news.rcn.com wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...


The whole problem is that people in the know have started to refer to
Gegen
as an innovative company which produces BETTER radios than Sony,
especially
after a bit of development.

Which people in the know started referring Gegen as producing better
radios than Sony.

What's a Gegen.
Degen is the company which seems to go under a variety of names. It
produces for Grundig amongst others: See
http://www.radiointel.com/review-kaitoka1101.htm (Kaito being another of
their names)

I know what Degen is. What is a Gegen.



Another reviewer said: " By no means will this be the final word on this
impressive little radio. The DE1102 will no doubt be talked about and
debated when it makes its way to the global Shortwave listening community.
Some will like the DE1102's page system while others may find it confusing
or irritating. But as with all radios, it's how well the radio receives
radio signals in the end determines mostly if it is a "good radio". The
DE1102 is a good radio." in http://www.radiointel.com/review-degende1102.htm



A company which goes against the grain of
development of Chinese companies which tend to produce amazing
technological
achievements in prototype form to show to their corporate customers which
then become tinny bits of junk with all corners cut to save money when
put
into production (see made-in-China versions of Sony VCRs which Sony tells
you to they will swap out or you can throw away if they ever go wrong)

I however have this radio and have noticed an alarming tendency towards
'the
Phillips effect', - putting features, knobs, mechanisms on it which
don't
actually do anything.

Really. Which specific knobs don't do anyhting on this radio.

What it calls the ATS feature. Also possibly the scan feature? Have you
tried it?


Are you saying that those knobs do not work? If you are then what do
you base that statement on.





It says it is dual conversion on Kaito's radios page but then on its own
page doesn't make any such claim. Which being the case it should have
some
pretty advanced circuitry to compensate for this but it doesn't make any
such claim.

What would it be compensating for by having dual conversion circuitry.
You will have to look that one up for precise details on pages too numerous
to mention

You said the dual conversion circuitry was compensating for this, but
never said what "this" was. Please explain.






only sports those 'Phillips' features.

Which features.
The scan feature?


What are Phillips features and why would they be on a Degen radio,
unless Degen was designing radios for Phillips.

What specifically is wrong with the scan feature.




Mine doesn't actually pick up any stations and when I bought it for this
amazing auto-memorising of 1000 short wave stations

It doesn't pick up ANY radio stations? I find that hard to believe
unless you forgot to put the batteries in.
(See later in my message for the meaning of this)

I am glad to hear that someone doesn't regard this piece as a toy and look
forward to your informed review of it? It could well be that I am doing
something wrong and I did indicate that Degen doesn't normally do this type
of thing.

Once again, you said it was not picking up any stations. I find it
impossible to believe it does not pick up any stations on any bands.

ha scritto nel messaggio
ups.com...
|
| news.rcn.com wrote:
| wrote in message
| ups.com...
|
|
| The whole problem is that people in the know have started to refer to
| Gegen
| as an innovative company which produces BETTER radios than Sony,
| especially
| after a bit of development.
|
| Which people in the know started referring Gegen as producing better
| radios than Sony.
|
| What's a Gegen.
| Degen is the company which seems to go under a variety of names. It
| produces for Grundig amongst others: See
| http://www.radiointel.com/review-kaitoka1101.htm (Kaito being another of
| their names)
|
| I know what Degen is. What is a Gegen.
|
|


Degen = Kaito

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/5071

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/4226

wrote in message
I know what Degen is.

Well that is a relief: I thought for a moment you were a troll for making a
statement about this in a thread where everyone else seems to know what they
are talking about !

What is a Gegen.



Another reviewer said: " By no means will this be the final word on this
impressive little radio. The DE1102 will no doubt be talked about and
debated when it makes its way to the global Shortwave listening
community.
Some will like the DE1102's page system while others may find it
confusing
or irritating. But as with all radios, it's how well the radio receives
radio signals in the end determines mostly if it is a "good radio". The
DE1102 is a good radio." in
http://www.radiointel.com/review-degende1102.htm

You dont say whether you agree that this is a company which produces
quality products? This is quite important under the circumstances of your
general comments on not having heard of them?

Really. Which specific knobs don't do anyhting on this radio.

What it calls the ATS feature. Also possibly the scan feature? Have you
tried it?


Are you saying that those knobs do not work? If you are then what do
you base that statement on.

I based it on pressing the scan button and the radio not picking up any
stations and enabling the ATS feature adn it only tuning to static. I would
have thought that somewhat obvious?





It says it is dual conversion on Kaito's radios page but then on its
own
page doesn't make any such claim. Which being the case it should have
some
pretty advanced circuitry to compensate for this but it doesn't make
any
such claim.

What would it be compensating for by having dual conversion circuitry.
You will have to look that one up for precise details on pages too
numerous
to mention

You said the dual conversion circuitry was compensating for this, but
never said what "this" was. Please explain.
The "this" means, in effect, not being dual conversion.






only sports those 'Phillips' features.

Which features.
The scan feature?


What are Phillips features and why would they be on a Degen radio,
unless Degen was designing radios for Phillips.
I see you have never owned a Phillips product like a short wave radio or a
pair of noise reducing headphones which have features and buttons on them
which do nothing! (It is not for me to tell you to go out and buy one and
see)
What specifically is wrong with the scan feature.
It scans past perfectly strong stations. And tunes to white noise.



Mine doesn't actually pick up any stations and when I bought it for
this
amazing auto-memorising of 1000 short wave stations

It doesn't pick up ANY radio stations? I find that hard to believe
unless you forgot to put the batteries in.
(See later in my message for the meaning of this)

I am glad to hear that someone doesn't regard this piece as a toy and
look
forward to your informed review of it? It could well be that I am doing
something wrong and I did indicate that Degen doesn't normally do this
type
of thing.

Once again, you said it was not picking up any stations. I find it
impossible to believe it does not pick up any stations on any bands.

In article ,
"news.rcn.com" news.rnc.com wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

The whole problem is that people in the know have started to refer
to Gegen as an innovative company which produces BETTER radios
than Sony, especially after a bit of development. A company
which goes against the grain of development of Chinese companies
which tend to produce amazing technological achievements in
prototype form to show to their corporate customers which then
become tinny bits of junk with all corners cut to save money when
put into production (see made-in-China versions of Sony VCRs which
Sony tells you to they will swap out or you can throw away if they
ever go wrong)

Keep on dreaming your dreamy dreams.

It is not clear whether you know what you are talking about with this
comment: My statement came from an American who spends most of his
time living in China where he has to deal with this attitude on what
I mentioned were OTHER Chinese companies.

I know what I am talking about. My vague general statement refers to
the quality of Chinese produced products compared to a Japanese company
such as Sony. The Chinese are not up to that quality level but I have
no doubt that with the investment American companies have made in China
it will not be long before they will be up to that same level. Maybe in
a few more years.

Or is your point that you don't agree that Degen aren't one of these
companies and DO produce junk? Not sure anyone around here agrees
with you on this controversial point?

From comments on the news group, Internet research, and my direct
experience with Chinese made products the Chinese are not up to the
quality level the majority of Japanese companies have attained.

I don't think the Degen's are junk but at the same time many have
raised quality issues in the news group with Degen radios.

Hopefully Degen will one day produce a high quality radio.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"news.rcn.com" news.rnc.com wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

The whole problem is that people in the know have started to refer
to Gegen as an innovative company which produces BETTER radios
than Sony, especially after a bit of development. A company
which goes against the grain of development of Chinese companies
which tend to produce amazing technological achievements in
prototype form to show to their corporate customers which then
become tinny bits of junk with all corners cut to save money when
put into production (see made-in-China versions of Sony VCRs which
Sony tells you to they will swap out or you can throw away if they
ever go wrong)

Keep on dreaming your dreamy dreams.

It is not clear whether you know what you are talking about with this
comment: My statement came from an American who spends most of his
time living in China where he has to deal with this attitude on what
I mentioned were OTHER Chinese companies.

I know what I am talking about. My vague general statement refers to
the quality of Chinese produced products compared to a Japanese company
such as Sony. The Chinese are not up to that quality level but I have
no doubt that with the investment American companies have made in China
it will not be long before they will be up to that same level. Maybe in
a few more years.

Or is your point that you don't agree that Degen aren't one of these
companies and DO produce junk? Not sure anyone around here agrees
with you on this controversial point?

From comments on the news group, Internet research, and my direct
experience with Chinese made products the Chinese are not up to the
quality level the majority of Japanese companies have attained.

Cato responds - I remember as a kid back in the 50's & 60's that if
anyone mentioned that something was "Made in Japan", the immediate
thought that came to mind was it was cheaply made junk of the very
lowest quality. "Made in Japan" had that junk reputation, because for
the first couple of decades after WW II, that's what the Japanese were
known for making. Lots of cheaply made very poor quality goods to sell
to us westerners in the U.S., Canada, and Europe. Especially lots of
cheap plastic stuff. Even the plastic was the lowest quality plastic.
North America was flooded with the stuff. You saw it everywhere you
went. "Made in Japan!!! No wonder it isn't any good! What did you
expect huh?" sound's very familiar. Cheaply made little transistor
pockedt radios. cheaply made plastic toys, cheap motor cycles and
thousands of other items.
Foir a number of years the label "Made in Taiwan" had the same
reputation. Maybe it still does with some people.
But it wasn't that many years, into the 70's and 80's, before
everyone wanted a Sony Walkman cassette player, followed by the Walkman
CD player, and Sony T.V.'s. Other Japanese companys, like Hitachi
started to make some good stuff. Honda started to make a not bad
motorcycle, Honda's first cars rusted out like crazy and fell apart.
But look at them today. Much improved, and they've really hurt G.M. &
Ford plants in the U.S. and Canada haven't they? Along with the other
foreign companys that have taken U.S. and Canadian business. I suppose
the same has happened in Europe, but I am most familiar with how all
these imports have hurt the traditional automotive companys in the U.S.
and Canada. Adapting to these changes is very painful for a great many
North Americans.
I worked for G.M. of Canada Ltd. for more than thirty years, and
saw how this was effecting the North American auto industry first hand.
I just couldn't understand why Americans and Canadians where buying
foreign cars built in Japan, Korea, and elsewhere. I expected them to
buy G.M., Ford, and Chrysler to support our American and Canadian auto
industry here at home.
Ane then Honda, Toyota, and others started building plants in
North America!!!

O.K., sorry, I've gotten off topic......
What you are starting to see, is that now some good stuff is
starting to come out of China, and people don't want to believe it.
That's understandable.
Same thing happened before when Japan started to produce some
good stuff, and then Taiwan, and a few others, including South Korea.
And history just keeps repeating! But times change.

I don't think the Degen's are junk but at the same time many have
raised quality issues in the news group with Degen radios.

Hopefully Degen will one day produce a high quality radio.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article .com,
"Cato" wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"news.rcn.com" news.rnc.com wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

The whole problem is that people in the know have started to refer
to Gegen as an innovative company which produces BETTER radios
than Sony, especially after a bit of development. A company
which goes against the grain of development of Chinese companies
which tend to produce amazing technological achievements in
prototype form to show to their corporate customers which then
become tinny bits of junk with all corners cut to save money when
put into production (see made-in-China versions of Sony VCRs which
Sony tells you to they will swap out or you can throw away if they
ever go wrong)

Keep on dreaming your dreamy dreams.

It is not clear whether you know what you are talking about with this
comment: My statement came from an American who spends most of his
time living in China where he has to deal with this attitude on what
I mentioned were OTHER Chinese companies.

I know what I am talking about. My vague general statement refers to
the quality of Chinese produced products compared to a Japanese company
such as Sony. The Chinese are not up to that quality level but I have
no doubt that with the investment American companies have made in China
it will not be long before they will be up to that same level. Maybe in
a few more years.

Or is your point that you don't agree that Degen aren't one of these
companies and DO produce junk? Not sure anyone around here agrees
with you on this controversial point?

From comments on the news group, Internet research, and my direct
experience with Chinese made products the Chinese are not up to the
quality level the majority of Japanese companies have attained.

Cato responds - I remember as a kid back in the 50's & 60's that if
anyone mentioned that something was "Made in Japan", the immediate
thought that came to mind was it was cheaply made junk of the very
lowest quality. "Made in Japan" had that junk reputation, because for
the first couple of decades after WW II, that's what the Japanese were
known for making. Lots of cheaply made very poor quality goods to sell
to us westerners in the U.S., Canada, and Europe. Especially lots of
cheap plastic stuff. Even the plastic was the lowest quality plastic.
North America was flooded with the stuff. You saw it everywhere you
went. "Made in Japan!!! No wonder it isn't any good! What did you
expect huh?" sound's very familiar. Cheaply made little transistor
pockedt radios. cheaply made plastic toys, cheap motor cycles and
thousands of other items.
Foir a number of years the label "Made in Taiwan" had the same
reputation. Maybe it still does with some people.
But it wasn't that many years, into the 70's and 80's, before
everyone wanted a Sony Walkman cassette player, followed by the Walkman
CD player, and Sony T.V.'s. Other Japanese companys, like Hitachi
started to make some good stuff. Honda started to make a not bad
motorcycle, Honda's first cars rusted out like crazy and fell apart.
But look at them today. Much improved, and they've really hurt G.M. &
Ford plants in the U.S. and Canada haven't they? Along with the other
foreign companys that have taken U.S. and Canadian business. I suppose
the same has happened in Europe, but I am most familiar with how all
these imports have hurt the traditional automotive companys in the U.S.
and Canada. Adapting to these changes is very painful for a great many
North Americans.
I worked for G.M. of Canada Ltd. for more than thirty years, and
saw how this was effecting the North American auto industry first hand.
I just couldn't understand why Americans and Canadians where buying
foreign cars built in Japan, Korea, and elsewhere. I expected them to
buy G.M., Ford, and Chrysler to support our American and Canadian auto
industry here at home.
Ane then Honda, Toyota, and others started building plants in
North America!!!

O.K., sorry, I've gotten off topic......
What you are starting to see, is that now some good stuff is
starting to come out of China, and people don't want to believe it.
That's understandable.
Same thing happened before when Japan started to produce some
good stuff, and then Taiwan, and a few others, including South Korea.
And history just keeps repeating! But times change.

I don't think the Degen's are junk but at the same time many have
raised quality issues in the news group with Degen radios.

Hopefully Degen will one day produce a high quality radio.

I don't know what that "good stuff" is coming out of China. The made in
China products are low quality in general. Take for example the
electronic calipers I bought a few weeks ago that is a knockoff of a
Mitutoyo unit. The design is solid being a knockoff and it worked out of
the box but was kind of sticky to operate. Taking a closer look in the
external nooks and crannies revealed dirt and grit. I figured if the
external surfaces looked this way the insides must be worse so I took it
apart and it looked like a disaster inside chock full of metal dust and
grit. I carefully cleaned the interior (and exterior), reassembled the
unit and it works smoothly now. Basically even if they knockoff a good
design the execution is crude. The internal parts were crudely made and
had nicks, scratches, machining errors but you would not see that unless
you took it apart. The exterior looked fine until you took a closer look
at it.

I have come across electronic products using wall wart power supplies
made in China that were supposed to be UL approved and they were not
compliant. The design would not make the safety standards and would also
fail EMI/RFI standards. I have no idea how they are getting away with
selling this stuff in the USA.

Complaints about radios made in China indicate that once again the
environment the units were assembled in are not clean. Switches on the
radios would start to fail in a short period of time. This indicates
contaminants in the switch assemblies. The radios would malfunction in
high humidity conditions. This indicates poor cleaning of circuit boards
of ionic solder fluxes used in assembly. The operating design of the
radios have some odd quirks but that might be a cultural thing.

China has a ways to go before they come up to the consumer standards we
get from Taiwan and Japan. I do expect that they will get there but it
will take a few more years of improvements.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article telamon_spamshield-C80459.22324615122006
@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com,
lid says...
In article .com,
"Cato" wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"news.rcn.com" news.rnc.com wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

The whole problem is that people in the know have started to refer
to Gegen as an innovative company which produces BETTER radios
than Sony, especially after a bit of development. A company
which goes against the grain of development of Chinese companies
which tend to produce amazing technological achievements in
prototype form to show to their corporate customers which then
become tinny bits of junk with all corners cut to save money when
put into production (see made-in-China versions of Sony VCRs which
Sony tells you to they will swap out or you can throw away if they
ever go wrong)

Keep on dreaming your dreamy dreams.

It is not clear whether you know what you are talking about with this
comment: My statement came from an American who spends most of his
time living in China where he has to deal with this attitude on what
I mentioned were OTHER Chinese companies.

I know what I am talking about. My vague general statement refers to
the quality of Chinese produced products compared to a Japanese company
such as Sony. The Chinese are not up to that quality level but I have
no doubt that with the investment American companies have made in China
it will not be long before they will be up to that same level. Maybe in
a few more years.

Or is your point that you don't agree that Degen aren't one of these
companies and DO produce junk? Not sure anyone around here agrees
with you on this controversial point?

From comments on the news group, Internet research, and my direct
experience with Chinese made products the Chinese are not up to the
quality level the majority of Japanese companies have attained.

Cato responds - I remember as a kid back in the 50's & 60's that if
anyone mentioned that something was "Made in Japan", the immediate
thought that came to mind was it was cheaply made junk of the very
lowest quality. "Made in Japan" had that junk reputation, because for
the first couple of decades after WW II, that's what the Japanese were
known for making. Lots of cheaply made very poor quality goods to sell
to us westerners in the U.S., Canada, and Europe. Especially lots of
cheap plastic stuff. Even the plastic was the lowest quality plastic.
North America was flooded with the stuff. You saw it everywhere you
went. "Made in Japan!!! No wonder it isn't any good! What did you
expect huh?" sound's very familiar. Cheaply made little transistor
pockedt radios. cheaply made plastic toys, cheap motor cycles and
thousands of other items.
Foir a number of years the label "Made in Taiwan" had the same
reputation. Maybe it still does with some people.
But it wasn't that many years, into the 70's and 80's, before
everyone wanted a Sony Walkman cassette player, followed by the Walkman
CD player, and Sony T.V.'s. Other Japanese companys, like Hitachi
started to make some good stuff. Honda started to make a not bad
motorcycle, Honda's first cars rusted out like crazy and fell apart.
But look at them today. Much improved, and they've really hurt G.M. &
Ford plants in the U.S. and Canada haven't they? Along with the other
foreign companys that have taken U.S. and Canadian business. I suppose
the same has happened in Europe, but I am most familiar with how all
these imports have hurt the traditional automotive companys in the U.S.
and Canada. Adapting to these changes is very painful for a great many
North Americans.
I worked for G.M. of Canada Ltd. for more than thirty years, and
saw how this was effecting the North American auto industry first hand.
I just couldn't understand why Americans and Canadians where buying
foreign cars built in Japan, Korea, and elsewhere. I expected them to
buy G.M., Ford, and Chrysler to support our American and Canadian auto
industry here at home.
Ane then Honda, Toyota, and others started building plants in
North America!!!

O.K., sorry, I've gotten off topic......
What you are starting to see, is that now some good stuff is
starting to come out of China, and people don't want to believe it.
That's understandable.
Same thing happened before when Japan started to produce some
good stuff, and then Taiwan, and a few others, including South Korea.
And history just keeps repeating! But times change.

I don't think the Degen's are junk but at the same time many have
raised quality issues in the news group with Degen radios.

Hopefully Degen will one day produce a high quality radio.

I don't know what that "good stuff" is coming out of China. The made in
China products are low quality in general. Take for example the
electronic calipers I bought a few weeks ago that is a knockoff of a
Mitutoyo unit. The design is solid being a knockoff and it worked out of
the box but was kind of sticky to operate. Taking a closer look in the
external nooks and crannies revealed dirt and grit. I figured if the
external surfaces looked this way the insides must be worse so I took it
apart and it looked like a disaster inside chock full of metal dust and
grit. I carefully cleaned the interior (and exterior), reassembled the
unit and it works smoothly now. Basically even if they knockoff a good
design the execution is crude. The internal parts were crudely made and
had nicks, scratches, machining errors but you would not see that unless
you took it apart. The exterior looked fine until you took a closer look
at it.

I have come across electronic products using wall wart power supplies
made in China that were supposed to be UL approved and they were not
compliant. The design would not make the safety standards and would also
fail EMI/RFI standards. I have no idea how they are getting away with
selling this stuff in the USA.

Complaints about radios made in China indicate that once again the
environment the units were assembled in are not clean. Switches on the
radios would start to fail in a short period of time. This indicates
contaminants in the switch assemblies. The radios would malfunction in
high humidity conditions. This indicates poor cleaning of circuit boards
of ionic solder fluxes used in assembly. The operating design of the
radios have some odd quirks but that might be a cultural thing.

China has a ways to go before they come up to the consumer standards we
get from Taiwan and Japan. I do expect that they will get there but it
will take a few more years of improvements.



I have seen some pretty decently assembled scanners and other
electronics from China lately. I looked inside the last handheld scanner
I bought, and it looked identical in build quality to the earlier Japan
made model. It's held up very well, in daily use for over 3 years. All
of the major brand model trains made in China today are done very well.
Not quite as smooth as the Kato Japan made ones, but they look about as
good, paint wise, and are very reasonably priced.


BDK

I have an electronic calipers.I don't remember if it is a Mitutoyo brand
name because I haven't used them in years.I don't doubt if the battery
needs to be replaced.
cuhulin

Model Trains?
www.devilfinder.com Metrocenter Station

Click on where it says,Jackson Society of Model Engineers.
cuhulin

news.rcn.com wrote:

wrote in message
I know what Degen is.

Well that is a relief: I thought for a moment you were a troll for making a
statement about this in a thread where everyone else seems to know what they
are talking about !



He was referring to your posting earlier, which said:

==========================================
The whole problem is that people in the know have started to refer to
Gegen as an innovative company which produces BETTER radios than Sony,
especially after a bit of development.
==========================================

When you said 'Gegen', he was naturally curious as to the brand name.





mike