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HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article , wrote:
In article ffd0d3c9-18d9-4b7b-95dc- I think that echo you hear is the one that results from the terrestrial pulse you just heard, and not 1 or 2 back. My guess is that the leading edge of the reflected pulse arrives approx. 2.5 seconds after it leaves and the same for the trailing edge of the pulse. That means if you look at entire 5 second time line, at 0 seconds the earth pulse starts and at 2 seconds it ends. At 2.5 seconds the beginning part of the echo pulse arrives and at 4.5 seconds (2.5 seconds after the terrestrial pulse ended) the end of the echo pulse arrives. There is always 2.5 seconds between any reference point on the timeline of the sent pulse to the corresponding point on the timeline of the return pulse. One complete cycle of send/receive should be approximately 4.5 seconds. I think that is why they selected 5 seconds between sending 2 second pulses. At least that is the way I view it. I am open to other views. On the first transmission, (Jan 19, 05:00 UTC), I tried using an oscilloscope to see if I could see the echo. It was a 4 second cycle with 2 seconds on and 2 off. (Which made syncing the scope (with a 5 second sweep) a real pain. The next pulse was going when the first one ended, triggering it again). Anyway, with the narrowest (2 kHz) bandwidth on my old R-1000, it just didn't cut it. When the outgoing signal was S9+10 (in Seattle) I thought I might have heard an echo or two, but just couldn't be sure. What bandwidth were you successful listeners using? Mark Zenier Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com) |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 21, 9:51 am, Arne wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:35:37 GMT, (Mark Zenier) wrote: On the first transmission, (Jan 19, 05:00 UTC), I tried using an oscilloscope to see if I could see the echo. It was a 4 second cycle with 2 seconds on and 2 off. (Which made syncing the scope (with a 5 second sweep) a real pain. The next pulse was going when the first one ended, triggering it again). Anyway, with the narrowest (2 kHz) bandwidth on my old R-1000, it just didn't cut it. When the outgoing signal was S9+10 (in Seattle) I thought I might have heard an echo or two, but just couldn't be sure. What bandwidth were you successful listeners using? 2 kHz in USB mode on a NRD-535D tuned to 6792.0 kHz and 7407.0 kHz. The cycle (per the HAARP website) was 5 seconds. 2 seconds on, followed by 3 seconds off. Arne (AzUSA) It seems those that heard the reflected signal were in the south. I used a crystal CW filter. 250hz BW. My recollection is that is at -6dB, not -3dB. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 21, 9:51*am, Arne wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:35:37 GMT, (Mark Zenier) wrote: On the first transmission, (Jan 19, 05:00 UTC), I tried using an oscilloscope to see if I could see the echo. *It was a 4 second cycle with 2 seconds on and 2 off. *(Which made syncing the scope (with a 5 second sweep) a real pain. *The next pulse was going when the first one ended, triggering it again). Anyway, with the narrowest (2 kHz) bandwidth on my old R-1000, it just didn't cut it. *When the outgoing signal was S9+10 (in Seattle) I thought I might have heard an echo or two, but just couldn't be sure. What bandwidth were you successful listeners using? 2 kHz in USB mode on a NRD-535D tuned to 6792.0 kHz and 7407.0 kHz. The cycle (per the HAARP website) was 5 seconds. * *2 seconds on, followed by 3 seconds off. Arne (AzUSA) Note - There is a 2 1/2 Second Round-Trip Lunar Propagation Delay. http://www.setileague.org/eme/emepix3.htm EP .= = = = _ _ _ _ _ _ 5s LR ._ _ _ _ _ -- -- -- -- _ 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time ~ RHF |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
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HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 22, 4:56*am, Billy Burpelson wrote:
wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 22, 7:32*am, RHF wrote:
On Jan 22, 4:56*am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s Look at it as a Repetitive Linear Event : [ Repetitive Signal Interval Timing ] .= = = = * -- -- -- -- *.= = = = *-- -- -- -- *.= = = = * -- -- -- -- * ~ "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle {Instant} "=" Earth Pluse Time {Four 1/2 Second Marks = 2 Seconds} "*" "Silence" in between Non-Signal Time {One 1/2 Second Mark = 1/2 a Second} "--" Lunar Reflection Time {Four 1/2 Second Marks = 2 Seconds} "*" "Silence" in between Non-Signal Time {One 1/2 Second Mark = 1/2 a Second} This Ends the 5 Second Time Cycle and the process repeats itself. Do-the-Math : = 2 + 1/2 + 2 + 1/2 = 5 I 'Trust' to the Fact that the HAARP Scientists are Equal to Rocket Scientists and that : They Do Know What They Are Doing. ~ RHF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_science |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
RHF wrote:
On Jan 22, 4:56 am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF . Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; one-way is ~1.25 seconds. So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way to the moon. Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last ..75 second of the original transmitted pulse still on the way? Inquiring minds want to know... |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 22, 6:00*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote:
RHF wrote: On Jan 22, 4:56 am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF *. - Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. - Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; - one-way is ~1.25 seconds. - - So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will - arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start - back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining - .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way - to the moon. - - Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo - (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last .75 second of the original - transmitted pulse still on the way? - - Inquiring minds want to know... IMHO - To the Radio receiving the Two Separate Signals the Answer would be a : "NO" ~ RHF The receiving Radio is Earth 'based' -and- The Two Signals come by 'different' Paths to it : 1 - First comes the 2-Second Earth Pulse* * The Earth Pulse has a 'Short Path' via Inner Atmosphere SkyWave. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. 2 - Second comes the 2-Second Lunar Reflection** **The Lunar Reflection has a 'Long Path via the Trans-Atmosphere Earth-to-Moon-to-Earth (EME) One-Big-Bounce. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. NOTE - The Two Signal 'arrive' at the Antenna of the receiving Radio at "Separate" Times in a recuring 5-Second Cycle. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article ,
wrote: In article 24335e74-5502-4e0c-b1a5- , says... On Jan 22, 6:00*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote: RHF wrote: On Jan 22, 4:56 am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF *. - Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. - Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; - one-way is ~1.25 seconds. - - So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will - arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start - back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining - .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way - to the moon. This is the way I see it also. Well, technically, that .75 seconds of pulse is not winging its way to the moon because it has not been generated yet. When the very first part of the pulse just touches the moon, it will be at 1.25 seconds as you say, but only 1.25 seconds of pulse will have been generated on earth and be winging its way to the moon. It will take an additional .75 seconds for the rest of the pulse to be generated (transmitted) and be winging its way to the moon. When the earth pulse ends there will still be 1.25 seconds of signal winging its way to the moon, the last 1.25 seconds, but the first .75 seconds of pulse will indeed be on its way back. I know. Picky, picky. - Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo - (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last .75 second of the original - transmitted pulse still on the way? - - Inquiring minds want to know... I have cut and pasted my response to the same question earlier below: The train analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave, and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. It is the energy that is moving across the water, not the water. Here is a good URL for seeing a wave reflecting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ater_wavesrev3. shtml (http://tinyurl.com/2ykkdr) In our case the pulse is much longer so the interaction is longer, and it also is not physical water, but the wave theory is the same. I should also point out that although the returning part of the 2 second wave will not interfere with that part of the wave still on its way, if you could set up your receiver where both parts exist at the same time (i.e. near the moon), I think one might QRM the other as you would be trying to listen to both parts of the wave at the same. That is different than two waves just passing each other. IMHO - To the Radio receiving the Two Separate Signals the Answer would be a : "NO" ~ RHF The receiving Radio is Earth 'based' -and- The Two Signals come by 'different' Paths to it : 1 - First comes the 2-Second Earth Pulse* * The Earth Pulse has a 'Short Path' via Inner Atmosphere SkyWave. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. I would guess the path delay for the terrestrial signal is no more than .04 seconds here in the US, probably less, so transmitted time can be considered received time. 2 - Second comes the 2-Second Lunar Reflection** **The Lunar Reflection has a 'Long Path via the Trans-Atmosphere Earth-to-Moon-to-Earth (EME) One-Big-Bounce. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. NOTE - The Two Signal 'arrive' at the Antenna of the receiving Radio at "Separate" Times in a recuring 5-Second Cycle. Exactly so. At least I have one person that agrees with me ;-). . Per the X-Files : The Answer {Truth} Is Out There ! :o) . Situation #1 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.0 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 11111111111111111111000002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get the 2 seconds direct signal, then 0.5 seconds noise, the 2 seconds moon reflection, then 0.5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.5 seconds. Situation #2 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.1 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 01111111111111111111100002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get 0.1 second noise, then the 2 second direct signal, then 0.4 noise, the 2 second moon reflection, then .5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.4 seconds. Do you see how this works? The echo does not overlap the direct signal. You could think of situation #1 being close to the HAARP station and #2 that you have a magic trigger with no time delay and you are a long distance away from HAARP. #2 is just an example as you can't get far enough away from HAARP for the 0.1 second direct time of flight. If you were 1860 miles away time of flight would be 0.01 seconds for example. You don't live next to HAARP and you don't have the magic trigger so the error you would measure would likely be 0.01 seconds. The error would only be in one direction causing the moon measurement to be closer. You could correct this error by adding the time of direct flight from you to HAARP to the moon reflected signal in #2 situation. In #2 you saw the moon bounce as 2.4 seconds + 0.1 seconds direct brings you back to 2.5 seconds in the #1 situation. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
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