On Feb 13, 4:32�pm, "David G. Nagel" wrote:
james wrote:
On 13 Feb 2007 10:38:16 -0800, "wavetrapper" wrote:

+++Having observed issues and changes in recent years, I think the
+++question that has to be asked at some point is whether or not the ARRL
+++should continue to attempt to influence rules, laws, etc. *The money
+++that they have to be spending on legal efforts, lobbying, etc has got
+++to be significant. *I think any objective observer would conclude that
+++their ability to influence legislation, FCC rules, etc in recent years
+++has been pretty dismal. *Earlier in their history, the ARRL had the
+++ability to do this. *Times change. *In today's world, the Imperial FCC
+++chooses to do what it wants to do, selectively uses public comments
+++that support their pre-determined outcomes, fails to enforce its own
+++rules and is happy ignore factual data or public sentiment in the
+++process. *Resources may be better spent in providing new and different
+++services to members rather than flush it down the commode under the
+++banner of "fighting city hall."
+++
+++Russ
+++K3Pi
***********
The FCC does as Congress dictates. Remember COngress holds the purse
strings for the FCC as well as the power to remove and appoint
commisioners. The FCC is an extension of Congress.

james

Sorry James;

Congress does hold the purse strings as well as the abililty to enact
laws which the FCC has to enforce. The President appoints commissioners
and the Senate confirms the appointment. The President can request the
resignation of any official in government but can only fire a few.

Dave N

The FCC has released its latest operating budget listing over
its web page. Anyone who cares to can go check it out.

The ARRL never reveals its budget plans to the public,
despite all its Believers' claims that it is handled in a
"democratic fashion" AS IF it were an arm of the guvmint.
The best one can hope for is someone else getting copies
of its IRS Returns and publicizes those. Otherwise we
"common folk" would never know its a multi-million dollar
"non-profit" organization.

LA

wrote:

The ARRL never reveals its budget plans to the public,
despite all its Believers' claims that it is handled in a
"democratic fashion" AS IF it were an arm of the guvmint.
The best one can hope for is someone else getting copies
of its IRS Returns and publicizes those. Otherwise we
"common folk" would never know its a multi-million dollar
"non-profit" organization.

LA

OK, no problem, assume everything you say is true.

1) Is that bad? Is it any different than the NRA or any other hobby
organization?

2) What alternative to the ARRL do you suggest?

On Feb 13, 10:49 pm, Carter-k8vt wrote:
wrote:
The ARRL never reveals its budget plans to the public,
despite all its Believers' claims that it is handled in a
"democratic fashion" AS IF it were an arm of the guvmint.
The best one can hope for is someone else getting copies
of its IRS Returns and publicizes those. Otherwise we
"common folk" would never know its a multi-million dollar
"non-profit" organization.

LA

OK, no problem, assume everything you say is true.

1) Is that bad? Is it any different than the NRA or any other hobby
organization?

good bad not the issue

the ARRL's suportor insist that is not the way it it is with the ARRL

2) What alternative to the ARRL do you suggest?

On Feb 13, 7:49�pm, Carter-k8vt wrote:
wrote:
* *The ARRL never reveals its budget plans to the public,
* *despite all its Believers' claims that it is handled in a
* *"democratic fashion" AS IF it were an arm of the guvmint.
* *The best one can hope for is someone else getting copies
* *of its IRS Returns and publicizes those. *Otherwise we
* *"common folk" would never know its a multi-million dollar
* *"non-profit" organization.

* *LA

OK, no problem, assume everything you say is true.

There WAS a website (webmaster is a ham) that DID
post ARRL IRS returns. I footnoted that in one of my
Comments to the FCC. Have to look it up on the CD
holding those documents but anyone can access it if
it is still up and running.

1) Is that bad? Is it any different than the NRA or any other hobby
organization?

The National Recovery Act is still going on?!? :-)

2) What alternative to the ARRL do you suggest?

"Alternative?" You want an instant alternative?

The ARRL was incorporated in 1914. That's 83 years
ago. The league was able to squash its competition
in the ancient days by good PR work. I admire them
for their chutzpah in that.

From my observation the ARRL just got to believing
its own "sins of omissions of the truth" that it lost
sight of its original aims (other than being a local
telegraph service hacker)...then got the inner circle
of its staff to think they were all there through some
odd "divine right." It is only a fraternal order and a
publisher.

Ain't no equivalent national organization in the USA
now that could compete on equal terms with them.
However, that is NO reason (logically) for them to
think they are Top Dog just because they don't have
the competition. Its Believers do, but then they have
drifted off the mainstream into an emotional attachment
to fraternalistic orders.

wrote:
On Feb 13, 7:49�pm, Carter-k8vt wrote:
wrote:
� �The ARRL never reveals its budget plans to the public,
� �despite all its Believers' claims that it is handled in a
� �"democratic fashion" AS IF it were an arm of the guvmint.
� �The best one can hope for is someone else getting copies
� �of its IRS Returns and publicizes those. �Otherwise we
� �"common folk" would never know its a multi-million dollar
� �"non-profit" organization.
� �LA
OK, no problem, assume everything you say is true.

There WAS a website (webmaster is a ham) that DID
post ARRL IRS returns. I footnoted that in one of my
Comments to the FCC. Have to look it up on the CD
holding those documents but anyone can access it if
it is still up and running.

1) Is that bad? Is it any different than the NRA or any other hobby
organization?

The National Recovery Act is still going on?!? :-)

2) What alternative to the ARRL do you suggest?

"Alternative?" You want an instant alternative?

The ARRL was incorporated in 1914. That's 83 years
ago. The league was able to squash its competition
in the ancient days by good PR work. I admire them
for their chutzpah in that.

From my observation the ARRL just got to believing
its own "sins of omissions of the truth" that it lost
sight of its original aims (other than being a local
telegraph service hacker)...then got the inner circle
of its staff to think they were all there through some
odd "divine right." It is only a fraternal order and a
publisher.

Ain't no equivalent national organization in the USA
now that could compete on equal terms with them.
However, that is NO reason (logically) for them to
think they are Top Dog just because they don't have
the competition. Its Believers do, but then they have
drifted off the mainstream into an emotional attachment
to fraternalistic orders.




Lee, thanks for the explanation...although as a pragmatist, the ARRL,
for better or worse, IS the only game in town. They are certainly not
perfect, but then, who of us are?

As to their "non-profit" status, whatever that means, I am not sure what
problem you see with that (if any).

I did some research and, as you say, their IRS returns are on the web.
Additionally, their *AUDITED* Annual Report is on the ARRL web site for
the world to see. Granted, since Enron, audits aren't all they were
cracked up to be, but that is a national issue, nothing unique to the ARRL.

Carter-k8vt wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 13, 7:49�pm, Carter-k8vt wrote:
wrote:
� �The ARRL never reveals its budget plans to the public,
� �despite all its Believers' claims that it is handled in a
� �"democratic fashion" AS IF it were an arm of the guvmint.
� �The best one can hope for is someone else getting copies
� �of its IRS Returns and publicizes those. �Otherwise we
� �"common folk" would never know its a multi-million dollar
� �"non-profit" organization.
� �LA
OK, no problem, assume everything you say is true.

There WAS a website (webmaster is a ham) that DID
post ARRL IRS returns. I footnoted that in one of my
Comments to the FCC. Have to look it up on the CD
holding those documents but anyone can access it if
it is still up and running.

1) Is that bad? Is it any different than the NRA or any other hobby
organization?

The National Recovery Act is still going on?!? :-)

2) What alternative to the ARRL do you suggest?

"Alternative?" You want an instant alternative?

The ARRL was incorporated in 1914. That's 83 years
ago. The league was able to squash its competition
in the ancient days by good PR work. I admire them
for their chutzpah in that.

From my observation the ARRL just got to believing
its own "sins of omissions of the truth" that it lost
sight of its original aims (other than being a local
telegraph service hacker)...then got the inner circle
of its staff to think they were all there through some
odd "divine right." It is only a fraternal order and a
publisher.

Ain't no equivalent national organization in the USA
now that could compete on equal terms with them.
However, that is NO reason (logically) for them to
think they are Top Dog just because they don't have
the competition. Its Believers do, but then they have
drifted off the mainstream into an emotional attachment
to fraternalistic orders.




Lee, thanks for the explanation...although as a pragmatist, the ARRL,
for better or worse, IS the only game in town. They are certainly not
perfect, but then, who of us are?

As to their "non-profit" status, whatever that means, I am not sure what
problem you see with that (if any).

I did some research and, as you say, their IRS returns are on the web.
Additionally, their *AUDITED* Annual Report is on the ARRL web site for
the world to see. Granted, since Enron, audits aren't all they were
cracked up to be, but that is a national issue, nothing unique to the ARRL.
Oooops, pardon the fumble fingers. That should be "Len"...

On Feb 14, 12:09�pm, Carter-k8vt wrote:
Carter-k8vt wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 13, 7:49?pm, Carter-k8vt wrote:
wrote:
? ?The ARRL never reveals its budget plans to the public,
? ?despite all its Believers' claims that it is handled in a
? ?"democratic fashion" AS IF it were an arm of the guvmint.
? ?The best one can hope for is someone else getting copies
? ?of its IRS Returns and publicizes those. ?Otherwise we
? ?"common folk" would never know its a multi-million dollar
? ?"non-profit" organization.
? ?LA
OK, no problem, assume everything you say is true.

* *There WAS a website (webmaster is a ham) that DID
* *post ARRL IRS returns. *I footnoted that in one of my
* *Comments to the FCC. *Have to look it up on the CD
* *holding those documents but anyone can access it if
* *it is still up and running.

1) Is that bad? Is it any different than the NRA or any other hobby
organization?

* *The National Recovery Act is still going on?!? * :-)

2) What alternative to the ARRL do you suggest?

* *"Alternative?" *You want an instant alternative?

* *The ARRL was incorporated in 1914. *That's 83 years
* *ago. *The league was able to squash its competition
* *in the ancient days by good PR work. *I admire them
* *for their chutzpah in that.

* *From my observation the ARRL just got to believing
* *its own "sins of omissions of the truth" that it lost
* *sight of its original aims (other than being a local
* *telegraph service hacker)...then got the inner circle
* *of its staff to think they were all there through some
* *odd "divine right." *It is only a fraternal order and a
* *publisher.

* *Ain't no equivalent national organization in the USA
* *now that could compete on equal terms with them.
* *However, that is NO reason (logically) for them to
* *think they are Top Dog just because they don't have
* *the competition. *Its Believers do, but then they have
* *drifted off the mainstream into an emotional attachment
* *to fraternalistic orders.

*

Lee, thanks for the explanation...although as a pragmatist, the ARRL,
for better or worse, IS the only game in town. They are certainly not
perfect, but then, who of us are?

As to their "non-profit" status, whatever that means, I am not sure what
problem you see with that (if any).

I was referring to what some (in the past) used to imply about
their altruism. :-)

Way back I used to kid some members about the ARRL
website needing extra money for shipping charges of
purchases. The example given was going into an HRO and
being able to buy a League book and NOT pay shipping
charges...and the HRO still made a profit on that sale.
Yet the price on the ARRL website was the same AND
one had to pay extra for shipping charges. :-)

That was quickly transformed by the Zealot Believers
into some dastardly "attack" on the League by myself.
Gotta love the way some act when their ox is gored.


I did some research and, as you say, their IRS returns are on the web.
Additionally, their *AUDITED* Annual Report is on the ARRL web site for
the world to see. Granted, since Enron, audits aren't all they were
cracked up to be, but that is a national issue, nothing unique to the ARRL.

Oooops, pardon the fumble fingers. That should be "Len"

Roger that, no problem on that here... :-)

LA