D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
dxAce wrote:
wrote:

mike maghakian wrote:
a used sony 6800 just went for over $800 on ebay, even though the past few
have sold for less than $400. there was nothing special about it !
Wow, thanks for posting that link. Now that is truly astounding. How
can Ebay allow such bidding to happen in a public place. Collectors
should not be allowed to perpetrate that kind of bidding action and run
up the price. It's just terrible to think that Ebay actually allowed
the final bidder to pay more for the radio than the next-to-the-last
bidder.
And when Mike Maghakian bids, the auction should end right then and there. After
all, the radio can't possibly be worth more than what he is willing to pay,
right?

Shame on eBay.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Mike comes by some of his skepticism honestly, though. One of the
groups he was involved in was a rather close group of Grundig
collectors, some of whom put radios up for time to time. And other
members would bid up the price to see to it that legitimate bidders paid
their maximum bid. I left the group because of it.

That group, as I understand it, is no longer in existence, but
watching that kind or activity definitely leaves a bad taste, even for
legitimate auctions that reach stratospheric prices. Add to it the noise
of Radio-Mart and others who prey on novices to the hobby with their
deceptive practices, and....well, you get a pretty jaded view of not
only e-Bay but some sellers here on the newsgroup.

The real problem with e-Bay is that it tends to attract a very large
group of individuals, some with deep resources, with interest in any
given product, creating the potential for a bidding war with absurd
outcomes. Whereas a local brick and mortar auction draws from a limited
pool of interested individuals, most of whom may not be interested in
any given product. Prices remain reasonable. Values can be had.

By its nature, e-Bay favors the seller, and the house...the very
reasons e-Bay exists. No one should be surprised at the nonsense that
occurs there. Unfortunately, it's popularity makes it the prime location
for the sale of products that we're all interested in. And few of us can
outbid Joe Walsh, or any like him, if he should decide he really wants
something.


Thom Monaghan entered the collector car market and virtually
singlehandedly drove most legitimate collectors out of the market by
driving up prices. Though that's not really likely to happen with SW
radios, a lot of formerly affordable rigs have been priced out of reach
by speculators and the antics of Radio-Mart and his kind.

Mike's disdain for these goofs is easily understood.

What is a "realistic" price for a good...any good at a given point in
time. From your comments it must not be the market or auction price.


Well, now, that's a really good question. Auction prices are not the
same as market prices. And rarely ever have been. Auction prices have
always represented extremes. I've gotten prices at brick and mortar
auctions of $1 for 4 vintage TRF's, each with a 'market' price of near
$200. The same rigs in similar condition have brought twice that and
more on e-Bay.
A well attended auction of real or personal property such as Ebay or a
brick and mortar auction will bring together a number of buyers and
sellers. They interact to establish sales prices that will certainly
vary for a lot of reasons but they represent a range of market prices
for the goods in question. The stock market is another example of an
auction that works reasonably well.


Actually, it's almost never the case that an auction creates a market
price.

Sure it does - the market price for many goods is ever changing.

Whether e-Bay or brick and mortar. What an auction does is create
a price of the moment, for a particular item, commodity, or recently, a
service. But the price established is not a market price that, taking
into account fluctuations of local or periodic interest, is a stable or
replicable benchmark. Primarily due to the broad and divergant specifics
for any given sale. Persons attending an auction of personal properties
are there often for personal reasons that have no basis in a market,
though they may have influence on a market price. Persons attending an
auction for commercial reasons have more convergant priorities, that
tend to create less random and extreme influences on prices.

Put another way, bidding wars among those attending for personal
reasons can get spirited, and end in extreme prices, whereas bidding
wars among commercial interests are more cautious, and do not end in
prices as extreme.

The stock market is a different kind of auction, where the prices are
set pursuant almost exclusively to commercial interests, and though
prices may vary from moment to moment, they are replicable worldwide,
and are not set by overbidding, as can happen in personal auctions.


They vary over time as the prices on Ebay for radios, antiques and lawn
mowers do.

And the key phrase of your point is 'well attended.' A well attended
brick and mortar auction is comparatively rare, with most attended in
small numbers of divergant interests. Interest in any given item is far
from assured. And is dramatically affected by local conditions. Whereas
with attendance of larger numbers, e-Bay being the extreme example,
interest in the spectrum of items is more uniform, but bidding can be
far more extreme on single items. The prices do not apply off e-Bay, or
even on e-Bay for similar items. Prices set apply to each auction. But
in the main do not apply beyond that auction. On the other hand, the
stock market, while very well attended, is less prone to extremes by
it's nature, and can set and apply a market price that obtains worldwide.


I've known antique shop owners who set the prices of their own
products at peak e-Bay prices. Such products tend not to move well at
brick and mortar stores. Then, again, it's not uncommon for an e-Bay
seller to turn loose of a usually high ticket item because of the way
the item was presented.
As with buyers who hope to buy a radio at pre-internet prices, such
sellers do not understand that Ebay brings both sides together and they
interact to establish a final price for one item that is realistic at
that point.
I beg to differ. The price will be determined for that auction, and
it will be agreed to by the buyer and seller, but that does not mean
it's reasonable.


But that is the way of any auction, whether for commodities, interest
rate futures, radios on Ebay. Could you possibly imagine a buyer or
seller settling and trading at an unreasonable price? You may not like
the price, but it did represent the market clearing price for that one
deal.

Even buyers who overbid will admit that they paid too much.

Live and learn... At the time they felt it was a reasonable price.
Hindsight can be different.


That price will likely not hold tomorrow for a variety of
reasons including buyer interest, condition of the new items and number
of sellers with the same item.

A realistic price for a sw radio is rarely an auction price. Market
price will prevail, because it's usually stable. And not subject to the
wide variations found at auction. But, personally, I don't think market
price is often that realistic. I'm not likely to spend large dollars on
sentiment, and the performance of vintage rigs would be easily exceeded
by common-as-crabgrass low end pieces for fractions of the price.
It would seem to me that a realistic price is the one that aligns the
expectations of buyers and sellers and allows a deal to be completed.
An unrealistic price would be one where the seller or the buyer hopes
prices will stay fixed and they will be able to deal at yesterday's
price.


You're making my point for me. A realistic price would be stable.

Have you ever seen prices for commodities, derivatives, stocks,
gasoline, radios on Ebay that changed sometimes rapidly? I have.


That's not to say immune to fluctuation, but it would be largely
replicable over a wide area, for a period of time. Instantaneous prices
may or may not be realistic. But just because the buyer and seller agree
doesn't make it a realisic price. It only means that the price was
agreed to at that moment on that item. Stratospheric spikes or
depressions against a replicable market price are unrealistic.


I"ve spent $100 for higher end Hallicrafters rigs, but that's
unusual. And it's after I've beaten the seller back from something absurd.

Realistic price? In my room, that's usually something close to the
price I'd pay for the same performance in a pocket portable.

New radios are a different matter.



You've missed, or ignored, the point. I've nowhere said anything about
prices not varying, but drawn the distinction between the auction and
the market. There is an enormous difference. And it has to do with
replicability of a price range over a wide area. Auctions only create
prices for the moment, between single buyers and single sellers. Not a
generally applicable pricing over a market. One may be private between
individuals, whereas a market is driven by commercial issues.


Two years ago, a solid state ZT/O was bid up to 5 figures on eBay.

Prices for that model did not skyrocket. Speculators tried, but the
market wasn't having it.

Reasonable prices are not determined by individual transactions, but
by wide area, cumulative market history.


Restating once again, I have yet to find a buyer and seller who at the
conclusion of a deal who felt the price was unrealistic. Think about
it for a minute.

In article .com,
wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
dxAce wrote:
wrote:

mike maghakian wrote:
a used sony 6800 just went for over $800 on ebay, even though the
past few
have sold for less than $400. there was nothing special about it !
Wow, thanks for posting that link. Now that is truly astounding. How
can Ebay allow such bidding to happen in a public place. Collectors
should not be allowed to perpetrate that kind of bidding action and
run
up the price. It's just terrible to think that Ebay actually allowed
the final bidder to pay more for the radio than the next-to-the-last
bidder.
And when Mike Maghakian bids, the auction should end right then and
there. After
all, the radio can't possibly be worth more than what he is willing to
pay,
right?

Shame on eBay.

dxAce
Michigan
USA



Mike comes by some of his skepticism honestly, though. One of the
groups he was involved in was a rather close group of Grundig
collectors, some of whom put radios up for time to time. And other
members would bid up the price to see to it that legitimate bidders paid
their maximum bid. I left the group because of it.

That group, as I understand it, is no longer in existence, but
watching that kind or activity definitely leaves a bad taste, even for
legitimate auctions that reach stratospheric prices. Add to it the noise
of Radio-Mart and others who prey on novices to the hobby with their
deceptive practices, and....well, you get a pretty jaded view of not
only e-Bay but some sellers here on the newsgroup.

The real problem with e-Bay is that it tends to attract a very large
group of individuals, some with deep resources, with interest in any
given product, creating the potential for a bidding war with absurd
outcomes. Whereas a local brick and mortar auction draws from a limited
pool of interested individuals, most of whom may not be interested in
any given product. Prices remain reasonable. Values can be had.

By its nature, e-Bay favors the seller, and the house...the very
reasons e-Bay exists. No one should be surprised at the nonsense that
occurs there. Unfortunately, it's popularity makes it the prime location
for the sale of products that we're all interested in. And few of us can
outbid Joe Walsh, or any like him, if he should decide he really wants
something.


Thom Monaghan entered the collector car market and virtually
singlehandedly drove most legitimate collectors out of the market by
driving up prices. Though that's not really likely to happen with SW
radios, a lot of formerly affordable rigs have been priced out of reach
by speculators and the antics of Radio-Mart and his kind.

Mike's disdain for these goofs is easily understood.



What is a "realistic" price for a good...any good at a given point in
time. From your comments it must not be the market or auction price.




Well, now, that's a really good question. Auction prices are not the
same as market prices. And rarely ever have been. Auction prices have
always represented extremes. I've gotten prices at brick and mortar
auctions of $1 for 4 vintage TRF's, each with a 'market' price of near
$200. The same rigs in similar condition have brought twice that and
more on e-Bay.

A well attended auction of real or personal property such as Ebay or a
brick and mortar auction will bring together a number of buyers and
sellers. They interact to establish sales prices that will certainly
vary for a lot of reasons but they represent a range of market prices
for the goods in question. The stock market is another example of an
auction that works reasonably well.

That's an interesting observation. Please explain how Ebay conducts a
"real" auction.

I've known antique shop owners who set the prices of their own
products at peak e-Bay prices. Such products tend not to move well at
brick and mortar stores. Then, again, it's not uncommon for an e-Bay
seller to turn loose of a usually high ticket item because of the way
the item was presented.

As with buyers who hope to buy a radio at pre-internet prices, such
sellers do not understand that Ebay brings both sides together and they
interact to establish a final price for one item that is realistic at
that point. That price will likely not hold tomorrow for a variety of
reasons including buyer interest, condition of the new items and number
of sellers with the same item.

What you are calling the final price is the market price, which is the
price agreed on.

A realistic price for a sw radio is rarely an auction price. Market
price will prevail, because it's usually stable. And not subject to the
wide variations found at auction. But, personally, I don't think market
price is often that realistic. I'm not likely to spend large dollars on
sentiment, and the performance of vintage rigs would be easily exceeded
by common-as-crabgrass low end pieces for fractions of the price.

It would seem to me that a realistic price is the one that aligns the
expectations of buyers and sellers and allows a deal to be completed.
An unrealistic price would be one where the seller or the buyer hopes
prices will stay fixed and they will be able to deal at yesterday's
price.

The seller posts the ask price.
The buyer posts the bid price.
If the transaction "happens" it "occurs" at the "market price."
If the transaction "occurs" one of two things or both must "happen":
1. The seller comes down in price.
2. The buyer goes up in price.

At the auction, the seller has stated that he will sell to the highest
bid price usually above some minimum stated price.

I"ve spent $100 for higher end Hallicrafters rigs, but that's
unusual. And it's after I've beaten the seller back from something absurd.

Realistic price? In my room, that's usually something close to the
price I'd pay for the same performance in a pocket portable.

New radios are a different matter.

Ask, bid and market price is well-established concepts. The argument
seems to revolve around what is an actual market in SW radios. If EBay
is the place that most (the clear majority) of SW radios are sold, then
I would argue that the EBay auction sold price is the market price. If
more radios were sold in other venues then it would not be.

The situation as I see it is, EBay is a virtual market not a real one
where a virtual radio is being sold by a virtual seller and I would be
competing against other virtual buyers so I would have to have "faith"
that the radio is as described and the other bidders are real and
serious about acquiring the radio. This is a very tenuous situation and
nothing is properly established as far as I am concerned on EBay much
of the time. Moreover, I perceive the used SW radio market as small
where a few sellers and buyers can have a big influence on prices. Like
Steve Marten said "Let's (all) get small."

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:
dxAce wrote:
wrote:

mike maghakian wrote:
a used sony 6800 just went for over $800 on ebay, even though the past few
have sold for less than $400. there was nothing special about it !
Wow, thanks for posting that link. Now that is truly astounding. How
can Ebay allow such bidding to happen in a public place. Collectors
should not be allowed to perpetrate that kind of bidding action and run
up the price. It's just terrible to think that Ebay actually allowed
the final bidder to pay more for the radio than the next-to-the-last
bidder.
And when Mike Maghakian bids, the auction should end right then and there. After
all, the radio can't possibly be worth more than what he is willing to pay,
right?

Shame on eBay.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Mike comes by some of his skepticism honestly, though. One of the
groups he was involved in was a rather close group of Grundig
collectors, some of whom put radios up for time to time. And other
members would bid up the price to see to it that legitimate bidders paid
their maximum bid. I left the group because of it.

That group, as I understand it, is no longer in existence, but
watching that kind or activity definitely leaves a bad taste, even for
legitimate auctions that reach stratospheric prices. Add to it the noise
of Radio-Mart and others who prey on novices to the hobby with their
deceptive practices, and....well, you get a pretty jaded view of not
only e-Bay but some sellers here on the newsgroup.

The real problem with e-Bay is that it tends to attract a very large
group of individuals, some with deep resources, with interest in any
given product, creating the potential for a bidding war with absurd
outcomes. Whereas a local brick and mortar auction draws from a limited
pool of interested individuals, most of whom may not be interested in
any given product. Prices remain reasonable. Values can be had.

By its nature, e-Bay favors the seller, and the house...the very
reasons e-Bay exists. No one should be surprised at the nonsense that
occurs there. Unfortunately, it's popularity makes it the prime location
for the sale of products that we're all interested in. And few of us can
outbid Joe Walsh, or any like him, if he should decide he really wants
something.


Thom Monaghan entered the collector car market and virtually
singlehandedly drove most legitimate collectors out of the market by
driving up prices. Though that's not really likely to happen with SW
radios, a lot of formerly affordable rigs have been priced out of reach
by speculators and the antics of Radio-Mart and his kind.

Mike's disdain for these goofs is easily understood.

What is a "realistic" price for a good...any good at a given point in
time. From your comments it must not be the market or auction price.

Well, now, that's a really good question. Auction prices are not the
same as market prices. And rarely ever have been. Auction prices have
always represented extremes. I've gotten prices at brick and mortar
auctions of $1 for 4 vintage TRF's, each with a 'market' price of near
$200. The same rigs in similar condition have brought twice that and
more on e-Bay.
A well attended auction of real or personal property such as Ebay or a
brick and mortar auction will bring together a number of buyers and
sellers. They interact to establish sales prices that will certainly
vary for a lot of reasons but they represent a range of market prices
for the goods in question. The stock market is another example of an
auction that works reasonably well.

Actually, it's almost never the case that an auction creates a market
price.
Sure it does - the market price for many goods is ever changing.

Whether e-Bay or brick and mortar. What an auction does is create
a price of the moment, for a particular item, commodity, or recently, a
service. But the price established is not a market price that, taking
into account fluctuations of local or periodic interest, is a stable or
replicable benchmark. Primarily due to the broad and divergant specifics
for any given sale. Persons attending an auction of personal properties
are there often for personal reasons that have no basis in a market,
though they may have influence on a market price. Persons attending an
auction for commercial reasons have more convergant priorities, that
tend to create less random and extreme influences on prices.

Put another way, bidding wars among those attending for personal
reasons can get spirited, and end in extreme prices, whereas bidding
wars among commercial interests are more cautious, and do not end in
prices as extreme.

The stock market is a different kind of auction, where the prices are
set pursuant almost exclusively to commercial interests, and though
prices may vary from moment to moment, they are replicable worldwide,
and are not set by overbidding, as can happen in personal auctions.

They vary over time as the prices on Ebay for radios, antiques and lawn
mowers do.

And the key phrase of your point is 'well attended.' A well attended
brick and mortar auction is comparatively rare, with most attended in
small numbers of divergant interests. Interest in any given item is far
from assured. And is dramatically affected by local conditions. Whereas
with attendance of larger numbers, e-Bay being the extreme example,
interest in the spectrum of items is more uniform, but bidding can be
far more extreme on single items. The prices do not apply off e-Bay, or
even on e-Bay for similar items. Prices set apply to each auction. But
in the main do not apply beyond that auction. On the other hand, the
stock market, while very well attended, is less prone to extremes by
it's nature, and can set and apply a market price that obtains worldwide.


I've known antique shop owners who set the prices of their own
products at peak e-Bay prices. Such products tend not to move well at
brick and mortar stores. Then, again, it's not uncommon for an e-Bay
seller to turn loose of a usually high ticket item because of the way
the item was presented.
As with buyers who hope to buy a radio at pre-internet prices, such
sellers do not understand that Ebay brings both sides together and they
interact to establish a final price for one item that is realistic at
that point.
I beg to differ. The price will be determined for that auction, and
it will be agreed to by the buyer and seller, but that does not mean
it's reasonable.

But that is the way of any auction, whether for commodities, interest
rate futures, radios on Ebay. Could you possibly imagine a buyer or
seller settling and trading at an unreasonable price? You may not like
the price, but it did represent the market clearing price for that one
deal.

Even buyers who overbid will admit that they paid too much.
Live and learn... At the time they felt it was a reasonable price.
Hindsight can be different.

That price will likely not hold tomorrow for a variety of
reasons including buyer interest, condition of the new items and number
of sellers with the same item.

A realistic price for a sw radio is rarely an auction price. Market
price will prevail, because it's usually stable. And not subject to the
wide variations found at auction. But, personally, I don't think market
price is often that realistic. I'm not likely to spend large dollars on
sentiment, and the performance of vintage rigs would be easily exceeded
by common-as-crabgrass low end pieces for fractions of the price.
It would seem to me that a realistic price is the one that aligns the
expectations of buyers and sellers and allows a deal to be completed.
An unrealistic price would be one where the seller or the buyer hopes
prices will stay fixed and they will be able to deal at yesterday's
price.

You're making my point for me. A realistic price would be stable.
Have you ever seen prices for commodities, derivatives, stocks,
gasoline, radios on Ebay that changed sometimes rapidly? I have.


That's not to say immune to fluctuation, but it would be largely
replicable over a wide area, for a period of time. Instantaneous prices
may or may not be realistic. But just because the buyer and seller agree
doesn't make it a realisic price. It only means that the price was
agreed to at that moment on that item. Stratospheric spikes or
depressions against a replicable market price are unrealistic.


I"ve spent $100 for higher end Hallicrafters rigs, but that's
unusual. And it's after I've beaten the seller back from something absurd.

Realistic price? In my room, that's usually something close to the
price I'd pay for the same performance in a pocket portable.

New radios are a different matter.

You've missed, or ignored, the point. I've nowhere said anything about
prices not varying, but drawn the distinction between the auction and
the market. There is an enormous difference. And it has to do with
replicability of a price range over a wide area. Auctions only create
prices for the moment, between single buyers and single sellers. Not a
generally applicable pricing over a market. One may be private between
individuals, whereas a market is driven by commercial issues.


Two years ago, a solid state ZT/O was bid up to 5 figures on eBay.

Prices for that model did not skyrocket. Speculators tried, but the
market wasn't having it.

Reasonable prices are not determined by individual transactions, but
by wide area, cumulative market history.


Restating once again, I have yet to find a buyer and seller who at the
conclusion of a deal who felt the price was unrealistic. Think about
it for a minute.



And restating once again, I have thought about it. And have
encountered countless experiences to the contrary.

And there we are. We disagree.

Have a good evening. Be seeing you.


p

That's not to say immune to fluctuation, but it would be largely
replicable over a wide area, for a period of time. Instantaneous prices
may or may not be realistic. But just because the buyer and seller agree
doesn't make it a realisic price. It only means that the price was
agreed to at that moment on that item. Stratospheric spikes or
depressions against a replicable market price are unrealistic.


I"ve spent $100 for higher end Hallicrafters rigs, but that's
unusual. And it's after I've beaten the seller back from something absurd.

Realistic price? In my room, that's usually something close to the
price I'd pay for the same performance in a pocket portable.

New radios are a different matter.

You've missed, or ignored, the point. I've nowhere said anything about
prices not varying, but drawn the distinction between the auction and
the market. There is an enormous difference. And it has to do with
replicability of a price range over a wide area. Auctions only create
prices for the moment, between single buyers and single sellers. Not a
generally applicable pricing over a market. One may be private between
individuals, whereas a market is driven by commercial issues.


Two years ago, a solid state ZT/O was bid up to 5 figures on eBay.

Prices for that model did not skyrocket. Speculators tried, but the
market wasn't having it.

Reasonable prices are not determined by individual transactions, but
by wide area, cumulative market history.


Restating once again, I have yet to find a buyer and seller who at the
conclusion of a deal who felt the price was unrealistic. Think about
it for a minute.



And restating once again, I have thought about it. And have
encountered countless experiences to the contrary.

And there we are. We disagree.

Have a good evening. Be seeing you.


p

I've bought and sold a few radios over the past 25 years. Certainly
not at the level of some collectors on this forum but enough to be able
to say I've spun the dial on a fair range of not new receivers. It's
fun to find something like a Sony 5900 for $20.00, National HRO500 for
$50.00, Panasonic RF5000 for $40.00, Zenith TO for $10.00, etc. Great
pleasure to clean them up and learn the radio's quirks and just make
them work. Those and other comparable radios were found unadvertised
at estate sales and an occasional antique auction for what I considered
attractive prices. At the time the prices were all the seller could
have gotten (realistic) because the wider world of radio owners and
collectors did not have easy access to local sales like that. The
availability of internet based auctions has permanently changed the
buyer-saller relationship. Local in-place estate sales are
disappearing because estate executors and sales managers have
discovered Ebay and the other sites. Brick-and-mortar auctioneers now
use internet-based bidding in more than one way. And prices have
risen because a wider range of buyers now have instantaneous access to
those things they can't live without. Consequently todays prices on
Ebay are largely realistic because they reflect the interaction of a
much larger population of buyers and sellers. If todays prices for
collectible radios are compared to those gotten 15 years ago I would
conclude that the prices realized earlier were largely undervalued
because of the limited interaction of buyers and sellers. I would love
to be able to buy a radio at yesterday's prices, but yesterday has long
since passed by.