that was dropped, right? It would have been dropped all
across
the board for every class of license, but the international agreement
between
countries was the ONLY reason it had to stay with the HF licenses.
Now that
the world finally got to vote on this, they did away with the
requirement.
The requirement is NO LONGER. Other countries were quick to remove
the
requirement from their local laws, the US is just very slow at changing
laws. It will happen, it just takes a government like ours months of
boring
useless discussion to come to an obvious conclusion. Have you ever
watched
C-span? Then you would know how ****ed up our government is.

Code does happen
to represent a significant part of HF operation.

So does voice.

It has to do with demonstrating you know what you are doing in areas
that
are pertinent to the license.

"Knowing what you are doing" is a technical reasoning since you are
dealing
with equipment that can cause interference and even death if not used
properly. Not knowing how to send morse code properly is not going to
interfere with any other licensed services or cause anyone to die.

Now, try to answer this without avoiding it....

What if to get a driver's license, you had to learn Egyptian
Hieroglyphics
first?

What if to learn Morse code, you finally had to pull your head out of your
ass
Jeff?

The sound would probably equal that of Krakatoa erupting!

Steve
Holland, MI

Proficient in Morse code.

I find my self in agreement with you Stinger. The worth of anything in life
is only how hard was it to obtain?

Why would anyone buy a Rolex when a Timex does the exact same thing an order
of magnitude cheaper? The Rolex is a sign of achievement by the wearer.

Those of us who worked to learn the code hate to see our Rolex turned in to
a Timex by a group of people who can't afford a Rolex.

I guess in a world where achievement is disdained, because it makes the
under-achiever feel bad, the move is not unexpected.

Fred W4JLE Ex V3CB V31GR
(Hamming for over 47 years and still loving it!)


"Stinger" wrote in message
...
Bottom line, it's too bad the trend is toward dropping the requirement.

Until now, the morse code requirement served the dual purpose as a de
facto
"intelligence test" to get in to ham radio, and it also required some
committment (which in turn gets hams to respect the medium).

"w4jle" W4JLE(remove this to wrote in message

Those of us who worked to learn the code hate to see our Rolex turned in to
a Timex by a group of people who can't afford a Rolex.

It doesn't really bother me. The only bummer part is there will be
fewer and fewer CW ops in the next years. I could really care less if
they drop the code tests. With 5 wpm, for all practical purposes, they
already have. I just can't stand the whiners...Whine, whine,
whine....Such a waste of energy, particularly being they are wasting
it in the totally wrong direction. They should tell it to the fcc, not
other hams, or SWL's on NG's. It's like whining about the broken
cruise control in your Ford truck at a J.C. Penny's. :/
We don't have any control over it, so whining to us is a total waste
of time.
It makes me laugh that someone would spend so much time and energy
trying to convince people that have absolutely no control over the
matter. Better than the freaking comedy channel if you ask me.
MK

I find my self in agreement with you Stinger. The worth of anything in life
is only how hard was it to obtain?

Before you make such a statement, be sure to test it out by thinking first if
there are any examples that blow holes through the theory as so many do.

Many people would put a high value on their children, even though they were so
easy to obtain, many were not even planned for. I put a high value on what I
get just from sitting and doing nothing in the middle of nature, and is one of
the easiest things to obtain. In fact, with many things, once the way of
obtaining something is not worth the reward, no one bothers to put more effort
in to something than they can get out of it. For instance, we know this is
how MOST people felt about the code requirement as no one was getting licenses
anymore, then when the requirement was dropped for the tech class license over a
decade ago, there was a flood of new licenses, so many the FCC had a hard time
keeping up with it and it took months for some to get their licenses. That
is all the proof you need to prove that point.

Watch again as soon as the US finally follows the other countries in officially
dropping the code from their local wording the flood of applicants upgrading
from Technician class directly to Extra Class in one sitting, while the code
passing Generals STILL won't be able to get THEIR Extra class licenses because
they can't pass the easy written multiple choice tests.

Why would anyone buy a Rolex when a Timex does the exact same thing an order
of magnitude cheaper?

Because those people don't buy a watch so they know what time it is, they buy it
to SHOW OFF and try to impress other people. Are you saying this is what
people who learn the code are doing?

Only an idiot pays the price of a car for a watch, when you can get a great one
for under $100. If you really like the Rolex style, you can even get an exact
copy for around $20 that is self winding and never needs batteries and keeps
excellent time.

The real question is, what kind of IDIOT spends thousands on a real Rolex when
everyone is going to think it is just a fake $20 one anyway?

I don't need the real one OR the fake one, my digital watch provides so much
more information, like phone numbers, reminders, and all sorts of things the
Rolexes can't do and for much less money. Intelligent people have a knack for
reasoning things out and using common sense, something anyone who buys a Rolex
is not doing. They are just throwing away a lot of money that could have been
used for much better purposes.

The Rolex is a sign of achievement by the wearer.

Well, we know what category YOU fit in now.

Those of us who worked to learn the code hate to see our Rolex turned in to
a Timex by a group of people who can't afford a Rolex.

What a **** poor analogy. How does someone else not learning code make your
code learning and use of it, any less in value? See, again you are only
concerned with OTHER people and not your OWN use for the code and the enjoyment
you may have had learning it. Nothing is going to take that away. If
I produce and build a beautiful radio with my own hands, and no one else has to
build one, that doesn't take away the value of my radio to me at all.

"by a group of people who CAN'T AFFORD a Rolex"

This quote AGAIN shows us what type of person you are. Those that don't have
rich parents like you must of had are not worth anything in life to you. We
need high prices and morse code restrictions so that we can keep most of the
public out of our exclusive clubs of elite snobs. God forbid that a commoner
should be allowed into our hobby that didn't have to go through the "eating live
goldfish" stunts first to be initiated into the jackass club at your high cost
club.

Again, there are many watches that do an exceptional job of keeping time for
much less money, and those that foolishly waste and throw away money based on
expensive name brands are idiots with no intelligence. People don't buy Bose
speakers because they are good, Bose speakers SUCK! People buy them so when
others LOOK at them, they will know how much money they spent (and what boobs
they are that they don't know how ****ty they sound and could have gotten much
better speakers for much less money!

I guess in a world where achievement is disdained, because it makes the
under-achiever feel bad, the move is not unexpected.

In the old days, you didn't need to get a license to ride a horse. We didn't
make licenses for cars to keep most of the public from driving a car, or pad it
with worthless extra tests so that most could not pass it, but on the contrary,
we make it easier for everyone (now even illegal alien criminals) to get a
driver's license because the test is just so you know the rules of the road, not
how to use morse code or something that you will never even use when
driving. There would be no test at ALL for a driver's license if not for a
few things you really do need to know before getting behind the wheel.

The same thing applies to ham radio.

If not for the fact that ham operators are allowed to build their own equipment
and can use transmitters that are over Part 15 rules regarding output power and
whatnot, there would be NO test at all!!! There is no test for CB, family
service radios, or even GMRS!! Yes you need a license for GMRS, but there is
no written OR code test, just send away for the license! Why? Because those
people are only going to be using FCC approved equipment instead of playing
around with making their own or using power outputs that are as high as what
hams can use.

We only need be tested on the dangers of the power we are playing with, and how
to safeguard from interfering with other licensed services, and how not to kill
birds and other life with our dangerous equipment.

Otherwise, it would just be sending in a check and getting your ham license like
with GMRS.

Not knowing code doesn't seem to have anything to do with operating CB, FRS, or
GMRS and it doesn't have anything to do with being able to use ham radio either.

Ham radio can be used for remote control model aircraft, sending computer data,
sending VIDEO pictures, and so many things that we are not tested on before
getting the license. Once we have the license, if we are interested in
learning one of the many areas of ham radio like using morse code, or using RC
planes, we will learn them as we use them.

No sense in testing EVERYONE in RC planes and Morse Code just to get the
license, only the RULES and SAFETY need to be learned, the fun and games that
have nothing to do with the dangers of operating RF need not be a requirement
before the license is issued.

You can use a morse code key incorrectly, and you won't kill anyone or cause any
interference that using the code key properly wouldn't have done. But the
transmitter you are using the code key with, you need to know a few things about
that before turning it on and using it!

We don't get tested before getting a driver's license on how to use the car to
go out in the country for a picnic, or use it at a drive in movie, just the
important SAFETY and RULES that go along with operating the vehicle which can be
dangerous if not used properly.

If there was no danger in operating a car, there would be no test, you would
just pay the fee for your license. The testing is not to make it harder for
people to get a driver's license!! The economy would crumble and people
would not be able to get to work if there was a morse code requirement before
you could get a driver's license!!

And right now, in the time we can expect many more terrorist attacks on our soil
(thanks to Bush) we need as many ham operators to assist in those times as they
did during 9/11. The MORE hams the better! Silly worthless restrictions to
keep qualified hams from helping is doing nothing more than HELPING THE
TERRORISTS!!

Ask any terrorist that hate the US and I am sure they will be for keeping the
code requirement too!
They don't want a surplus of hams being able to provide communications and
aiding what they are trying to take down.

The other countries are already on the ball and have dropped the code
requirement, but the one country that should have been the first to do so,
really seems to like endangering our lives. If not, they wouldn't keep
terrorizing the middle east and getting them to retaliate on us so much.

Jeff Renkin wrote in message

When you get the license for HF amateur operation, you get privileges that
include code.

No, you have the privileges to use code on VHF and UHF if you want to and don't
ever have to pass a code test. In case you are not aware, parts of those
bands are set aside for code as well.

In case you are not aware, the international treaty did not include
VHF.

Code proficiency is part of the requirement.

It was part of the requirement to get a technician's class license too, wasn't
it? But that was dropped, right?

In case you are not aware, it was only dropped because international
treaty did not include VHF.

Next...MK

When you get the license for HF amateur operation, you get privileges that
include code.

No, you have the privileges to use code on VHF and UHF if you want to and don't
ever have to pass a code test. In case you are not aware, parts of those
bands are set aside for code as well.

In case you are not aware, the international treaty did not include
VHF.

Don't change the subject, the point here is that you are not given code privileges
with an HF license as is PROVEN by the fact that a tech class ham can also use code
legally on VHF. Therefore, your statement is false.

Jeff Renkin wrote in message
Don't change the subject, the point here is that you are not given code privileges
with an HF license as is PROVEN by the fact that a tech class ham can also use code
legally on VHF. Therefore, your statement is false.

Yea, right, it's false. Treaty included VHF and above. Right. You do
need to get a grip. MK