Outside the 10 mv/m Contour the "HD" Radio {IBOC} Broadcasting Scheme is BROKEN !
 

"RHF" wrote in message
oups.com...
-cause- Outside the 10 mv/m Contour the "HD" Radio
Broadcasting Scheme is BROKEN ! -Big Time-

The listening to most metro area radio stations outside the 10 mv/m contour
is nearly zero, anyway. So there is no loss.

The Art {Hooby} Of AM/MW Radio DXing Is Obsolete Due To Technological Advancement -ie- IBOC Broadcasting
 

"RHF" wrote in message
ups.com...

- - - and the Art {Hobby} of AM/MW Radio DXing
is Obsolite due to Technological Advancement
-ie- IBOC Broadcasting.

Considering that the total membership in AM DX clubs over the last decade is
less than 1000 persons, I think the whole point is moot.

AM/MW "HD" Radio -Nightime- IBOC Is Here Almost . . .
 

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. net...

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

Based on actually working with 40 or so HD stations, the current HD
signal, on AM, covers to at least the same usable and used coverage
area
the analog signal reaches, sometimes more. On FM, it also reaches the
same
area where nearly all actual listening happens.

There you go again saying that only those inside your precious city
grade
contours count as listeners. Probably 40-50 million people in the US
would
beg to differ.

Ignore the Troll.

You again? Facts on real radio listening seem to confuse you. Your vision
of how broadcasting works, and has worked in the US for nearly a century
is at total odds with reality.

It's called BROADcasting. It's not NARROW casting for ONLY those fortunate
enough to live within a 10dB city contour. It's a PUBLIC SERVICE, IN THE
PUBLIC INTEREST. NOT STRICTLY A BOTTOM LINE ISSUE.

Broadcast Radio Industry Insiders Reveal : HD Radio's Dirty Little Secret
 

On Jun 22, 3:47 am, wrote:
On Jun 22, 12:04 am, "David Eduardo" wrote:





"RHF" wrote in message

oups.com...

Phasing in and Increase of the Digital Signal over
Time would ease the Transition toHD Radio.
First Year 1% Digital
Second Year 2% Digital
Third Year 4% Digital
Fourth Year 8% Digital
Fifth Year 16% Digital
A 16% Digital Signal should give aHD Radio
Station a Signal Coverage Area far better then
their present Analog Signal Coverage Area.

Based on actually working with 40 or so HD stations, the current HD signal,
on AM, covers to at least the same usable and used coverage area the analog
signal reaches, sometimes more. On FM, it also reaches the same area where
nearly all actual listening happens.


- "HD Radio's Dirty Little Secret"
-
- "Nope, the dirty little secret is that HD Radio's coverage
- is far less than regular analog radio.
-
- About 60% of analog radio's reach even."
-
- http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/hd...le-secret.html

ibocisacr - Good Info and Link.

"HD Radio's Dirty Little Secret"

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/hd...e-secret.html-
Hide quoted

QUOTE - "This is really very discouraging and is leading us to wonder
why we should bother to promote HD. To do so will only disappoint,
and, perhaps, antagonize a significant segment of the audience who
finds that the system doesn't deliver."

- - - i would agree -and- my ears don't lie ~ RHF

"DE" - yes, Yes. YES ! - DXers Know - We Don't Count In The Grand Scheme of HD Radio
 

On Jun 22, 7:27 pm, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"RHF" wrote in message

ups.com...



- - - and the Art {Hobby} of AM/MW Radio DXing
is Obsolite due to Technological Advancement
-ie- IBOC Broadcasting.


- Considering that the total membership in AM DX clubs
- over the last decade is less than 1000 persons,
- I think the whole point is moot.

Once Again "DE" - yes, Yes. YES ! - DXers Know
- We Don't Count In The Grand Scheme of HD Radio

But Think Of This DE : DXer's are a 'minority' -but-
Then in your Quantified {and Qualified} Business
World - DXers are a 'minority' that does not Count
- All the while your Personal Business Life has been
based on Serving a "Minority" of Radio Listeners.

-interesting- such hypocrisy ~ RHF

AM/MW "HD" Radio -Nightime- IBOC Is Here Almost . . .
 

On Jun 22, 7:24 pm, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"Telamon" wrote in message

...



Based on actually working with 40 or so HD stations, the current HD
signal, on AM, covers to at least the same usable and used coverage
area
the analog signal reaches, sometimes more. On FM, it also reaches the
same
area where nearly all actual listening happens.

There you go again saying that only those inside your precious city grade
contours count as listeners. Probably 40-50 million people in the US
would
beg to differ.

Ignore the Troll.

You again? Facts on real radio listening seem to confuse you. Your vision of
how broadcasting works, and has worked in the US for nearly a century is at
total odds with reality.

DE - Then 'your' Broadcast Radio Reality Sucks [.] ~ RHF

The Art {Hooby} Of AM/MW Radio DXing Is Obsolete Due To Technological Advancement -ie- IBOC Broadcasting
 

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
t...

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. net...

"RHF" wrote in message
ups.com...

- - - and the Art {Hobby} of AM/MW Radio DXing
is Obsolite due to Technological Advancement
-ie- IBOC Broadcasting.

Considering that the total membership in AM DX clubs over the last
decade is less than 1000 persons, I think the whole point is moot.


Most DX'ers don't BELONG to clubs. Most of us sit in our own homes or
cars and listen to distant stations for fun, or, simply listen to a
station we're not supposed to (out of your precious contours) because we
LIKE it. It may come as a suprise to you, but most dog owners don't
belong to the AKC, either.


Actually, it's the dogs themselves that the AKC registers.

In any case, the reality of your argument is simple; "I don't care if AM
radio dies as long as I can listen a while more to stations that were not
even licensed to serve me."

Again, stations are licensed to serve the PUBLIC. I am part of the PUBLIC,
as are all those millions of others that you so easily dismiss. Or does the
term 'freedom of choice' not mean anything to you? (not that we have much of
that anymore, what with Clear Channel, Entercom, etc. running cloned formats
coast to coast). What you're saying is that people outside your precious
contours have no choice what they can and cannot listen to. If they have
only one station in their town (there are a LOT of such places, believe me),
or, worse yet, none at all, they are just **** out of luck. Sorry, I ain't
ever going to buy into that malarky. When I was growing up, I had to listen
to stations perhaps 150 miles or more away if I didn't want to listen to the
farm report or the swap meet of the air or other equally lame (to me, as a
teen) programming.

I know I'm just banging my head against the wall here, because you will
never see the other side of this issue (and yes, I do see the business side
of the issue), but dammit, PEOPLE have to be more important than the
almighty dollar, or the entire business ideal is doomed to eventual failure.
You serve the PEOPLE. That's the way it's supposed to work. The PUBLIC
first.. the advertisers second. If you don't serve the public, the
advertisers will eventually go elsewhere because they'll be advertising to
nobody.

The Art {Hooby} Of AM/MW Radio DXing Is Obsolete Due To TechnologicalAdvancement -ie- IBOC Broadcasting
 

RHF wrote:


- Show quoted text -

DE - yes, Yes. YES - We Know - We Don't Count ~ RHF

- - - and the Art {Hobby} of AM/MW Radio DXing
is Obsolite due to Technological Advancement
-ie- IBOC Broadcasting.


We haven't counted since long before IBOC. Truth is, Radio has been
disregarding us for decades. At least by degrees. Now, they don't even
hear our voice.

David isn't the one who makes these policies, or decides which
numbers are to be excluded, he's only telling you what the reality is in
the Radio biz. It sucks. And I"m not saying that it's right. Or even
that it needs to be that way. Everything that you, and Ace, and Brenda
Ann have said are legitimate concerns from the listener's perspective.
I'm right there with you.

But the industry just doesn't care. They don't have to. They churn
out their sausages, their sausages sell. They take their money and go
buy expensive toys. They don't care.

They don't have to.

And like the ever declining level of customer service in every line
of business, these days, this thinking is so commonplace and so
prevalent, that the public has simply come to accept it as the norm. In
some cases, they even accept it as the right way.

Look at Microsoft. And the huge number of people who will defend them
and their contemptuous business practices to the last drop of their own
blood. They don't care. They're simply too big to need to. So, people
who have had it, exit the Microsoft world for Linux. Or Solaris. Or
FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and in some cases, UNIX itself. Or the blossoming Mac
world. And like Microsoft, Radio is seeing an ever increasing number of
dissatisfied listeners who exit to their iPods. Or CD players. Or
satellite radio. I put a Peripheral iPod Interface in my car. I may go
two, three weeks without tuning in. I have one colleague who took the
radio out of his Highlander entirely. We don't listen to the radio when
we go to hamfests. He's the one who took my job, when I left CBS.

And we are not alone in our circles.

It's only dinosaurs like us who understand the shortsightedness of
the thinking, and the waste of potential that radio reflects, today, and
the hazards of limiting communications availability and choice, that
care anymore. It's only dinosaurs like us who understand the
shortsightedness of putting all of it in the hands of one single company
who can make decisions about the entire communications business,
exclusively toward profit, with only token resistance from the stewards
of the public trust that care the primary focus of the broadcasting
companies, today is their stock price. Nothing else is as important.

And we are in short supply.

The business has done its research. And is convinced that what it's
doing is the only way. Now, the reality of this research is that
questionaires can be designed to produce exactly the desired outcome. I
was involved in this kind of directed research at CBS. And I've been
involved in focus group sessions that were also subtly directed to a
desired outcome. And for a time, they worked. And the station flourished
despite the chicanery. But then, again, we didn't have a head-on
competitor. When one came along, the shortcomings of the research were
apparent in the extreme, and they kicked the **** out of us with minimum
wage disc jockeys and the lamest promotion department in the business.
But they did what we wouldn't, and the listeners migrated in droves.

They didn't last. Mel Karmazin opened up the treasury and we simply
outspent them. And locked up every venue in the region for live
concerts. And locked up demographic specific sponsors into exclusivity.
Like Survivor, we outspent, out played and out lasted them. And when
they were gone, only we remained. Haggard, and battle worn, but
literally, within minutes of the announcement that they had spun the
Wheel, we were back to our old ways. The corner office didn't care.

It didn't have to.

And most stations, today, are positioned so they don't have to face a
head-on competitor.

They can make just as much money doing things the way it's doing them
as they can doing things the way that would include us in the service
commitment. It's just less expensive and more risky to do things our
way. And every analyst on Wall Street will tell you stockholders don't
like risk, or expense.

And no advertiser wants to roll the dice with their money on content
that may be contrary to its interest. As Howard Stern learned, again,
this past week on Sirius.

The hard pill to swallow, here, is that Radio, in the US, has always
been about the money. Always. Since the first grain elevator operators
built amateur licensed transmitters to report their market prices,
programming has only been there to hold listener attention between
commercial messages. The public service commitment written into the
rules came late. And from the outset was seen as an unfair burden to
broadcasters who could make much more money without it. Today, the
public service commitment is barely a token, and Radio is STILL
listening to the advertisers...the ones with the money. And everything
you hear on the radio is geared to that end. If public service could be
made profitable, things would change. But it's not. And in that light,
yes, Roy, we don't count.

It's not right. But it is reality.

They don't care. They don't have to.

The Art {Hooby} Of AM/MW Radio DXing Is Obsolete Due To Technological Advancement -ie- IBOC Broadcasting
 

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...
..

In any case, the reality of your argument is simple; "I don't care if AM
radio dies as long as I can listen a while more to stations that were not
even licensed to serve me."

Again, stations are licensed to serve the PUBLIC. I am part of the PUBLIC,
as are all those millions of others that you so easily dismiss.

Even back when stations had a more defined service "obligation" as part of
the terms of their license, the FCC was very specific about equating
"service" with "community of license" and required service only to the city
of license, and, at the licensee´s option, surrounding communities within
the primary coontours.

In fact, the rules are rather specific for both AM and FM as to what signal
contours are protected from interference on the same and adjacent channels.
Fringe area reception is guaranteed neither to the station nor to the
listener.

The public, for example, for an FM is that within the 54 dbu coverage area.
There is no granted right for the station or the listener to be able to hear
the station outside that area. And there is no requirement of the licensee
to serve any audience even that far out, signal wise. Never has been, and
you are trying to make a case based on rare and unusual circumstances.

Or does the term 'freedom of choice' not mean anything to you? (not that
we have much of that anymore, what with Clear Channel, Entercom, etc.
running cloned formats coast to coast).

Actually, if you do some deeper inspection, you will find that neither of
these companies run cloned formats. While they may use the same name for
similar formats because of the amazingly difficult challenge of finding new
names (due to the Internet's effect on service mark rights), the fact that
there are many named "Kiss" or "Star" or "Majic" or "Power" does not mean
evey station with the same name has the same format, music or DJs.

As to formats being repeated nationally, you reallly don't think that there
wouldm't be a country, and AC, a rock, a CHR station in nearly every market?
And that they would play fairly similar music form city to city? In fact, 45
or 50 years ago, there were two or three Top 40 stations in every larger
market!

What you're saying is that people outside your precious contours have no
choice what they can and cannot listen to.

They have no expectation of hearing, consistently, any station beyond its
protected contour. And they never have. The fact that your lot is a bit
lower than your neighbor's lot and you have saved water by using their
run-off for years does not give you the right to expect that he can not put
a drain on his property at some point and capture that water. Same with
distant signals. There is no right or expectation under the law and FCC
rules that grants a right to DX specific stations without interference.

If they have only one station in their town (there are a LOT of such
places, believe me), or, worse yet, none at all, they are just **** out of
luck. Sorry, I ain't ever going to buy into that malarky. When I was
growing up, I had to listen to stations perhaps 150 miles or more away if
I didn't want to listen to the farm report or the swap meet of the air or
other equally lame (to me, as a teen) programming.

In another forum, I mentioned this story... which shows that the "when I was
growing up" thing is a fable and not relevant today.

In the 60's, the town of Omena, MI, in Leelanau county, population 60, could
get two Traverse City AMs in the daytime, and that with difficulty if there
were atmospherics. At night, there was no local reception, and one had to
depend on WJR, WLS, WBBM and WMAQ... the only consistently receivable
signals in the region. Unfortunately, for much of the year, Omena is in an
auroral region and reception could be blocked for days on end at night.

So, daytime, when most radio listening is done, there were two choices. At
night, there were four, none of which had any service to the local area.

Today, there are 3 AMs with a 5 mv/m day signal and one at night. Not a big
change there. But there are 7 FMs with a 70 dbu signal, 8 with a 60 to 69
dbu, and a half-dozen mure between 65 and 69 dbu. In other words, 15 easily
receivable, by day and night, FMs and a couple more with signals most radios
could get with a bit of effort.

So the idea that rural areas are unserved is bunk. I can repeat this story
for Dewey-Humboldt, AZ or Indio, CA or a thousand other rural communities
where AM reception in the 50's and 60's was bad, limited and subject to
interference by day, and limited to distant, irrelevant non-local stations
at night. Now, as in my example, here is a tiny, remote community that has
good signals from over a dozen FMs.

I know I'm just banging my head against the wall here, because you will
never see the other side of this issue (and yes, I do see the business
side of the issue), but dammit, PEOPLE have to be more important than the
almighty dollar, or the entire business ideal is doomed to eventual
failure. You serve the PEOPLE.

No, we do NOT. We serve the people, by the terms of our license, in the
communities around our city of licence. We have never had an obligation to
serve anyone outside our protected contours, and there has never, even in
the toughest regulatory days, a requirement to serve listeners in the weaker
protected contours... just in the immediate community.

That's the way it's supposed to work. The PUBLIC first.. the advertisers
second. If you don't serve the public, the advertisers will eventually go
elsewhere because they'll be advertising to nobody.

And how many advertisers today care if there are people listening beyond the
protected contours of a station? NONE is the answer. Without revenue, the
audience can not be served.

AM/MW "HD" Radio -Nightime- IBOC Is Here Almost . . .
 

David wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:18:10 -0700, "David Eduardo"
wrote:


First, we are talking about AM, which now has, nationally, only about 19%
of radio listening. Second, most of that percentage is in upper end demos,
as under age 45, listenership is very small.

What we have is a band that has serious issues about survival.

In big cities, small cities and rural areas, there is very little use of
AM outside the very strong signal contours.

In fact, the national coverage by FM is far more dense than the AM
coverage. If HD can help AM survive, it is a fair tradeoff.


You always speak in relative terms, not in real numbers. The audience
you are willing to throw away (while gaining nothing) are in the
millions. Kids aren't going to listen to Slant Head and the Pig Man
just because they're in stereo.


Where is your data to show that millions of listeners would be lost?
Apparently the stations already know the people you are talking about don't
listen to their stations. If they did, it would show in the survey data.