From: on Thurs, Aug 10 2006 8:48 pm
Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rec.radio.amateur.policy,
rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.swap


Al Klein wrote:
On 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700, wrote:

You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM,
AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc,
then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid.

However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So
there need be no exam for Morse Code, either.

That's my point - there's no test any longer. For anything more than
the ability to memorize answers.

Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing
in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift...

Selective amnesia. "No one had to memorize anything" prior 1992.
Not in grade school, not in college, not in industry, not in
real life. Strange perception...


Ummm? There's no Morse Code test anymore?

The International Morse Code test for United States amateur
radio license classes General and Extra have NEVER GONE AWAY.

That is especially true in the perception of the ARRL which
still manages to insert the "necessities" for morsemanship
in nearly everything it publishes. It's been six decades
since Hiram Percy became ultimate DX but they still keep on
with their demand that all [US] amateurs be proficient in
that old mode.

The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an
FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the
location.


What current exam? Memorizing answers and writing them down isn't a
test.

So what is it that you fear?

Klein fears CHANGE and, perhaps, feelings of obsolescence.

Someone who has been a regular worker in electronics (radio is a
subset of electronics) ought to damn well know and recognize
that the state of the art in electronics has been CONSTANTLY
changing. It's sometimes a chore to keep up, whether it be
1950 or 2000 or any time in-between.

You'd probably be weeded out pretty quickly.

I doubt it - if I couldn't pass an Extra theory exam - a real one, not
the nonsense that passes for one these days - I'd lose my job in a
second.

Mmmm. I see. You are a careerist in the electronics industry and it
****es you off that hobbyists have equal "status" as you in amatuer
radio. I've run across a lot of that in the past 20 years...

I've run across a lot of that my entire life. :-)

I think Klein wants recognition as a "professional amateur" or
"amateur professional." I'm not sure which...


What if you addressed what I said when you answer me? Your dishonest
tactics are transparent.

You're the one that forgot the circuit, not me. Get ****ed at your own
self.

When in doubt of an effective reply, these Fundamentalist
Morseodists
must resort to some form of denigration. Sigh, they never learn...


Quit putting words in my mouth. I wasn't complaining to anyone, and
we weren't discussing remembering 50 year old tests.

Correct. "WE" weren't discussing it. YOU were. YOU were discussing
how you can't draw what you can't remember.

This is an indicator that Klein isn't used to computer-modem
communications. He isn't looking beyond his own screen and
understanding that others are separated from it in time and space.
"He" was obviously talking about "old days" of "His." He is not
considering that others do not share his viewpoints.

Considering the Type of Oscillator and "names," he has put
Names as somehow "essential" to the circuit. NO SUCH THING.
An oscillator is simply an amplifier of just-barely-past-unity
gain with positive feedback. The Names were tacked on by
academics long, long ago as IDENTIFICATION of the general form
of amplification-with-positive-feedback.

One can build a Colpitts oscillator, make it work, and continue
calling it a Hartley. Won't make a bit of difference to the
circuit...electrons don't give a damn about human labels. They
work by THEIR laws, not humans' with their imperative labels.

By the way, on a quick bit of checking, I've got text references
to about 11 different oscillator forms, not just two (with his
unknown third type)...and I'm not counting free-running multi-
vibrators which are also very much an "oscillator."



Maybe we should have one - show the ability to put a clean PSK signal
on the air. Show the ability to interpret a waterfall display. Show
the ability to tell the difference between various digital modes. The
bands would be pretty QRM-free.

YES!!!

[ no... ]

If you are ever going to save your beloved Morse Code test, this is the
only way you're going to do it.

The only way to "save his beloved morse code test" is to have the
ARRL exercise some BETTER brainwashing than it has been doing for
decades. The League is still trying to use its old persuasion
and, so far, hasn't been able to get memberships from the 3/4 of
all licensed US radio amateurs who are NOT ARRL members...


I think it is you who don't know where you're going with this
discussion. It's gone beyond your having grief over your favorite mode
to actually having to think about the future of the service.
Conggrats. Another couple of years of RRAP tutoring and you just might
become a rational being.

I disagree, Brian. Klein is a MORSEMAN. They don't change.
They are rooted in old days long gone, brainwashed early into
thinking that morsemanship is "essential" to "best" radio
communication. It isn't...easily proved by ALL the OTHER
radio services giving up on morse code as a mode (if they
had it once) or never requiring it since a radio service began.


Who said that? We absolutely NEED relevant exams. That is my whole
argument!

So you're in favor of exams that test knowledge of theory? "Draw the
schematic of ..."? "Explain why long path 2400 bps is impossible on
14 MHz"? That kind of relevance?

Sure. But you have to ask yourself one question. Can the average VE
administer such an exam? If not, can your average GS-7 FCC employee
administer such an exam? If you set up an exam that only an engineer
can administer, then your government isn't going to accept it. So be
realistic in your zeal.

Klein hasn't considered the simple fact that, by law, the VEs
do NOT have to be trained test-adminsters. They are simply
VOLINTEERS who have the requisite license class and GIVE OF
THEIR OWN TIME to adminster tests. VEs are accountable only
to the FCC in that volunteer testing. VEs' only "penalty"
in mis-administering an amateur test is a reduction in license
class or forteiture of their amateur license.

Klein and his "tests aren't like they were in 'my' time"
bitchers and moaners HAD their chance to keep privatization
in testing from happening long ago. Legal means to stop it
by NPRM Commentary didn't make their case. Privatization
happened for BOTH amateur and commercial licenses. Now
their whine is long past its time and has turned to vinegar.


Or the "pick the answer with the resistor like we showed you in the
example" kind of relevance?

The exam can be anything your VEC wants it to be. We learned this when
the ARRL went from administering a Morse Code Exam at 5WPM to
administering a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15WPM.

True enough, Brian, but expect ten kinds of flak from the
other morsepersons in here on that... :-)

The VEC can LEGALLY generate a Question Pool with ONE HUNDRED
times the minimum required number of questions. With electronic
transmittal over the Internet the Question Pool can be updated
within 24 hours to ALL VE groups.

Say the FCC requires a minimum of 50 questions on a written
test element. If the VEC QPC generates the Question-Answer
pool with FIVE THOUSAND QUESTIONS (and answers), it should be
obvious that mere "memorization" sufficient to pass that
written test element is out of the question. Anyone who CAN
memorize that prodigious amount is already gifted as an eidetic
and those are extremely rare among humans.

What all that concentration on the "written tests" is about is
just a DIVERSION to keep from replying on the singular morse
code test continuation. The morsemen just haven't been able
to come up with sufficently-valid reasons to keep the morse
test (other than the emotional ones) so they smoke-screen by
bringing up the writtens. Old tactic of theirs.



How do you draw a schematic

Memorization.

Correct.

and explain the functions of parts by
memorizing answers?

Memorization.

Correct again.

You can't explain phase shift by memorizing "10k"
or "coil".

You can't memorize the def of phase shift?

C'mon, aren't you supposed to be in the industry?

We don't know WHERE, Brian, or for WHOM. :-)


I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military.
I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce
power once.

But you had to learn how to use the radios.

I did?

They just gave you a radio and said "use it"?

On/Off and PTT. What else is there???

[ ahem..."volume" and "squelch" to name two... :-) ]

Oh, yeh, a magnetic compass and a chart where the satellite is.

Darn you "kids!" Weren't any of those newfangled gizmos
like "satellites" when I was in the Army. :-)

The AN/PRC-8 backpack VHF transceivers (one of which I wore
in PIP Training) also had VFO frequency control along with a
built-in "crystal calibrator." Nothing like the "channel
selection" of a later synthesized AN/PRC-25 (also FM on VHF).

Interesting engineering feat with that VFO control over a
military temperature and vibration environment. Copied from
the old SCR-300 "walkie-talkie" of WW2, devised by Motorola
(also FM on VHF). But, I digress, that was Practical Theory
as applied by professional engineering, used by professional
military people...didn't have the majesty of AMATEURISM and
all its nobility (and class distinctions).


Hams today don't - they
memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no
understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn.

Then it hasn't changed much since you were first licensed.

When I was licensed you had to show an understanding of theory, by
answering questions that were more than just multiple choice from a
published answer pool.

Yes, you had to memorize paragraphs instead of multiple choices. Big
deal.

Good grief, all that crying and wailing over Test Privatization!
Maybe we should take up a collection to send him some Kleenex?

Seems to me that COLLEGE-level course tests that I took had a
LOT of memorization. Maybe we should all slam the academic
world for doing the same "memorization?" Hey, why not, all
those who failed college level courses can get a Wailing Wall!

My state drivers' license testing is done from multiple-choice
and that requires MUCH memorization of the applicable laws.
While the CA DMV does not publish the EXACT answers, the have
lots and lots of examples, not only well-publicized but available
free in little booklets at each DMV office. Maybe Klein wants
me to take an ME degree course in automotive engineering just
to drive our Malibu MAXX? :-)


You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted
here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want
to get on the air. Period.

W3RV didn't wait to get a ham license before operating! He just wanted
to get on the air. Period.

Point?

All you wonderful OF's taking trips down memory lane forget that some
of your brother hams were bootleggers.

It's only the unwashed No-code Techs that operate illegally. Hi!!!
What a stinking load.

Brian, if you check out the "official" history of the ARRL
you will find out that they BEGAN in trying to circumvent
the commercial telegram system with a relaying of messages
past the commercial boundaries and FEES. If that were
reported today, the journalists would call it "hacking."



If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must
also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY
(which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc.

I have no problem with that.

Then go for it.

It is the ONLY legitimate recourse you have for retaining the Morse
Code exam.

Best of luck.

I hope he tries it. I'm anxious to find out how much hostility
he will engender from his fellow amateurs who are VEs...how they
have to spend many more hours (of their own time) in testing
each license applicant (separately). Ought to go over like a
concrete balloon...


Trained as an EE. Spent years designing RF circuitry, then went into
digital design. "Is", not yet "was" - I'm still alive.

Are you drawing a pension from it? "Was."

Are you drawing a paycheck from it? "Is."

And it's so typical for Old Timers to forget that not everyone in the
ARS are CAREERIST PROFESSIONALS. Bitching and Moaning about how
everyone else doesn't know as much as them.

Klein has yet to define his own label, whether it is "professional
amateur" or "amateur professional." He seems undecided.

I'm one of the (chronological) Olde Fahrts in this group but I
pray to God that I won't ever get as bad as some of them with
their retro attitudes and fixations with modes of their long-
ago youth, the ultra importance of CLASS and RANK. Geez.

You'd think that some of them regard amateur radio like the
USMC! ["the few, the ultra proud (of morsemanship)"]


Let's have a test that
shows whether the testee knows anything.

Remember that you are handsomely compensated for your professional
knowledge. Amateur Radio is a non-compensated hobby.

Some of these Olde Fahrts seem to think their amateurism is on
some kind of "higher plane" than ordinary, plebian, work.
They be BETTER than the pros and keep reinforcing each other
with that pipe-dream. After all, the ARRL keeps reminding
them of their greatness, their "service to their country"
(by having their hobby). To hear them talk the nation would
immediately fall apart without these federally-licensed
hobbyists!

We'll have to get Mr. Webster to work coming up with a better
definition of the hobby. Is it "professional amateurism" or
"amateur professionalism?" I opt for the latter but others
may differ.

Beep, beep...

wrote:
From: on Thurs, Aug 10 2006 8:48 pm
Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rec.radio.amateur.policy,
rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.swap


Al Klein wrote:
On 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700, wrote:

You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM,
AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc,
then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid.

However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So
there need be no exam for Morse Code, either.

That's my point - there's no test any longer. For anything more than
the ability to memorize answers.

Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing
in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift...

Selective amnesia. "No one had to memorize anything" prior 1992.
Not in grade school, not in college, not in industry, not in
real life. Strange perception...

Selective amnesia...

With the advent of the No-Code Technician license, memorization became
a bad, bad thing.

Ummm? There's no Morse Code test anymore?

The International Morse Code test for United States amateur
radio license classes General and Extra have NEVER GONE AWAY.

That is especially true in the perception of the ARRL which
still manages to insert the "necessities" for morsemanship
in nearly everything it publishes. It's been six decades
since Hiram Percy became ultimate DX but they still keep on
with their demand that all [US] amateurs be proficient in
that old mode.

Most issues of QST have a minimum of at least one walk down memory
lane, usually with a key or keyer in one hand.

The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an
FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the
location.

What current exam? Memorizing answers and writing them down isn't a
test.

So what is it that you fear?

Klein fears CHANGE and, perhaps, feelings of obsolescence.

I think everyone has some of that to one degree or another. It's
unhealthy to allow that fear to paralyze you.

Someone who has been a regular worker in electronics (radio is a
subset of electronics) ought to damn well know and recognize
that the state of the art in electronics has been CONSTANTLY
changing. It's sometimes a chore to keep up, whether it be
1950 or 2000 or any time in-between.

There will be new challenges before us tomorrow, but we won't know
about them. We will still be arguing if a morse code exam is
necessary.

You'd probably be weeded out pretty quickly.

I doubt it - if I couldn't pass an Extra theory exam - a real one, not
the nonsense that passes for one these days - I'd lose my job in a
second.

Mmmm. I see. You are a careerist in the electronics industry and it
****es you off that hobbyists have equal "status" as you in amatuer
radio. I've run across a lot of that in the past 20 years...

I've run across a lot of that my entire life. :-)

I think Klein wants recognition as a "professional amateur" or
"amateur professional." I'm not sure which...

He's a professional whiner.

What if you addressed what I said when you answer me? Your dishonest
tactics are transparent.

You're the one that forgot the circuit, not me. Get ****ed at your own
self.

When in doubt of an effective reply, these Fundamentalist
Morseodists
must resort to some form of denigration. Sigh, they never learn...

My dishonest, transparent tactics...

Odd, saying what you mean and meaning what you say have become
dishonest.

Quit putting words in my mouth. I wasn't complaining to anyone, and
we weren't discussing remembering 50 year old tests.

Correct. "WE" weren't discussing it. YOU were. YOU were discussing
how you can't draw what you can't remember.

This is an indicator that Klein isn't used to computer-modem
communications. He isn't looking beyond his own screen and
understanding that others are separated from it in time and space.
"He" was obviously talking about "old days" of "His." He is not
considering that others do not share his viewpoints.

I regret to inform Mr Klein that I do not agree with him.

Considering the Type of Oscillator and "names," he has put
Names as somehow "essential" to the circuit. NO SUCH THING.
An oscillator is simply an amplifier of just-barely-past-unity
gain with positive feedback. The Names were tacked on by
academics long, long ago as IDENTIFICATION of the general form
of amplification-with-positive-feedback.

I'm surprised that Klein allows any feedback in his oscillator
circuits.

One can build a Colpitts oscillator, make it work, and continue
calling it a Hartley. Won't make a bit of difference to the
circuit...electrons don't give a damn about human labels. They
work by THEIR laws, not humans' with their imperative labels.

By the way, on a quick bit of checking, I've got text references
to about 11 different oscillator forms, not just two (with his
unknown third type)...and I'm not counting free-running multi-
vibrators which are also very much an "oscillator."

Talk of any kind of vibrator might draw inuendo from robesin.

Maybe we should have one - show the ability to put a clean PSK signal
on the air. Show the ability to interpret a waterfall display. Show
the ability to tell the difference between various digital modes. The
bands would be pretty QRM-free.

YES!!!

[ no... ]

Huh? Lets let the FCC tell us that it is impractical to have everyone
take mode exams. Or lets let the council of VECs tul us the same
thing.

If you are ever going to save your beloved Morse Code test, this is the
only way you're going to do it.

The only way to "save his beloved morse code test" is to have the
ARRL exercise some BETTER brainwashing than it has been doing for
decades. The League is still trying to use its old persuasion
and, so far, hasn't been able to get memberships from the 3/4 of
all licensed US radio amateurs who are NOT ARRL members...

If the league pushes the morse testing issue too hard, it will become
obvious to the 25% that are members.

I think it is you who don't know where you're going with this
discussion. It's gone beyond your having grief over your favorite mode
to actually having to think about the future of the service.
Conggrats. Another couple of years of RRAP tutoring and you just might
become a rational being.

I disagree, Brian. Klein is a MORSEMAN. They don't change.
They are rooted in old days long gone, brainwashed early into
thinking that morsemanship is "essential" to "best" radio
communication. It isn't...easily proved by ALL the OTHER
radio services giving up on morse code as a mode (if they
had it once) or never requiring it since a radio service began.

Actuarial tables abound to deal with that kind of thinking.

Who said that? We absolutely NEED relevant exams. That is my whole
argument!

So you're in favor of exams that test knowledge of theory? "Draw the
schematic of ..."? "Explain why long path 2400 bps is impossible on
14 MHz"? That kind of relevance?

Sure. But you have to ask yourself one question. Can the average VE
administer such an exam? If not, can your average GS-7 FCC employee
administer such an exam? If you set up an exam that only an engineer
can administer, then your government isn't going to accept it. So be
realistic in your zeal.

Klein hasn't considered the simple fact that, by law, the VEs
do NOT have to be trained test-adminsters. They are simply
VOLINTEERS who have the requisite license class and GIVE OF
THEIR OWN TIME to adminster tests. VEs are accountable only
to the FCC in that volunteer testing. VEs' only "penalty"
in mis-administering an amateur test is a reduction in license
class or forteiture of their amateur license.

Klein and his "tests aren't like they were in 'my' time"
bitchers and moaners HAD their chance to keep privatization
in testing from happening long ago. Legal means to stop it
by NPRM Commentary didn't make their case. Privatization
happened for BOTH amateur and commercial licenses. Now
their whine is long past its time and has turned to vinegar.

Yep. Testing must become more "legitimate" for hobbyists than for
professionals.

Or the "pick the answer with the resistor like we showed you in the
example" kind of relevance?

The exam can be anything your VEC wants it to be. We learned this when
the ARRL went from administering a Morse Code Exam at 5WPM to
administering a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15WPM.

True enough, Brian, but expect ten kinds of flak from the
other morsepersons in here on that... :-)

Quack, Quack! Water off a duck's back.

The VEC can LEGALLY generate a Question Pool with ONE HUNDRED
times the minimum required number of questions. With electronic
transmittal over the Internet the Question Pool can be updated
within 24 hours to ALL VE groups.

But everytime the NCVEC solicits for questions and participants for the
QP revisions, guys like Klein are silent; absent.

Say the FCC requires a minimum of 50 questions on a written
test element. If the VEC QPC generates the Question-Answer
pool with FIVE THOUSAND QUESTIONS (and answers), it should be
obvious that mere "memorization" sufficient to pass that
written test element is out of the question. Anyone who CAN
memorize that prodigious amount is already gifted as an eidetic
and those are extremely rare among humans.

Klein will claim that all are eidetic, and the new QP is unfair.

What all that concentration on the "written tests" is about is
just a DIVERSION to keep from replying on the singular morse
code test continuation. The morsemen just haven't been able
to come up with sufficently-valid reasons to keep the morse
test (other than the emotional ones) so they smoke-screen by
bringing up the writtens. Old tactic of theirs.

Old and tired.

How do you draw a schematic

Memorization.

Correct.

and explain the functions of parts by
memorizing answers?

Memorization.

Correct again.

You can't explain phase shift by memorizing "10k"
or "coil".

You can't memorize the def of phase shift?

C'mon, aren't you supposed to be in the industry?

We don't know WHERE, Brian, or for WHOM. :-)

Sounds like Jim.

I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military.
I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce
power once.

But you had to learn how to use the radios.

I did?

They just gave you a radio and said "use it"?

On/Off and PTT. What else is there???

[ ahem..."volume" and "squelch" to name two... :-) ]

Oh, yeh, a magnetic compass and a chart where the satellite is.

Darn you "kids!" Weren't any of those newfangled gizmos
like "satellites" when I was in the Army. :-)

1957. The Russians. Sputnik. CW beacon signal on 20M.

And I wasn't born yet.

But the technilogy was worthwhile and moved forward - without morse
code.

The AN/PRC-8 backpack VHF transceivers (one of which I wore
in PIP Training) also had VFO frequency control along with a
built-in "crystal calibrator." Nothing like the "channel
selection" of a later synthesized AN/PRC-25 (also FM on VHF).

Interesting engineering feat with that VFO control over a
military temperature and vibration environment. Copied from
the old SCR-300 "walkie-talkie" of WW2, devised by Motorola
(also FM on VHF). But, I digress, that was Practical Theory
as applied by professional engineering, used by professional
military people...didn't have the majesty of AMATEURISM and
all its nobility (and class distinctions).

Now we've got FM repeater satellites getting kicked out by the dozens.

Hams today don't - they
memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no
understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn.

Then it hasn't changed much since you were first licensed.

When I was licensed you had to show an understanding of theory, by
answering questions that were more than just multiple choice from a
published answer pool.

Yes, you had to memorize paragraphs instead of multiple choices. Big
deal.

Good grief, all that crying and wailing over Test Privatization!
Maybe we should take up a collection to send him some Kleenex?

Robesin will interpret that as some kind of sexual inuendo.

Seems to me that COLLEGE-level course tests that I took had a
LOT of memorization. Maybe we should all slam the academic
world for doing the same "memorization?" Hey, why not, all
those who failed college level courses can get a Wailing Wall!

Bill Gates at the wailing wall?

My state drivers' license testing is done from multiple-choice
and that requires MUCH memorization of the applicable laws.
While the CA DMV does not publish the EXACT answers, the have
lots and lots of examples, not only well-publicized but available
free in little booklets at each DMV office. Maybe Klein wants
me to take an ME degree course in automotive engineering just
to drive our Malibu MAXX? :-)

I sure hope he doesn't answer that question.

You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted
here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want
to get on the air. Period.

W3RV didn't wait to get a ham license before operating! He just wanted
to get on the air. Period.

Point?

All you wonderful OF's taking trips down memory lane forget that some
of your brother hams were bootleggers.

It's only the unwashed No-code Techs that operate illegally. Hi!!!
What a stinking load.

Brian, if you check out the "official" history of the ARRL
you will find out that they BEGAN in trying to circumvent
the commercial telegram system with a relaying of messages
past the commercial boundaries and FEES. If that were
reported today, the journalists would call it "hacking."

Oh, oh.

If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must
also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY
(which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc.

I have no problem with that.

Then go for it.

It is the ONLY legitimate recourse you have for retaining the Morse
Code exam.

Best of luck.

I hope he tries it. I'm anxious to find out how much hostility
he will engender from his fellow amateurs who are VEs...how they
have to spend many more hours (of their own time) in testing
each license applicant (separately). Ought to go over like a
concrete balloon...

Forced learning of Morse Code...

Trained as an EE. Spent years designing RF circuitry, then went into
digital design. "Is", not yet "was" - I'm still alive.

Are you drawing a pension from it? "Was."

Are you drawing a paycheck from it? "Is."

And it's so typical for Old Timers to forget that not everyone in the
ARS are CAREERIST PROFESSIONALS. Bitching and Moaning about how
everyone else doesn't know as much as them.

Klein has yet to define his own label, whether it is "professional
amateur" or "amateur professional." He seems undecided.

I'm one of the (chronological) Olde Fahrts in this group but I
pray to God that I won't ever get as bad as some of them with
their retro attitudes and fixations with modes of their long-
ago youth, the ultra importance of CLASS and RANK. Geez.

You'd think that some of them regard amateur radio like the
USMC! ["the few, the ultra proud (of morsemanship)"]

I'm just a beginner. Passed my Novice Exam in November 1986.

Let's have a test that
shows whether the testee knows anything.

Remember that you are handsomely compensated for your professional
knowledge. Amateur Radio is a non-compensated hobby.

Some of these Olde Fahrts seem to think their amateurism is on
some kind of "higher plane" than ordinary, plebian, work.
They be BETTER than the pros and keep reinforcing each other
with that pipe-dream. After all, the ARRL keeps reminding
them of their greatness, their "service to their country"
(by having their hobby). To hear them talk the nation would
immediately fall apart without these federally-licensed
hobbyists!

Don't know if you've heard yet, but the ARRL and robesin announced that
MARS and TSA have an agreement for armageddon communications.

We'll have to get Mr. Webster to work coming up with a better
definition of the hobby. Is it "professional amateurism" or
"amateur professionalism?" I opt for the latter but others
may differ.

Beep, beep...



Didit.

From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm


wrote:
From: on Thurs, Aug 10 2006 8:48 pm
Al Klein wrote:
On 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700, wrote:


That's my point - there's no test any longer. For anything more than
the ability to memorize answers.

Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing
in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift...

Selective amnesia. "No one had to memorize anything" prior 1992.
Not in grade school, not in college, not in industry, not in
real life. Strange perception...

Selective amnesia...

With the advent of the No-Code Technician license, memorization became
a bad, bad thing.

Tsk. Brian, there's another individual for study by that psych
student.

Ummm? There's no Morse Code test anymore?

The International Morse Code test for United States amateur
radio license classes General and Extra have NEVER GONE AWAY.

That is especially true in the perception of the ARRL which
still manages to insert the "necessities" for morsemanship
in nearly everything it publishes. It's been six decades
since Hiram Percy became ultimate DX but they still keep on
with their demand that all [US] amateurs be proficient in
that old mode.

Most issues of QST have a minimum of at least one walk down memory
lane, usually with a key or keyer in one hand.

ARRL views itself as "representative" of the ARS. Unfortunately,
the 'ARS' stands for Amateur Radiotelegraphy Society.


What current exam? Memorizing answers and writing them down isn't a
test.

So what is it that you fear?

Klein fears CHANGE and, perhaps, feelings of obsolescence.

I think everyone has some of that to one degree or another. It's
unhealthy to allow that fear to paralyze you.

Yes and no. When it comes to Status-Rank-Privilege the fear
of LOSS of those seems to take on a life of its own. They
are SOMEBODIES at present, complete with federally-authorized
permission and certificates (suitable for framing) to "prove"
that. Take away the status, the rank, and perhaps privileges
and they are (in their own perception) "lesser beings." That
seems to work with the normal prime survival rule in humans.


Someone who has been a regular worker in electronics (radio is a
subset of electronics) ought to damn well know and recognize
that the state of the art in electronics has been CONSTANTLY
changing. It's sometimes a chore to keep up, whether it be
1950 or 2000 or any time in-between.

There will be new challenges before us tomorrow, but we won't know
about them. We will still be arguing if a morse code exam is
necessary.

True. "Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday." :-)


Mmmm. I see. You are a careerist in the electronics industry and it
****es you off that hobbyists have equal "status" as you in amatuer
radio. I've run across a lot of that in the past 20 years...

I've run across a lot of that my entire life. :-)

I think Klein wants recognition as a "professional amateur" or
"amateur professional." I'm not sure which...

He's a professional whiner.

:-)


What if you addressed what I said when you answer me? Your dishonest
tactics are transparent.

You're the one that forgot the circuit, not me. Get ****ed at your own
self.

When in doubt of an effective reply, these Fundamentalist Morseodists
must resort to some form of denigration. Sigh, they never learn...

My dishonest, transparent tactics...

Odd, saying what you mean and meaning what you say have become
dishonest.

Klein is just a teeny bit more civil than Major Dud. Robeson
just shouts "LIAR! LIAR!" :-)



Quit putting words in my mouth. I wasn't complaining to anyone, and
we weren't discussing remembering 50 year old tests.

Correct. "WE" weren't discussing it. YOU were. YOU were discussing
how you can't draw what you can't remember.

This is an indicator that Klein isn't used to computer-modem
communications. He isn't looking beyond his own screen and
understanding that others are separated from it in time and space.
"He" was obviously talking about "old days" of "His." He is not
considering that others do not share his viewpoints.

I regret to inform Mr Klein that I do not agree with him.

I also don't agree with him. Maybe he's gotten the message?


Considering the Type of Oscillator and "names," he has put
Names as somehow "essential" to the circuit. NO SUCH THING.
An oscillator is simply an amplifier of just-barely-past-unity
gain with positive feedback. The Names were tacked on by
academics long, long ago as IDENTIFICATION of the general form
of amplification-with-positive-feedback.

I'm surprised that Klein allows any feedback in his oscillator
circuits.

Positive feedback (pro-code type) allowed. Negative feedback
is "dishonest." :-)



Maybe we should have one - show the ability to put a clean PSK signal
on the air. Show the ability to interpret a waterfall display. Show
the ability to tell the difference between various digital modes. The
bands would be pretty QRM-free.

YES!!!

[ no... ]

Huh? Lets let the FCC tell us that it is impractical to have everyone
take mode exams. Or lets let the council of VECs tul us the same
thing.

Klein, armed only with an air of self-importance and inflated
claims of experience, is shooting from the lip.

IF and only IF such a "practical test" were imposed, the time
of testing EACH license applicant would increase dramatically.
VEs would have to spend at least a day's worth of time on each
applicant. I think VEs would object to such enforced labor in
a Volunteer task.

As with other proponents of a "practical test," Klein hasn't
explained WHO will maintain the equipment necessary for such
"practical tests" nor make up the much-more-complicated test
tasks and grading. Who will pay for the equipment that would
cover "everything" as to modes and operations? The FCC? The
VECs? Who will pay the VEs for their (essentially) "jobs"?

Klein assigns an importance and ability of AMATEUR activities
in radio far higher than professional ones. This is wrong,
but it serves his and other pro-coders self-image of being
"better" because they passed tests lobbied-for by those of
the same mindset.


If the league pushes the morse testing issue too hard, it will become
obvious to the 25% that are members.

I don't think so. The Amateur Radiotelegraphy Society is very
firmly SET in their ideas of keeping the "heritage" and
"tradition" of being a living museum of archaic radio. Those
firm believers and worshippers at the Church of St. Hiram are
disciples and they haven't had their last supper yet.


I think it is you who don't know where you're going with this
discussion. It's gone beyond your having grief over your favorite mode
to actually having to think about the future of the service.
Conggrats. Another couple of years of RRAP tutoring and you just might
become a rational being.

I disagree, Brian. Klein is a MORSEMAN. They don't change.
They are rooted in old days long gone, brainwashed early into
thinking that morsemanship is "essential" to "best" radio
communication. It isn't...easily proved by ALL the OTHER
radio services giving up on morse code as a mode (if they
had it once) or never requiring it since a radio service began.

Actuarial tables abound to deal with that kind of thinking.

That's a draconian sort of realism...but, unfortunately true.

Believers can be extremely stubborn. "The only way you'll stop
morse code is to pry my code key from my cold, dead fingers"
isn't an idle threat. Morsemen as SOMEBODIES and they will
hold that banner high even as they crumble.


Yep. Testing must become more "legitimate" for hobbyists than for
professionals.

Self-inflation of importance, meaningless in reality.


The exam can be anything your VEC wants it to be. We learned this when
the ARRL went from administering a Morse Code Exam at 5WPM to
administering a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15WPM.

True enough, Brian, but expect ten kinds of flak from the
other morsepersons in here on that... :-)

Quack, Quack! Water off a duck's back.

:-)


The VEC can LEGALLY generate a Question Pool with ONE HUNDRED
times the minimum required number of questions. With electronic
transmittal over the Internet the Question Pool can be updated
within 24 hours to ALL VE groups.

But everytime the NCVEC solicits for questions and participants for the
QP revisions, guys like Klein are silent; absent.

That shows they are only whining, not thinking. In order to
preserve their self-image of importance they have to continue
whining on how they are so self-important. If they REALLY
CARED about their sacred amateurism they would get busy and
work at preserving things. Perhaps mumifying instead of
preservation...


What all that concentration on the "written tests" is about is
just a DIVERSION to keep from replying on the singular morse
code test continuation. The morsemen just haven't been able
to come up with sufficently-valid reasons to keep the morse
test (other than the emotional ones) so they smoke-screen by
bringing up the writtens. Old tactic of theirs.

Old and tired.

It is, but they are self-important because of a singular skill
test that makes them "better" than others..."better" in ways
not even remotely connected to that singular skill test.


Seems to me that COLLEGE-level course tests that I took had a
LOT of memorization. Maybe we should all slam the academic
world for doing the same "memorization?" Hey, why not, all
those who failed college level courses can get a Wailing Wall!

Bill Gates at the wailing wall?

Nah...Bill G. QUIT Harvard "to pursue other interests." :-)

He could probably BUY Harvard now...and have lots more left
in his petty-cash box. :-)

Oh, yeah, and Bill Gates is PRO-CODE! Only problem for hams is
that the "code" isn't morse but programming code... :-)


Brian, if you check out the "official" history of the ARRL
you will find out that they BEGAN in trying to circumvent
the commercial telegram system with a relaying of messages
past the commercial boundaries and FEES. If that were
reported today, the journalists would call it "hacking."

Oh, oh.

It is TRUE according to the ARRL's own history. But, they've
written it (cleverly) so that it LOOKS like some kind of
noble thing that "wasn't cheating anyone." :-)


Some of these Olde Fahrts seem to think their amateurism is on
some kind of "higher plane" than ordinary, plebian, work.
They be BETTER than the pros and keep reinforcing each other
with that pipe-dream. After all, the ARRL keeps reminding
them of their greatness, their "service to their country"
(by having their hobby). To hear them talk the nation would
immediately fall apart without these federally-licensed
hobbyists!

Don't know if you've heard yet, but the ARRL and robesin announced that
MARS and TSA have an agreement for armageddon communications.

Heh heh, I wouldn't doubt it... :-)

[via "giant meteor bounce?" ... off the earth, that is? :-) ]

I thought Robesin had put on his (invisible) USMC uniform and
was busy pounding brass with the USCG offshore from Beirut to
evacuate US civilians? :-)

LenCan'tPassThe wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm

Most issues of QST have a minimum of at least one walk down memory
lane, usually with a key or keyer in one hand.

ARRL views itself as "representative" of the ARS. Unfortunately,
the 'ARS' stands for Amateur Radiotelegraphy Society.

At the Anderscum residence, perhaps.

For the nearly 700,000 of us with licenses, it's the Amateur Radio
Service.

Note: Leonard H. Anderson is not an FCC licensee in that service.

I think everyone has some of that to one degree or another. It's
unhealthy to allow that fear to paralyze you.

Yes and no. When it comes to Status-Rank-Privilege the fear
of LOSS of those seems to take on a life of its own.

You would know, Lennie...

It's YOU that perceives that loss...For by taking the same test
mere mortals do, you "surrender" your "I Was An Electronics Engineer"
brags.

Snip of usual Anti-Amateur Radio rhetoric.

Odd, saying what you mean and meaning what you say have become
dishonest.

Klein is just a teeny bit more civil than Major Dud. Robeson
just shouts "LIAR! LIAR!"

Who's "Major Dud"..?!?!

And I don't have to shout it, Lennie...

You make it quite apparent.

I regret to inform Mr Klein that I do not agree with him.

I also don't agree with him. Maybe he's gotten the message?

Maybe he doesn't see the need to try and "debate" those who only
want to throw sand...?!?!

If the league pushes the morse testing issue too hard, it will become
obvious to the 25% that are members.

I don't think so. The Amateur Radiotelegraphy Society is very
firmly SET in their ideas of keeping the "heritage" and
"tradition" of being a living museum of archaic radio. Those
firm believers and worshippers at the Church of St. Hiram are
disciples and they haven't had their last supper yet.

Thankfully OUR "last supper" will come long, LONG after yours,
Lennie...

Actuarial tables abound to deal with that kind of thinking.

That's a draconian sort of realism...but, unfortunately true.

And as I was saying...Let's hope YOUR tables are into small
numbers.

MORE SNIPPAGE

Don't know if you've heard yet, but the ARRL and robesin announced that
MARS and TSA have an agreement for armageddon communications.

Heh heh, I wouldn't doubt it...

"Armageddon"...?!?!

No one announced "armageddon" in any release that I am aware of.

Why did you?

Yet more evidence of why it's better to have Lennie "Can't Pass An
Exam" Anderson on the outside looking in.

Steve, K4YZ

K4YZ wrote:
LenCan'tPassThe wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm

Geee? Robesin is still forging attributes... Some things just never
change.

Don't know if you've heard yet, but the ARRL and robesin announced that
MARS and TSA have an agreement for armageddon communications.

Heh heh, I wouldn't doubt it...

"Armageddon"...?!?!

No one announced "armageddon" in any release that I am aware of.

Why did you?

Yet more evidence of why it's better to have Lennie "Can't Pass An
Exam" Anderson on the outside looking in.

Steve, K4YZ

The ARRL Letter, Vol. 25, No. 33, August 18, 2006

ARRL First Vice President Kay Craigie, N3KN, represented the League at
the
Global Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Conference 2006:

"Craigie stressed that Amateur Radio needs to avoid "being dazzled by
our
own press clippings into thinking that we are the big dog in emergency
telecommunications.""

wrote:
From: an old friend on Mon, Aug 21 2006 3:16 pm
wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm


It's "minority rule" when ARRL lobbies for preservation of
morse code test for any amateur radio license class. The
ARRL membership is slightly less than a quarter of all US
amateur radio licensees.

The ARRL is trying to soften their image - the latest QST shows a
person using a, gulp, microphone on the FRONT cover!

Good grief! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Just inside is yet another article on building a code key - from a door
hinge.

Oh, goody...HIGH TECH construction article.

Would they follow that with another article on the door itself?
Like, I mean, making the door a jar? :-)



Ahem...my reference was the old fairy tale, "The Emperor's New
Clothes." :-)

That's the one where a full-of-himself ruler ordered some new
clothes and the tailor buttered him up (while not sewing any
new clothes) so much that the Emperor bought into this pandering
to his ego and appeared in public with his "new clothes" (he was
naked). Needless to say, the public laughed and laughed at this
ridiculous spectacle. :-)

Robeson has been all full of himself in here about his alleged
"USMC service" yet he has presented zero-point-zero evidence
from anyone else (or any legitimate agency) that he ever
served on active USMC duty for any of his claimed "18 years."

Even though he NOW thinks of himself AS the amateur radio
service personified (anything against him is somehow against
ALL radio amateurs), he is still parodying the "Emperor."

This just in from The ARRL Letter, Vol. 25, No. 33, August 18, 2006

"ARRL First Vice President Kay Craigie, N3KN, represented the League at the
Global Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Conference 2006."

"Craigie stressed that Amateur Radio needs to avoid "being dazzled by our
own press clippings into thinking that we are the big dog in emergency
telecommunications.""

She refers to robesin-like attitudes within the ARS.

Oh. My. God. ! ! !

Tsk, just because NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, FOX, ESPN, and PBS haven't
covered the tremendously fantastic wonderfullest huge contribution
to saving lives and property via ham radio? Gosh, there are all
sorts of clippings from obscure weekly and biweekly newspapers
dutifully cut-and-pasted into messages here from Robesin & Co.

Maybe I'll have to write the Department of Defense and say that
"Major" Robesin said that radio amateurs run MARS! They should
fortwith cease and desist publishing DoD Directives on thinking
that they started it and keep running it!

Maybe I missed the "news" on the Home and Garden Channel...I don't
watch that much...

Right and all the other radio services are switching to morse
code for all emergency communications a la ham radio...the sky
has truly fallen!

didit!

Dahdah comrade. :-)

wrote:
wrote:
From: an old friend on Mon, Aug 21 2006 3:16 pm
wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm


It's "minority rule" when ARRL lobbies for preservation of
morse code test for any amateur radio license class. The
ARRL membership is slightly less than a quarter of all US
amateur radio licensees.

The ARRL is trying to soften their image - the latest QST shows a
person using a, gulp, microphone on the FRONT cover!

Good grief! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

It may be for some.

Just inside is yet another article on building a code key - from a door
hinge.

Oh, goody...HIGH TECH construction article.

They didn't mention wether you should use oil or conductive grease on
the hinge.

Would they follow that with another article on the door itself?
Like, I mean, making the door a jar? :-)

Wow! We almost leaped from a door hinge to a jar head.

Ahem...my reference was the old fairy tale, "The Emperor's New
Clothes." :-)

That's the one where a full-of-himself ruler ordered some new
clothes and the tailor buttered him up (while not sewing any
new clothes) so much that the Emperor bought into this pandering
to his ego and appeared in public with his "new clothes" (he was
naked). Needless to say, the public laughed and laughed at this
ridiculous spectacle. :-)

Robeson has been all full of himself in here about his alleged
"USMC service" yet he has presented zero-point-zero evidence
from anyone else (or any legitimate agency) that he ever
served on active USMC duty for any of his claimed "18 years."

Even though he NOW thinks of himself AS the amateur radio
service personified (anything against him is somehow against
ALL radio amateurs), he is still parodying the "Emperor."

This just in from The ARRL Letter, Vol. 25, No. 33, August 18, 2006

"ARRL First Vice President Kay Craigie, N3KN, represented the League at the
Global Amateur Radio Emergency Communications Conference 2006."

"Craigie stressed that Amateur Radio needs to avoid "being dazzled by our
own press clippings into thinking that we are the big dog in emergency
telecommunications.""

She refers to robesin-like attitudes within the ARS.

Oh. My. God. ! ! !

Tsk, just because NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, FOX, ESPN, and PBS haven't
covered the tremendously fantastic wonderfullest huge contribution
to saving lives and property via ham radio? Gosh, there are all
sorts of clippings from obscure weekly and biweekly newspapers
dutifully cut-and-pasted into messages here from Robesin & Co.

And probably at least as credible as the rest of the news they carry.

Maybe I'll have to write the Department of Defense and say that
"Major" Robesin said that radio amateurs run MARS!

He did.

They should
fortwith cease and desist publishing DoD Directives on thinking
that they started it and keep running it!

They live in a fantasy world.

Maybe I missed the "news" on the Home and Garden Channel...I don't
watch that much...

Right and all the other radio services are switching to morse
code for all emergency communications a la ham radio

The American Public would sue them for slow service and wrongful
deaths.

...the sky
has truly fallen!

The other shoe would drop.

didit!

Dahdah comrade. :-)



bb

wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm


Selective amnesia. "No one had to memorize anything" prior 1992.
Not in grade school, not in college, not in industry, not in
real life. Strange perception...

Selective amnesia...

With the advent of the No-Code Technician license, memorization became
a bad, bad thing.

Tsk. Brian, there's another individual for study by that psych
student.
are we even sure of that? he might be robeson after all or dave or a
few others under another nick

wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm

If the league pushes the morse testing issue too hard, it will become
obvious to the 25% that are members.

I don't think so. The Amateur Radiotelegraphy Society is very
firmly SET in their ideas of keeping the "heritage" and
"tradition" of being a living museum of archaic radio. Those
firm believers and worshippers at the Church of St. Hiram are
disciples and they haven't had their last supper yet.

I have no objection to them trying to prservs thier mode the ARS is big
enough even for unproductive thing
Don't know if you've heard yet, but the ARRL and robesin announced that
MARS and TSA have an agreement for armageddon communications.

Heh heh, I wouldn't doubt it... :-)

[via "giant meteor bounce?" ... off the earth, that is? :-) ]

I thought Robesin had put on his (invisible) USMC uniform and
was busy pounding brass with the USCG offshore from Beirut to
evacuate US civilians? :-)
now that remark I must take you to task for

the last thing we want to sugest that robeson might wear is something
invisible now that image IS a sexauly distrubing one

From: an old friend on Mon, Aug 21 2006 3:16 pm


wrote:
From: on Sun, Aug 20 2006 2:57 pm
If the league pushes the morse testing issue too hard, it will become
obvious to the 25% that are members.

I don't think so. The Amateur Radiotelegraphy Society is very
firmly SET in their ideas of keeping the "heritage" and
"tradition" of being a living museum of archaic radio. Those
firm believers and worshippers at the Church of St. Hiram are
disciples and they haven't had their last supper yet.

I have no objection to them trying to prservs thier mode the ARS is big
enough even for unproductive thing

It's "minority rule" when ARRL lobbies for preservation of
morse code test for any amateur radio license class. The
ARRL membership is slightly less than a quarter of all US
amateur radio licensees.

Don't know if you've heard yet, but the ARRL and robesin announced that
MARS and TSA have an agreement for armageddon communications.

Heh heh, I wouldn't doubt it... :-)

[via "giant meteor bounce?" ... off the earth, that is? :-) ]

I thought Robesin had put on his (invisible) USMC uniform and
was busy pounding brass with the USCG offshore from Beirut to
evacuate US civilians? :-)

now that remark I must take you to task for

the last thing we want to sugest that robeson might wear is something
invisible now that image IS a sexauly distrubing one

Ahem...my reference was the old fairy tale, "The Emperor's New
Clothes." :-)

That's the one where a full-of-himself ruler ordered some new
clothes and the tailor buttered him up (while not sewing any
new clothes) so much that the Emperor bought into this pandering
to his ego and appeared in public with his "new clothes" (he was
naked). Needless to say, the public laughed and laughed at this
ridiculous spectacle. :-)

Robeson has been all full of himself in here about his alleged
"USMC service" yet he has presented zero-point-zero evidence
from anyone else (or any legitimate agency) that he ever
served on active USMC duty for any of his claimed "18 years."

Even though he NOW thinks of himself AS the amateur radio
service personified (anything against him is somehow against
ALL radio amateurs), he is still parodying the "Emperor."