Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating doing this at all, in fact I'm
thinking about it from the perspective of the store owners, truth be told.
What if scurrilous, frivolous lawsuit-sters built a transmitter that set the
beeper off and triggered it as one of them walked through? And, just for
the sake of argument, say the good guys didn't find out about it(which of
course, isn't likely, given that good always triumphs over evil). The
honest, hard working retail corporation would argue they had PC to arrest
the scurrilous lawsuit-sters, and the (being the rotten scoundrels that they
are) would argue that, no, they didn't have PC. Just out of curiosity, and
yes, I KNOW, it's way off topic. After this I won't ask any more questions,
but what do you guys think the judge would rule on this? would the
scoundrels (God forbid) have a slim chance of successfully perpetrating
their criminal act?


"Mark" wrote in message
...
Assuming they didn't have decent video (which most stores don't - belive
it or
not), they would have to be very inept not to be able to find the security
tag
on you just short of a rubber glove search. You set off the alarm, that
is PC
enough for them to hold you and demand you empty your pockets. It will
hold
up in court, so you can waste your time fighting a CR violation it if you
want, but...

Once they find that tag, you get a free ride to the Grey Bar Motel. Even
though it's just a stupid tag - you still stole it.

Think twice about this kind of joke.


On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:33:40 +1100, "nana" wrote:

Then they replay the camera videos, catch you in the act, call the police
and have you charged for causing public mischief, or banned from their
store.
nana

"Tom H" wrote in message
news:0WBEd.45565$8l.26799@pd7tw1no...
what would happen if you stuck a security tag on your shoe, set off the
beeper, and refuse to voluntarily accompany security personnel to their
backroom for an 'interview' saying you didn't take anything and you're
in
a hurry, causing them to physicaly manhandle you into the office where
they search you (if that was what they did) and find nothing. Assuming
they don't find out you engineered the whole scenario, do you think you
would be able to sue them? would they want to settle out of court?
anyone have any thoughts on this?

"Dave Bushong" wrote in message
...
nana wrote:
Lets not forget, an amateur license carries a higher degree of respect
than does a non licensed device.



With whom? Most people still have no accurate idea what a Ham is!

In regards to this ancient thread - my cellphone has triggered the
alarms at the checkouts more than once. These alarms relied on
reradiation of harmonics and perhaps some non-linear device within the
phone did just that.

The store did not go into an anti-theft frenzy. The girl looked up
from
her register, I took my phone off my belt, waved it past the detector,
it beeped, I walked through after it, it didn't beep, problem solved.
There is no big issue here.

Brad VK2QQ



A friend of mine plucked one of those anti-theft plastic doohickeys
from
a high-ticket item and stuck it onto the back of my belt and I set off
the detector over and over again as I walked through the exit door.

Some friend.

I wish I had thought of it.

A friend of mine plucked one of those anti-theft plastic
doohickeys from
a high-ticket item and stuck it onto the back of my belt and I set
off the detector over and over again as I walked through the exit
door.

Some friend.

I wish I had thought of it.









It's an old trick, I worked at Home Depot as a 2nd job a few years back,
had a co-worker stick on on my collar. Everytime I walked through the
Sensormatic system, it'd go off, and the people near it at the time
would be asked for their receipts.. All the while, they'd let me walk,
since everyone knew who I was...(and I was just hittin up the hot dog
vendor.)
Not many stores are going to risk stripping you down to find that little
tag. If you're with them, not being flakey, and they already realize you
dont have any large quantitites or items on you, it's cheaper to let you
walk than to prosecute, possibly falsely.

john

In article 0WBEd.45565$8l.26799@pd7tw1no, "Tom H"
wrote:

what would happen if you stuck a security tag on your shoe, set off the
beeper, and refuse to voluntarily accompany security personnel to their
backroom for an 'interview' saying you didn't take anything and you're in a
hurry, causing them to physicaly manhandle you into the office where they
search you (if that was what they did) and find nothing. Assuming they
don't find out you engineered the whole scenario, do you think you would be
able to sue them? would they want to settle out of court? anyone have any
thoughts on this?

A better question is what would happen if you refused to let the clerk
at the door inspect your bag on the way out even when alarms don't go
off.

Most electronics stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) where I live
station someone at the exit and ask each person to see their receipt as
they walk out.

What if you refuse?

You haven't stolen anything so there's no legal basis for them to detain
you in any way.

And once you tender payment at the register and the money passes from
your hand to theirs (or your account to theirs), the merchandise is no
longer even their property-- it's yours-- so they have no legal claim to
inspect it.

The most they can do is say that you're not complying with their rules
on their private property so you're trespassing but the remedy for
trespassing is to demand the person leave the premises, which is what
you were doing when the whole thing started in the first place.

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article 0WBEd.45565$8l.26799@pd7tw1no, "Tom H"
wrote:

what would happen if you stuck a security tag on your shoe, set off the
beeper, and refuse to voluntarily accompany security personnel to their
backroom for an 'interview' saying you didn't take anything and you're in
a
hurry, causing them to physicaly manhandle you into the office where they
search you (if that was what they did) and find nothing. Assuming they
don't find out you engineered the whole scenario, do you think you would
be
able to sue them? would they want to settle out of court? anyone have
any
thoughts on this?

A better question is what would happen if you refused to let the clerk
at the door inspect your bag on the way out even when alarms don't go
off.

Most electronics stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) where I live
station someone at the exit and ask each person to see their receipt as
they walk out.

What if you refuse?

You haven't stolen anything so there's no legal basis for them to detain
you in any way.

That's the point of the check, people have walked out with lawn mowers and
television sets. They are bold and deceptive and dishonest. Just because you
have a receipt for three items, doesn't mean you couldn't have stolen
another two items.

It is a condition of entry and there will be a Notice somewhere stating the
fact. If you do not wish to comply, then don't go in. Since you want to kick
up a fuss, they can ban you from the store.

I understand all these "what if" scenarios, but WHY would you want to make a
complete ass of yourself, make yourself known as a troublemaker, get
yourself banned from these stores and besmirch your reputation? Do you have
too much money or too much time on your hands?

Really, these "what if" things are quite stupid.

Nana

In article , "nana"
wrote:

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article 0WBEd.45565$8l.26799@pd7tw1no, "Tom H"
wrote:

what would happen if you stuck a security tag on your shoe, set off the
beeper, and refuse to voluntarily accompany security personnel to their
backroom for an 'interview' saying you didn't take anything and you're in
a hurry, causing them to physicaly manhandle you into the office where they
search you (if that was what they did) and find nothing. Assuming they
don't find out you engineered the whole scenario, do you think you would
be able to sue them? would they want to settle out of court? anyone have
any thoughts on this?

A better question is what would happen if you refused to let the clerk
at the door inspect your bag on the way out even when alarms don't go
off.

Most electronics stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) where I live
station someone at the exit and ask each person to see their receipt as
they walk out.

What if you refuse?

You haven't stolen anything so there's no legal basis for them to detain
you in any way.

That's the point of the check, people have walked out with lawn mowers and
television sets. They are bold and deceptive and dishonest. Just because you
have a receipt for three items, doesn't mean you couldn't have stolen
another two items.

It is a condition of entry and there will be a Notice somewhere stating the
fact. If you do not wish to comply, then don't go in. Since you want to kick
up a fuss, they can ban you from the store.

Sure, but they can't detain me at the time and inspect the receipt/bag
if I don't want them to. The most they can do is ask me to leave, which
as I said, is what I was doing in the first place.

In article , "nana"
wrote:

It is a condition of entry and there will be a Notice somewhere stating the
fact. If you do not wish to comply, then don't go in. Since you want to kick
up a fuss, they can ban you from the store.

How? Not sure how they'd even know who I am. If I don't stop for them to
check my receipt, I'm sure not going to stop for them to take down my
name and information for future banning purposes and there's no law that
says I have to.

I understand all these "what if" scenarios, but WHY would you want to make a
complete ass of yourself, make yourself known as a troublemaker, get
yourself banned from these stores and besmirch your reputation?

Because it's just one more damn line to stand in. Shopping at Best buy
this past Christmas, I stood in line to get to the register for over 30
minutes, then when I finally get there and pay for my stuff, I walk
toward the doors only to find another line 20 people deep waiting to
have their receipt checked. At that point, I'd had enough of it and just
walked around it and out the door.

The clerk guy didn't catch up with me till I was already at my car and
said he had to check my receipt. I said, no he didn't because if I
hadn't paid for what I walked out with, the alarms would have gone off.
Since they didn't, I don't need to be searched. I got in my car and
drove off. I broke no law so there's nothing they could do. [And they
had no clue who I was so it's not like they could "ban" me, either. Of
course, I don't even live in that city so even if they did figure a way
to ban me, so what?]

And how is that going to "besmirch my reputation"? It's not like the
whole world is going to know I decided to rebel against the receipt
search policy and even if they did, how that makes me look bad such that
my reputation is besmirched, I'm not sure.

Somehow I think I could live with the "shame".

There's some ****ing people that just have too much time on their hands.....

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article , "nana"
wrote:

It is a condition of entry and there will be a Notice somewhere stating
the
fact. If you do not wish to comply, then don't go in. Since you want to
kick
up a fuss, they can ban you from the store.

How? Not sure how they'd even know who I am. If I don't stop for them to
check my receipt, I'm sure not going to stop for them to take down my
name and information for future banning purposes and there's no law that
says I have to.

I understand all these "what if" scenarios, but WHY would you want to
make a
complete ass of yourself, make yourself known as a troublemaker, get
yourself banned from these stores and besmirch your reputation?

Because it's just one more damn line to stand in. Shopping at Best buy
this past Christmas, I stood in line to get to the register for over 30
minutes, then when I finally get there and pay for my stuff, I walk
toward the doors only to find another line 20 people deep waiting to
have their receipt checked. At that point, I'd had enough of it and just
walked around it and out the door.

The clerk guy didn't catch up with me till I was already at my car and
said he had to check my receipt. I said, no he didn't because if I
hadn't paid for what I walked out with, the alarms would have gone off.
Since they didn't, I don't need to be searched. I got in my car and
drove off. I broke no law so there's nothing they could do. [And they
had no clue who I was so it's not like they could "ban" me, either. Of
course, I don't even live in that city so even if they did figure a way
to ban me, so what?]

And how is that going to "besmirch my reputation"? It's not like the
whole world is going to know I decided to rebel against the receipt
search policy and even if they did, how that makes me look bad such that
my reputation is besmirched, I'm not sure.

Somehow I think I could live with the "shame".

In article ,
"69FLH" wrote:

There's some ****ing people that just have too much time on their hands.....

Yeah, I don't. That's why I didn't want to wait in the receipt check
line.

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article , "nana"
wrote:

It is a condition of entry and there will be a Notice somewhere stating
the
fact. If you do not wish to comply, then don't go in. Since you want to
kick
up a fuss, they can ban you from the store.

How? Not sure how they'd even know who I am. If I don't stop for them to
check my receipt, I'm sure not going to stop for them to take down my
name and information for future banning purposes and there's no law that
says I have to.

I understand all these "what if" scenarios, but WHY would you want to
make a
complete ass of yourself, make yourself known as a troublemaker, get
yourself banned from these stores and besmirch your reputation?

Because it's just one more damn line to stand in. Shopping at Best buy
this past Christmas, I stood in line to get to the register for over 30
minutes, then when I finally get there and pay for my stuff, I walk
toward the doors only to find another line 20 people deep waiting to
have their receipt checked. At that point, I'd had enough of it and just
walked around it and out the door.

The clerk guy didn't catch up with me till I was already at my car and
said he had to check my receipt. I said, no he didn't because if I
hadn't paid for what I walked out with, the alarms would have gone off.
Since they didn't, I don't need to be searched. I got in my car and
drove off. I broke no law so there's nothing they could do. [And they
had no clue who I was so it's not like they could "ban" me, either. Of
course, I don't even live in that city so even if they did figure a way
to ban me, so what?]

And how is that going to "besmirch my reputation"? It's not like the
whole world is going to know I decided to rebel against the receipt
search policy and even if they did, how that makes me look bad such that
my reputation is besmirched, I'm not sure.

Somehow I think I could live with the "shame".

There most definately IS a point to all of this --- one relating to the
legal balance between privacy vs protection of property (seriously OT, I
know), a very important point to the loss prevention dept and not
superfluous or trivial at all.
OK, if the penalty for refusing to permit a search is being banned, every
crook in town will show up one after the other and be subjected to banning,
whilst making off with a ton of plunder in the process.
Lets leave the question of whether or not there is another method of
detecting theft aside (which, duh, of course there is, this is simply a
"just for the sake of argument" question), lets just say the only method of
detecting theft was the beeper. OK, a guy goes through, beep beep, "No, I
didn't take anything, I'm not submitting.", "You are banned.", "Fine, see
you later ...", and another couple hundred dollars worth of stuff walks out
the door? That doesn't sound right.
My question is: doesn't the fact that the beeper went off give security the
right (Probable cause) to make an arrest, in the event that the person
refuses to submit to a search?

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"69FLH" wrote:

There's some ****ing people that just have too much time on their
hands.....

Yeah, I don't. That's why I didn't want to wait in the receipt check
line.

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article , "nana"
wrote:

It is a condition of entry and there will be a Notice somewhere
stating
the
fact. If you do not wish to comply, then don't go in. Since you want
to
kick
up a fuss, they can ban you from the store.

How? Not sure how they'd even know who I am. If I don't stop for them
to
check my receipt, I'm sure not going to stop for them to take down my
name and information for future banning purposes and there's no law
that
says I have to.

I understand all these "what if" scenarios, but WHY would you want to
make a
complete ass of yourself, make yourself known as a troublemaker, get
yourself banned from these stores and besmirch your reputation?

Because it's just one more damn line to stand in. Shopping at Best buy
this past Christmas, I stood in line to get to the register for over 30
minutes, then when I finally get there and pay for my stuff, I walk
toward the doors only to find another line 20 people deep waiting to
have their receipt checked. At that point, I'd had enough of it and
just
walked around it and out the door.

The clerk guy didn't catch up with me till I was already at my car and
said he had to check my receipt. I said, no he didn't because if I
hadn't paid for what I walked out with, the alarms would have gone off.
Since they didn't, I don't need to be searched. I got in my car and
drove off. I broke no law so there's nothing they could do. [And they
had no clue who I was so it's not like they could "ban" me, either. Of
course, I don't even live in that city so even if they did figure a way
to ban me, so what?]

And how is that going to "besmirch my reputation"? It's not like the
whole world is going to know I decided to rebel against the receipt
search policy and even if they did, how that makes me look bad such
that
my reputation is besmirched, I'm not sure.

Somehow I think I could live with the "shame".

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:03:27 GMT, "Tom H" wrote:

}My question is: doesn't the fact that the beeper went off give security the
}right (Probable cause) to make an arrest, in the event that the person
}refuses to submit to a search?

Probably not to make an arrest. Of course that does depend on state laws
(which vary). In Missouri, to make a "citizen's arrest" you have to
reasonable believe the person is committing a theft (crime) and then
actually be right that a theft occurred. A police officer merely needs
probably cause to believe ANY crime occurred and that the person did it. So
to physically stop and detain/arrest someone is risky for merely setting
off an alarm absent someone actually seeing them stuff something or walk
out without paying. There are far too many false alarms to risk a civil
lawsuit anyway.

That doesn't even address when searches are justified (an entirely
different animal)...

Later,
Dave