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Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player.
This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy Rory |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
Pipester wrote:
I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy Rory Excellent recording! |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
"David" wrote in message ... Pipester wrote: I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy Rory Excellent recording! TY, but I could have done even better , I wanted to record straight to my computer but never made a cable yet, as I didn't have a reason to record HF ,but I just grabbed my Iriver T10 and started recording on a whim. It did come out pretty good! |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
Pipester wrote:
I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Here is a direct url for those of us with web browsers that choke on the site, to use in a media player: http://download308.mediafire.com/jzn...0/V0118000.ogg Nice recording. Regards, Michael |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
msg wrote:
Pipester wrote: I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Here is a direct url for those of us with web browsers that choke on the site, to use in a media player: http://download308.mediafire.com/jzn...0/V0118000.ogg Nice recording. Sorry, it looks like the hosting site does transactional coding of the url, so it expires shortly after use; I put up the file on my site for a quick download: http://www.cybertheque.org/ham/audio...0Hz_011807.ogg Regards, Michael |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
wrote in message ... In article , says... I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy Rory In general terms, where are you located? Central Louisiana I am in NH and the terrestrial signal here was not much better than your echo return with the echo return here weaker still. There was considerable fading in and out on the terrestrial signal and the echo was absent more than it was present. It came and went here , I happened to record when I was hearing the echo consistantly The echo was strongest here at 35 past the hour. I never did hear a signal on 7407.5 kHz that I could say for sure was there. Me either, but that was due to Major QRM/QRN at my location |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
On Jan 19, 8:37*am, "Pipester" wrote:
I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. *This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy *Rory OGG Files : http://www.vorbis.com/ INFO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg DLI -http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ EXE - http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/oggcodecs_0.71.0946.exe ~ RHF |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
On Jan 19, 3:47*pm, RHF wrote:
On Jan 19, 8:37*am, "Pipester" wrote: I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. *This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy *Rory OGG Files :http://www.vorbis.com/ INFO -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg DLI -http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ EXE -http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/oggcodecs_0.71.0946.exe ~ RHF *. Pipester, You can hear both the Originating Earth Pulse and the Reflective Lunar Tone : Although I understand that the Reflective Lunar Tone that you are hearing is actually Echo from a couple of Pulses before. Note - There is a 2 1/2 Second Round-Trip Lunar Propagation Delay. http://www.setileague.org/eme/emepix3.htm ~ RHF |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
In article ffd0d3c9-18d9-4b7b-95dc-
, says... On Jan 19, 3:47*pm, RHF wrote: On Jan 19, 8:37*am, "Pipester" wrote: I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. *This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy *Rory OGG Files :http://www.vorbis.com/ INFO -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg DLI -http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ EXE -http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/oggcodecs_0.71.0946.exe ~ RHF *. Pipester, You can hear both the Originating Earth Pulse and the Reflective Lunar Tone : Although I understand that the Reflective Lunar Tone that you are hearing is actually Echo from a couple of Pulses before. I think that echo you hear is the one that results from the terrestrial pulse you just heard, and not 1 or 2 back. My guess is that the leading edge of the reflected pulse arrives approx. 2.5 seconds after it leaves and the same for the trailing edge of the pulse. That means if you look at entire 5 second time line, at 0 seconds the earth pulse starts and at 2 seconds it ends. At 2.5 seconds the beginning part of the echo pulse arrives and at 4.5 seconds (2.5 seconds after the terrestrial pulse ended) the end of the echo pulse arrives. There is always 2.5 seconds between any reference point on the timeline of the sent pulse to the corresponding point on the timeline of the return pulse. One complete cycle of send/receive should be approximately 4.5 seconds. I think that is why they selected 5 seconds between sending 2 second pulses. At least that is the way I view it. I am open to other views. Note - There is a 2 1/2 Second Round-Trip Lunar Propagation Delay. http://www.setileague.org/eme/emepix3.htm ~ RHF . |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article , wrote:
In article ffd0d3c9-18d9-4b7b-95dc- I think that echo you hear is the one that results from the terrestrial pulse you just heard, and not 1 or 2 back. My guess is that the leading edge of the reflected pulse arrives approx. 2.5 seconds after it leaves and the same for the trailing edge of the pulse. That means if you look at entire 5 second time line, at 0 seconds the earth pulse starts and at 2 seconds it ends. At 2.5 seconds the beginning part of the echo pulse arrives and at 4.5 seconds (2.5 seconds after the terrestrial pulse ended) the end of the echo pulse arrives. There is always 2.5 seconds between any reference point on the timeline of the sent pulse to the corresponding point on the timeline of the return pulse. One complete cycle of send/receive should be approximately 4.5 seconds. I think that is why they selected 5 seconds between sending 2 second pulses. At least that is the way I view it. I am open to other views. On the first transmission, (Jan 19, 05:00 UTC), I tried using an oscilloscope to see if I could see the echo. It was a 4 second cycle with 2 seconds on and 2 off. (Which made syncing the scope (with a 5 second sweep) a real pain. The next pulse was going when the first one ended, triggering it again). Anyway, with the narrowest (2 kHz) bandwidth on my old R-1000, it just didn't cut it. When the outgoing signal was S9+10 (in Seattle) I thought I might have heard an echo or two, but just couldn't be sure. What bandwidth were you successful listeners using? Mark Zenier Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com) |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 21, 9:51 am, Arne wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:35:37 GMT, (Mark Zenier) wrote: On the first transmission, (Jan 19, 05:00 UTC), I tried using an oscilloscope to see if I could see the echo. It was a 4 second cycle with 2 seconds on and 2 off. (Which made syncing the scope (with a 5 second sweep) a real pain. The next pulse was going when the first one ended, triggering it again). Anyway, with the narrowest (2 kHz) bandwidth on my old R-1000, it just didn't cut it. When the outgoing signal was S9+10 (in Seattle) I thought I might have heard an echo or two, but just couldn't be sure. What bandwidth were you successful listeners using? 2 kHz in USB mode on a NRD-535D tuned to 6792.0 kHz and 7407.0 kHz. The cycle (per the HAARP website) was 5 seconds. 2 seconds on, followed by 3 seconds off. Arne (AzUSA) It seems those that heard the reflected signal were in the south. I used a crystal CW filter. 250hz BW. My recollection is that is at -6dB, not -3dB. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 21, 9:51*am, Arne wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:35:37 GMT, (Mark Zenier) wrote: On the first transmission, (Jan 19, 05:00 UTC), I tried using an oscilloscope to see if I could see the echo. *It was a 4 second cycle with 2 seconds on and 2 off. *(Which made syncing the scope (with a 5 second sweep) a real pain. *The next pulse was going when the first one ended, triggering it again). Anyway, with the narrowest (2 kHz) bandwidth on my old R-1000, it just didn't cut it. *When the outgoing signal was S9+10 (in Seattle) I thought I might have heard an echo or two, but just couldn't be sure. What bandwidth were you successful listeners using? 2 kHz in USB mode on a NRD-535D tuned to 6792.0 kHz and 7407.0 kHz. The cycle (per the HAARP website) was 5 seconds. * *2 seconds on, followed by 3 seconds off. Arne (AzUSA) Note - There is a 2 1/2 Second Round-Trip Lunar Propagation Delay. http://www.setileague.org/eme/emepix3.htm EP .= = = = _ _ _ _ _ _ 5s LR ._ _ _ _ _ -- -- -- -- _ 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time ~ RHF |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article 76070442-c8f1-4043-8437-d9e3cbaad885
@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, says... Note - There is a 2 1/2 Second Round-Trip Lunar Propagation Delay. http://www.setileague.org/eme/emepix3.htm EP .= = = = _ _ _ _ _ _ 5s LR ._ _ _ _ _ -- -- -- -- _ 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time ~ RHF . I don't think that is quite correct. If the pulse were only a millisecond long, 0 to .001 on the time line, you would receive the echo at between 2.500 and 2.501 seconds on the time line. If you think of a two second pulse as only a series of millisecond pulses, the first pulse (or the beginning of a two second pulse) would be hitting the moon after 1.25 seconds and starting on its way back before the last millisecond pulse (or the end of the 2 second pulse) even left. I think you are treating the pulse as a single discrete object that actually doesn't leave until the pulse is complete, like bouncing a ball off the wall. I don't think that is the case. I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. The engine will reach the end of the return leg 2.5 seconds after it left. The caboose will also reach the end of the return leg 2.5 seconds after it left, but it will be 4.5 seconds after the engine left making the total time for the train (2 second pulse) to make the trip (one cycle) 4.5 seconds. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
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HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 22, 4:56*am, Billy Burpelson wrote:
wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 22, 7:32*am, RHF wrote:
On Jan 22, 4:56*am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s Look at it as a Repetitive Linear Event : [ Repetitive Signal Interval Timing ] .= = = = * -- -- -- -- *.= = = = *-- -- -- -- *.= = = = * -- -- -- -- * ~ "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle {Instant} "=" Earth Pluse Time {Four 1/2 Second Marks = 2 Seconds} "*" "Silence" in between Non-Signal Time {One 1/2 Second Mark = 1/2 a Second} "--" Lunar Reflection Time {Four 1/2 Second Marks = 2 Seconds} "*" "Silence" in between Non-Signal Time {One 1/2 Second Mark = 1/2 a Second} This Ends the 5 Second Time Cycle and the process repeats itself. Do-the-Math : = 2 + 1/2 + 2 + 1/2 = 5 I 'Trust' to the Fact that the HAARP Scientists are Equal to Rocket Scientists and that : They Do Know What They Are Doing. ~ RHF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_science |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
RHF wrote:
On Jan 22, 4:56 am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF . Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; one-way is ~1.25 seconds. So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way to the moon. Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last ..75 second of the original transmitted pulse still on the way? Inquiring minds want to know... |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 22, 6:00*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote:
RHF wrote: On Jan 22, 4:56 am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF *. - Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. - Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; - one-way is ~1.25 seconds. - - So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will - arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start - back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining - .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way - to the moon. - - Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo - (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last .75 second of the original - transmitted pulse still on the way? - - Inquiring minds want to know... IMHO - To the Radio receiving the Two Separate Signals the Answer would be a : "NO" ~ RHF The receiving Radio is Earth 'based' -and- The Two Signals come by 'different' Paths to it : 1 - First comes the 2-Second Earth Pulse* * The Earth Pulse has a 'Short Path' via Inner Atmosphere SkyWave. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. 2 - Second comes the 2-Second Lunar Reflection** **The Lunar Reflection has a 'Long Path via the Trans-Atmosphere Earth-to-Moon-to-Earth (EME) One-Big-Bounce. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. NOTE - The Two Signal 'arrive' at the Antenna of the receiving Radio at "Separate" Times in a recuring 5-Second Cycle. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article ,
wrote: In article 24335e74-5502-4e0c-b1a5- , says... On Jan 22, 6:00*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote: RHF wrote: On Jan 22, 4:56 am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF *. - Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. - Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; - one-way is ~1.25 seconds. - - So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will - arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start - back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining - .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way - to the moon. This is the way I see it also. Well, technically, that .75 seconds of pulse is not winging its way to the moon because it has not been generated yet. When the very first part of the pulse just touches the moon, it will be at 1.25 seconds as you say, but only 1.25 seconds of pulse will have been generated on earth and be winging its way to the moon. It will take an additional .75 seconds for the rest of the pulse to be generated (transmitted) and be winging its way to the moon. When the earth pulse ends there will still be 1.25 seconds of signal winging its way to the moon, the last 1.25 seconds, but the first .75 seconds of pulse will indeed be on its way back. I know. Picky, picky. - Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo - (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last .75 second of the original - transmitted pulse still on the way? - - Inquiring minds want to know... I have cut and pasted my response to the same question earlier below: The train analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave, and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. It is the energy that is moving across the water, not the water. Here is a good URL for seeing a wave reflecting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ater_wavesrev3. shtml (http://tinyurl.com/2ykkdr) In our case the pulse is much longer so the interaction is longer, and it also is not physical water, but the wave theory is the same. I should also point out that although the returning part of the 2 second wave will not interfere with that part of the wave still on its way, if you could set up your receiver where both parts exist at the same time (i.e. near the moon), I think one might QRM the other as you would be trying to listen to both parts of the wave at the same. That is different than two waves just passing each other. IMHO - To the Radio receiving the Two Separate Signals the Answer would be a : "NO" ~ RHF The receiving Radio is Earth 'based' -and- The Two Signals come by 'different' Paths to it : 1 - First comes the 2-Second Earth Pulse* * The Earth Pulse has a 'Short Path' via Inner Atmosphere SkyWave. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. I would guess the path delay for the terrestrial signal is no more than .04 seconds here in the US, probably less, so transmitted time can be considered received time. 2 - Second comes the 2-Second Lunar Reflection** **The Lunar Reflection has a 'Long Path via the Trans-Atmosphere Earth-to-Moon-to-Earth (EME) One-Big-Bounce. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. NOTE - The Two Signal 'arrive' at the Antenna of the receiving Radio at "Separate" Times in a recuring 5-Second Cycle. Exactly so. At least I have one person that agrees with me ;-). . Per the X-Files : The Answer {Truth} Is Out There ! :o) . Situation #1 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.0 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 11111111111111111111000002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get the 2 seconds direct signal, then 0.5 seconds noise, the 2 seconds moon reflection, then 0.5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.5 seconds. Situation #2 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.1 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 01111111111111111111100002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get 0.1 second noise, then the 2 second direct signal, then 0.4 noise, the 2 second moon reflection, then .5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.4 seconds. Do you see how this works? The echo does not overlap the direct signal. You could think of situation #1 being close to the HAARP station and #2 that you have a magic trigger with no time delay and you are a long distance away from HAARP. #2 is just an example as you can't get far enough away from HAARP for the 0.1 second direct time of flight. If you were 1860 miles away time of flight would be 0.01 seconds for example. You don't live next to HAARP and you don't have the magic trigger so the error you would measure would likely be 0.01 seconds. The error would only be in one direction causing the moon measurement to be closer. You could correct this error by adding the time of direct flight from you to HAARP to the moon reflected signal in #2 situation. In #2 you saw the moon bounce as 2.4 seconds + 0.1 seconds direct brings you back to 2.5 seconds in the #1 situation. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 22, 9:06*pm, wrote:
In article 24335e74-5502-4e0c-b1a5- , says... On Jan 22, 6:00*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote: RHF wrote: On Jan 22, 4:56 am, Billy Burpelson wrote: wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). *The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. * An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? BP, "*" In the 5 Second Time Cycle for the Two Signals; this is the Two Periods of 'Silence' between the Earth Pulse and the Lunar Reflection. EP .= = = = * _ _ _ _ * 5s LR ._ _ _ _ * -- -- -- -- * 5s "." Start of the Time Sync for 5 Second Signal Cycle "=" Earth Pluse Time "_" Non-Signal Time "--" Lunar Reflection Time A 2 Second Earth Pulse with a 2.5 Second Lunar Reflection Delay creates a One-Half (1/2) Second Period of Silence between the two Signals. ~ RHF *. - Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. - Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; - one-way is ~1.25 seconds. - - So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will - arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start - back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining - .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way - to the moon. This is the way I see it also. *Well, technically, that .75 seconds of pulse is not winging its way to the moon because it has not been generated yet. *When the very first part of the pulse just touches the moon, it will be at 1.25 seconds as you say, but only 1.25 seconds of pulse will have been generated on earth and be winging its way to the moon. *It will take an additional .75 seconds for the rest of the pulse to be generated (transmitted) and be winging its way to the moon. When the earth pulse ends there will still be 1.25 seconds of signal winging its way to the moon, the last 1.25 seconds, but the first .75 seconds of pulse will indeed be on its way back. I know. Picky, picky. - Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo - (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last .75 second of the original - transmitted pulse still on the way? - - Inquiring minds want to know... I have cut and pasted my response to the same question earlier below: The train analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave, and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. *When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". *The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. * It is the energy that is moving across the water, not the water. Here is a good URL for seeing a wave reflecting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ater_wavesrev3. shtml (http://tinyurl.com/2ykkdr) In our case the pulse is much longer so the interaction is longer, and it also is not physical water, but the wave theory is the same. - I should also point out that although the returning part of the 2 second wave will not interfere with that part of the wave still on its way, - if you could set up your receiver - where both parts exist - at the same time - (i.e. near the moon), VERY SPECIAL CONDITIONS : That would require that the First Antenna 'Existed' in Reality and a Second Antenna 'Existing' in a 2.5 Second Time Shift. That would be some set of diversity antennas. ~ RHF - I think one might QRM the other as you would be - trying to listen to both parts of the wave at the same. Yes in Theory -if- Both Signals were Time Shifted so that they did indeed 'exist' at the same time. -*That is different than two waves just passing each other. At the Mid-Point between the Earth-&-Moon With Two Antennas : One for the Earth Pulse {In-Time} and a Second for the Lunar Reflection {Shifted in Time to 'Be' In-Time} : Both Signals would 'be' "Passing Each Other" from Opposite Directions and thus could QEM Each Other. IIRC -IF- You were on the Surface of the Moon at the Center of the Reflected Signal : You would Hear the Earth Pulse very well. You Would Not Hear Any Lunar Reflection At All [.] THINK ABOUT IT { Here on Earth } : Do You Hear ? "The Reflection" From Your Receiving Antenna 'On' the Signal Being Received ? it is the nature {physics} of things at one instance in time ~ RHF IMHO - To the Radio receiving the Two Separate Signals the Answer would be a : "NO" ~ RHF The receiving Radio is Earth 'based' -and- The Two Signals come by 'different' Paths to it : 1 - First comes the 2-Second Earth Pulse* * The Earth Pulse has a 'Short Path' via Inner Atmosphere SkyWave. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. I would guess the path delay for the terrestrial signal is no more than .04 seconds here in the US, probably less, so transmitted time can be considered received time. 2 - Second comes the 2-Second Lunar Reflection** **The Lunar Reflection has a 'Long Path via the Trans-Atmosphere Earth-to-Moon-to-Earth (EME) One-Big-Bounce. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. NOTE - The Two Signal 'arrive' at the Antenna of the receiving Radio at "Separate" Times in a recuring 5-Second Cycle. Exactly so. At least I have one person that agrees with me ;-). *. Per the X-Files : The Answer {Truth} Is Out There ! :o) *.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article telamon_spamshield-4766A5.22462822012008
@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net, lid says... SNIP - Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. - Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; - one-way is ~1.25 seconds. - - So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will - arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start - back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining - .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way - to the moon. This is the way I see it also. Well, technically, that .75 seconds of pulse is not winging its way to the moon because it has not been generated yet. When the very first part of the pulse just touches the moon, it will be at 1.25 seconds as you say, but only 1.25 seconds of pulse will have been generated on earth and be winging its way to the moon. It will take an additional .75 seconds for the rest of the pulse to be generated (transmitted) and be winging its way to the moon. When the earth pulse ends there will still be 1.25 seconds of signal winging its way to the moon, the last 1.25 seconds, but the first .75 seconds of pulse will indeed be on its way back. I know. Picky, picky. - Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo - (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last .75 second of the original - transmitted pulse still on the way? - - Inquiring minds want to know... I have cut and pasted my response to the same question earlier below: The train analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave, and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. It is the energy that is moving across the water, not the water. Here is a good URL for seeing a wave reflecting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ater_wavesrev3. shtml (http://tinyurl.com/2ykkdr) In our case the pulse is much longer so the interaction is longer, and it also is not physical water, but the wave theory is the same. I should also point out that although the returning part of the 2 second wave will not interfere with that part of the wave still on its way, if you could set up your receiver where both parts exist at the same time (i.e. near the moon), I think one might QRM the other as you would be trying to listen to both parts of the wave at the same. That is different than two waves just passing each other. IMHO - To the Radio receiving the Two Separate Signals the Answer would be a : "NO" ~ RHF The receiving Radio is Earth 'based' -and- The Two Signals come by 'different' Paths to it : 1 - First comes the 2-Second Earth Pulse* * The Earth Pulse has a 'Short Path' via Inner Atmosphere SkyWave. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. I would guess the path delay for the terrestrial signal is no more than .04 seconds here in the US, probably less, so transmitted time can be considered received time. 2 - Second comes the 2-Second Lunar Reflection** **The Lunar Reflection has a 'Long Path via the Trans-Atmosphere Earth-to-Moon-to-Earth (EME) One-Big-Bounce. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. NOTE - The Two Signal 'arrive' at the Antenna of the receiving Radio at "Separate" Times in a recuring 5-Second Cycle. Exactly so. At least I have one person that agrees with me ;-). . Per the X-Files : The Answer {Truth} Is Out There ! :o) . Situation #1 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.0 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 11111111111111111111000002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get the 2 seconds direct signal, then 0.5 seconds noise, the 2 seconds moon reflection, then 0.5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.5 seconds. Situation #2 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.1 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 01111111111111111111100002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get 0.1 second noise, then the 2 second direct signal, then 0.4 noise, the 2 second moon reflection, then .5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.4 seconds. Do you see how this works? The echo does not overlap the direct signal. You could think of situation #1 being close to the HAARP station and #2 that you have a magic trigger with no time delay and you are a long distance away from HAARP. #2 is just an example as you can't get far enough away from HAARP for the 0.1 second direct time of flight. If you were 1860 miles away time of flight would be 0.01 seconds for example. You don't live next to HAARP and you don't have the magic trigger so the error you would measure would likely be 0.01 seconds. The error would only be in one direction causing the moon measurement to be closer. You could correct this error by adding the time of direct flight from you to HAARP to the moon reflected signal in #2 situation. In #2 you saw the moon bounce as 2.4 seconds + 0.1 seconds direct brings you back to 2.5 seconds in the #1 situation. I agree with this analysis completely. Was there something posted previously that you did not agree with that prompted this? |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article ,
wrote: In article telamon_spamshield-4766A5.22462822012008 @newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net, lid says... SNIP - Roy, I think you might still might be missing the point here. - Yes, the ROUND-TRIP delay is 2.5 seconds; - one-way is ~1.25 seconds. - - So, if you send a 2 second long pulse -to- the moon, it will - arrive in 1.25 seconds and thus the reflected signal will start - back at time 1.25 seconds; but there is still the remaining - .75 second of the original terrestrial pulse still winging its way - to the moon. This is the way I see it also. Well, technically, that .75 seconds of pulse is not winging its way to the moon because it has not been generated yet. When the very first part of the pulse just touches the moon, it will be at 1.25 seconds as you say, but only 1.25 seconds of pulse will have been generated on earth and be winging its way to the moon. It will take an additional .75 seconds for the rest of the pulse to be generated (transmitted) and be winging its way to the moon. When the earth pulse ends there will still be 1.25 seconds of signal winging its way to the moon, the last 1.25 seconds, but the first .75 seconds of pulse will indeed be on its way back. I know. Picky, picky. - Thus my original question: Will the beginning of the echo - (at time 1.25 sec) QRM the last .75 second of the original - transmitted pulse still on the way? - - Inquiring minds want to know... I have cut and pasted my response to the same question earlier below: The train analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave, and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. It is the energy that is moving across the water, not the water. Here is a good URL for seeing a wave reflecting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ater_wavesrev3. shtml (http://tinyurl.com/2ykkdr) In our case the pulse is much longer so the interaction is longer, and it also is not physical water, but the wave theory is the same. I should also point out that although the returning part of the 2 second wave will not interfere with that part of the wave still on its way, if you could set up your receiver where both parts exist at the same time (i.e. near the moon), I think one might QRM the other as you would be trying to listen to both parts of the wave at the same. That is different than two waves just passing each other. IMHO - To the Radio receiving the Two Separate Signals the Answer would be a : "NO" ~ RHF The receiving Radio is Earth 'based' -and- The Two Signals come by 'different' Paths to it : 1 - First comes the 2-Second Earth Pulse* * The Earth Pulse has a 'Short Path' via Inner Atmosphere SkyWave. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. I would guess the path delay for the terrestrial signal is no more than .04 seconds here in the US, probably less, so transmitted time can be considered received time. 2 - Second comes the 2-Second Lunar Reflection** **The Lunar Reflection has a 'Long Path via the Trans-Atmosphere Earth-to-Moon-to-Earth (EME) One-Big-Bounce. - - - followed by a 1/2 Second of Silence. NOTE - The Two Signal 'arrive' at the Antenna of the receiving Radio at "Separate" Times in a recuring 5-Second Cycle. Exactly so. At least I have one person that agrees with me ;-). . Per the X-Files : The Answer {Truth} Is Out There ! :o) . Situation #1 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.0 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 11111111111111111111000002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get the 2 seconds direct signal, then 0.5 seconds noise, the 2 seconds moon reflection, then 0.5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.5 seconds. Situation #2 Lets say the direct earth signal "1" takes 0.1 seconds to reach you and the moon bounce signal "2" takes 2.5 seconds. One frame sequence would be: Each number represents .1 second 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 01111111111111111111100002222222222222222222200000 The cycle starts and you get 0.1 second noise, then the 2 second direct signal, then 0.4 noise, the 2 second moon reflection, then .5 second noise, then the cycle repeats. The leading edge of the direct to reflected is 2.4 seconds. Do you see how this works? The echo does not overlap the direct signal. You could think of situation #1 being close to the HAARP station and #2 that you have a magic trigger with no time delay and you are a long distance away from HAARP. #2 is just an example as you can't get far enough away from HAARP for the 0.1 second direct time of flight. If you were 1860 miles away time of flight would be 0.01 seconds for example. You don't live next to HAARP and you don't have the magic trigger so the error you would measure would likely be 0.01 seconds. The error would only be in one direction causing the moon measurement to be closer. You could correct this error by adding the time of direct flight from you to HAARP to the moon reflected signal in #2 situation. In #2 you saw the moon bounce as 2.4 seconds + 0.1 seconds direct brings you back to 2.5 seconds in the #1 situation. I agree with this analysis completely. Was there something posted previously that you did not agree with that prompted this? What other people posted indicated they did not understand what was happening so I posted the examples. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
wrote:
In article , says... wrote: I think it is more like a long train (2 seconds long) on a short U shaped track (1.25 seconds on each leg). The engine coming back will pass the caboose still on its way to the end of the U. An interesting and thoughtful response. However, it generates a question: In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship. It is the energy that is moving across the water, not the water. Here is a good URL for seeing a wave reflecting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ater_wavesrev3. shtml (http://tinyurl.com/2ykkdr) In our case the pulse is much longer so the interaction is longer, and it also is not physical water, but the wave theory is the same. What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly stated in your 'train' analogy). Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA -- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for the .75 seconds in question? Let me give you one more analogy: Assume the moon is -totally- absorbent (no RF reflections). Next assume an earth station sends a 2 second long 7.0000 MHz CW signal towards the moon. Finally, assume there is a radio operator on the moon. The -instant- he hears the earth signal, he turns on -his- 7.0000 MHz CW transmitter. Again, because of the 2 second earth signal and only a 1.25 second transit time, the two signals will overlap by 0.75 seconds. How can they NOT interfere with each other for the .75 second overlap? This is -exactly- like SWBC jamming (only unintentional) and all the 'wave theory' in the world doesn't mean jamming doesn't work. Sorry, but I believe two signals on the same frequency during the same period of time will interfere with each other. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
Telamon wrote:
Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist at the same time anywhere on the earth? Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay attention. I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the -same- time 'anywhere on earth'. What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit occured. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article ,
Billy Burpelson wrote: Telamon wrote: Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist at the same time anywhere on the earth? Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay attention. Yes I understand what you wrote loser and I'm doing my best to explain that your thinking is incorrect. I'm the second person tell you this. I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the -same- time 'anywhere on earth'. I didn't say you did. I was trying to give you the bigger picture. What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit occured. OK you misunderstood what I wrote, which is these EM waves can mix as you think in a antenna in the part of space where the wave going to the moon exists in the same space time as the reflected signal. Without the antenna these waves do not interact. With the antenna they do interact. Is that redundant enough for you? Logically, since no antennas exist in this area of space time your idle speculation is moot. Now you have had two people explain this to you so if this does not sink into your very dense skull give up. Let me explain something else to you O'clueless wonder and that's if you don't get it your problem not mine. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 24, 7:08*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote:
Telamon wrote: Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist at the same time anywhere on the earth? Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay attention. I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the -same- time 'anywhere on earth'. - - What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo - (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves - the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the - trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). - Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation - of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a - distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will - ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much - out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the - circuit occured. - BP, What you are saying is the 'theoretical' Signal Time-Line on the Moon 'might-be' : [ Roughly 0.1 Second Time Increments ] EEEEEEEEEE 1 { 'E' 100% Earth Pulse } EEEEEEEEEE 2 EEEEEEEEEE 3 EEEEEEEEEE 4 EEEEEEEEEE 5 EEEEEEEEEE 6 EEEEEEEEEE 7 EEEEEEEEEE 8 EEEEEEEEEE 9 EEEEEEEEEE 10 EEEEEEEEEE 11 EEEEEEEEEE 12 eeeee l l l l l 13 { 'e l' Mixed Signal Conditions} eeeee l l l l l 14 eeeee l l l l l 15 eeeee l l l l l 16 eeeee l l l l l 17 eeeee l l l l l 18 eeeee l l l l l 19 eeeee l l l l l 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 { 'L' 100% Lunar Reflection } LLLLLLLLLL 22 LLLLLLLLLL 23 LLLLLLLLLL 24 LLLLLLLLLL 25 LLLLLLLLLL 26 LLLLLLLLLL 27 LLLLLLLLLL 28 LLLLLLLLLL 29 LLLLLLLLLL 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 LLLLLLLLLL 22 IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions" to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio. OK - It is 'possible' ~ RHF |
(OT) : HAARPing With Telamon - Do We Have Enough Bandwidth ? - The Never Ending Lunar echo, Echo. ECHO !
In article
, RHF wrote: On Jan 25, 4:55*pm, Telamon wrote: In article , *RHF wrote: On Jan 24, 7:08*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote: Telamon wrote: Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist at the same time anywhere on the earth? Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay attention. I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the -same- time 'anywhere on earth'. - - What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo - (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves - the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the - trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). - Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation - of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a - distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will - ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much - out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the - circuit occured. - BP, What you are saying is the 'theoretical' Signal Time-Line on the Moon 'might-be' : [ Roughly 0.1 Second Time Increments ] EEEEEEEEEE 1 *{ 'E' 100% Earth Pulse } EEEEEEEEEE 2 EEEEEEEEEE 3 EEEEEEEEEE 4 EEEEEEEEEE 5 EEEEEEEEEE 6 EEEEEEEEEE 7 EEEEEEEEEE 8 EEEEEEEEEE 9 EEEEEEEEEE 10 EEEEEEEEEE 11 EEEEEEEEEE 12 eeeee l l l l l 13 *{ 'e l' Mixed Signal Conditions} eeeee l l l l l 14 eeeee l l l l l 15 eeeee l l l l l 16 eeeee l l l l l 17 eeeee l l l l l 18 eeeee l l l l l 19 eeeee l l l l l 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 { 'L' 100% Lunar Reflection } LLLLLLLLLL 22 LLLLLLLLLL 23 LLLLLLLLLL 24 LLLLLLLLLL 25 LLLLLLLLLL 26 LLLLLLLLLL 27 LLLLLLLLLL 28 LLLLLLLLLL 29 LLLLLLLLLL 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 LLLLLLLLLL 22 IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions" to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio. OK - It is 'possible' ~ RHF *. (OT) : HAARPing With Telamon : Do We Have Enough Bandwidth ? The Never Ending Lunar echo, Echo. ECHO ! - For God's sake it's not possible. OK - We have your word for that. -ps- For God's Sake : Chill-Out Dude ! This was a Hypothetical Discussion based on the 'potential' for 'possibilities' given the condition of 'what if' where the 'if' beyond both the Scientific and practical limits of the Experiment. Remember - There is an 'if' in the word : "Scient-if-ic" - Didn't you read my examples? Yes But - Maybe I did not understand them in the same the way that you did. - Can't you think at all? thinking, Thinking. THINKING ! - OK - My Trible Redundant System Check Shows That : I Can Think ! - EM waves don't directly interact with each other anyway. Hey Score One For You ! {In FreeSpace} However - I Did Write : IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions" to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio. Once Two Signals are inside a Radio/Recever "It Ain't Free Space" - Think what would the result would be if this luny-tunes idea were true. A Universal Mixed Product RF/EM Environment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe - How about the people that designed the experiment? Maybe 'if' you would first read and attempt to understand -vice- Being So Judgemental : Remember I wrote in this very thread : Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave From: RHF Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:03:28 -0800 (PST) Local: Tues, Jan 22 2008 8:03 am Subject: HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo) http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...46e18812e433e1 . I 'Trust' to the Fact that the HAARP Scientists are Equal to Rocket Scientists and that : They Do Know What They Are Doing. ~ RHF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_science - Do they have a functioning brain? IMHO - Clearly They Do. - I would say yes! On That We Can Agree. - Do you? On That We Clearly Disagree. - I would say no and that also goes for Billy boy. You Are Entitle To You Opinion. EVEN WHEN YOU ARE WRONG [.] To bad for you that you don't understand. By all means don't take my word for it as you can go read up on the subject. - How embarrassing. Yes - Indeed "How Embarrassing" For You. ~ RHF You don't get it even after I posted about it? You can go educate yourself but that takes work doesn't it? So you won't do the work you will instead continue to remain ignorant either for the reason of ability or laziness but that's your problem not mine. So do continue to make foolish posts. They are very entertaining. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article ,
says... SNIP In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship. What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not "wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as before they overlapped. I found a reference on the web (http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf) that says it much better than I could. On page 109 the author states: (Beginning of Quote) "Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same characteristics as before." (End of Quote) SNIP What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly stated in your 'train' analogy). Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. Thinking back to the train analogy, the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap. That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap. Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA -- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for the .75 seconds in question? I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference. Let me give you one more analogy: Assume the moon is -totally- absorbent (no RF reflections). Next assume an earth station sends a 2 second long 7.0000 MHz CW signal towards the moon. Finally, assume there is a radio operator on the moon. The -instant- he hears the earth signal, he turns on -his- 7.0000 MHz CW transmitter. Again, because of the 2 second earth signal and only a 1.25 second transit time, the two signals will overlap by 0.75 seconds. How can they NOT interfere with each other for the .75 second overlap? This is -exactly- like SWBC jamming (only unintentional) and all the 'wave theory' in the world doesn't mean jamming doesn't work. Sorry, but I believe two signals on the same frequency during the same period of time will interfere with each other. I agree. I thought your opening question, "what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal?", was asking why the overlapping signals (transmitted and echo) didn't QRM the echo at the receivers on earth. That is why I gave the example of the stones to show that did not happen. I did not realize you were indicating a hypothetical receiver where the signals are overlapping. My apologies. |
(OT) : HAARPing With Telamon - Do We Have Enough Bandwidth ? - TheNever Ending Lunar echo, Echo. ECHO !
On Jan 25, 5:19*pm, Telamon
wrote: In article , *RHF wrote: On Jan 24, 7:08*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote: Telamon wrote: Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist at the same time anywhere on the earth? Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay attention. I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the -same- time 'anywhere on earth'. - - What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo - (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves - the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the - trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). - Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation - of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a - distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will - ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much - out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the - circuit occured. - BP, What you are saying is the 'theoretical' Signal Time-Line on the Moon 'might-be' : [ Roughly 0.1 Second Time Increments ] EEEEEEEEEE 1 *{ 'E' 100% Earth Pulse } EEEEEEEEEE 2 EEEEEEEEEE 3 EEEEEEEEEE 4 EEEEEEEEEE 5 EEEEEEEEEE 6 EEEEEEEEEE 7 EEEEEEEEEE 8 EEEEEEEEEE 9 EEEEEEEEEE 10 EEEEEEEEEE 11 EEEEEEEEEE 12 eeeee l l l l l 13 *{ 'e l' Mixed Signal Conditions} eeeee l l l l l 14 eeeee l l l l l 15 eeeee l l l l l 16 eeeee l l l l l 17 eeeee l l l l l 18 eeeee l l l l l 19 eeeee l l l l l 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 { 'L' 100% Lunar Reflection } LLLLLLLLLL 22 LLLLLLLLLL 23 LLLLLLLLLL 24 LLLLLLLLLL 25 LLLLLLLLLL 26 LLLLLLLLLL 27 LLLLLLLLLL 28 LLLLLLLLLL 29 LLLLLLLLLL 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 LLLLLLLLLL 22 IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions" to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio. OK - It is 'possible' ~ RHF *. - - Here get yourself one of these and don't take it off for any reason. - - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/ healthmain.html?in - _article_id=510172&in_page_id=1774 - - -- - Telamon - Ventura, California - Gee - Telamon - A Personage of Your Great Knowledge : Don't You Know How To Provide and Un-Truncated Link/URL ? -=WRT=- Your Link from the Daily Mail [UK] The Helmet That Could Turn Back The Symptoms of Alzheimer's { Electro Gizmo Beanie - http://tinyurl.com/3xem75 } http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...page_id=17 74 -by- David Derbyshire - The Daily Mail - 25th January 2008 Telamon - I take it that this Recommendation is base on your own Personal Experience : Oops I've Got News For You . . . It Ain't Working ! ~ RHF OBTW - I prefer the Inverted "CK" Antenna : After all it is a passive device and natually : No Batteries Are Required. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...260fb0b38afd68 The Inverted "CK" Antenna (Patent Pending) is the Ultimate Solution for All Your Cranial Reception and Cerebral Interference Needs. CAUTION: When Properly Installed. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...1dbdfa5566478c YES - The Inverted "CK" Antenna - For the ever Increasing Number of Senior-Moments that are getting ever and forever longer and longer . . . WOW - When The Tin Foil Hat Just Can't Get The Crazy Job Done. It's time to put the Inverted "CK" Antenna back-on ! Remember the Solid Copper Kettle Pot Keeps the Brain from Boiling. telamon -wrt- alzheimer's disease - I honestly hope that no member of you family is so afflected. - it ain't no joke [.] ~ RHF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alzheimer's_disease |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article ,
wrote: In article , says... SNIP In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship. What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not "wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as before they overlapped. I found a reference on the web (http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf) that says it much better than I could. On page 109 the author states: (Beginning of Quote) "Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same characteristics as before." (End of Quote) SNIP What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly stated in your 'train' analogy). Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. Thinking back to the train analogy, the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap. That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap. Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA -- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for the .75 seconds in question? I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference. Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a vector sum. Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound like interference. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
(OT) : HAARPing With Telamon - Do We Have Enough Bandwidth ? -The Never Ending Lunar echo, Echo. ECHO !
On Jan 25, 9:36*pm, Telamon
wrote: In article , *RHF wrote: On Jan 25, 4:55*pm, Telamon wrote: In article , *RHF wrote: On Jan 24, 7:08*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote: Telamon wrote: Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist at the same time anywhere on the earth? Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay attention. I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the -same- time 'anywhere on earth'. - - What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo - (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves - the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the - trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). - Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation - of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a - distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will - ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much - out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the - circuit occured. - BP, What you are saying is the 'theoretical' Signal Time-Line on the Moon 'might-be' : [ Roughly 0.1 Second Time Increments ] EEEEEEEEEE 1 *{ 'E' 100% Earth Pulse } EEEEEEEEEE 2 EEEEEEEEEE 3 EEEEEEEEEE 4 EEEEEEEEEE 5 EEEEEEEEEE 6 EEEEEEEEEE 7 EEEEEEEEEE 8 EEEEEEEEEE 9 EEEEEEEEEE 10 EEEEEEEEEE 11 EEEEEEEEEE 12 eeeee l l l l l 13 *{ 'e l' Mixed Signal Conditions} eeeee l l l l l 14 eeeee l l l l l 15 eeeee l l l l l 16 eeeee l l l l l 17 eeeee l l l l l 18 eeeee l l l l l 19 eeeee l l l l l 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 { 'L' 100% Lunar Reflection } LLLLLLLLLL 22 LLLLLLLLLL 23 LLLLLLLLLL 24 LLLLLLLLLL 25 LLLLLLLLLL 26 LLLLLLLLLL 27 LLLLLLLLLL 28 LLLLLLLLLL 29 LLLLLLLLLL 20 LLLLLLLLLL 21 LLLLLLLLLL 22 IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions" to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio. OK - It is 'possible' ~ RHF *. (OT) : HAARPing With Telamon : Do We Have Enough Bandwidth ? The Never Ending Lunar echo, Echo. ECHO ! - For God's sake it's not possible. OK - We have your word for that. -ps- For God's Sake : Chill-Out Dude ! This was a Hypothetical Discussion based on the 'potential' for 'possibilities' given the condition of 'what if' where the 'if' beyond both the Scientific and practical limits of the Experiment. Remember - There is an 'if' in the word : "Scient-if-ic" - Didn't you read my examples? Yes But - Maybe I did not understand them in the same the way that you did. - Can't you think at all? thinking, Thinking. THINKING ! - OK - My Trible Redundant System Check Shows That : I Can Think ! - EM waves don't directly interact with each other anyway. Hey Score One For You ! {In FreeSpace} However - I Did Write : IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions" to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio. Once Two Signals are inside a Radio/Recever "It Ain't Free Space" - Think what would the result would be if this luny-tunes idea were true. A Universal Mixed Product RF/EM Environment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe - How about the people that designed the experiment? Maybe 'if' you would first read and attempt to understand -vice- Being So Judgemental : Remember I wrote in this very thread : Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave From: RHF Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:03:28 -0800 (PST) Local: Tues, Jan 22 2008 8:03 am Subject: HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo) http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...46e18812e433e1 *. I 'Trust' to the Fact that the HAARP Scientists are Equal to Rocket Scientists and that : They Do Know What They Are Doing. ~ RHF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_science - Do they have a functioning brain? IMHO - Clearly They Do. - I would say yes! On That We Can Agree. - Do you? On That We Clearly Disagree. - I would say no and that also goes for Billy boy. You Are Entitle To You Opinion. EVEN WHEN YOU ARE WRONG [.] To bad for you that you don't understand. By all means don't take my word for it as you can go read up on the subject. - How embarrassing. Yes - Indeed "How Embarrassing" For You. ~ RHF - You don't get it even after I posted about it? Dang - Telamon - You are getting smarter with every post. - You can go educate yourself but that takes work doesn't it? On this we could agree. Education = Work Work = Acomplishment Acomplishment = Education . . . - So you won't do the work you will instead continue to remain - ignorant either for the reason of ability or laziness but that's - your problem not mine. Yes 'my' Ignorance is 'my' Problem -and- Your Problems are Your Problems : One of Them Being Arguing With 'me'. - So do continue to make foolish posts. Clearly History Repeats Itself : When We Don't Learn From It. -ps- So Do Continue To Make Replies To Same {Foolish Posts}. - They are very entertaining. HEY - SEE THERE I HAVE SOME VALUE :o) -and- THAT IS SOMETHING AFTER-ALL ! - - -- - Telamon - Ventura, California - ~ RHF Twain Harte, California -USA- -and- Oakland, California -USA- |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
On Jan 26, 2:22*am, Kenneth Isham wrote:
Telamon wrote: In article , wrote: In article , says... SNIP In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. *When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". *The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship. What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not "wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as before they overlapped. I found a reference on the web * (http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf) that says it much better than I could. *On page 109 the author states: (Beginning of Quote) "Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same characteristics as before." (End of Quote) SNIP What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly stated in your 'train' analogy). Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. *Thinking back to the train analogy, *the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap. That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap.. Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA -- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for the .75 seconds in question? I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference. Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a vector sum. Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound like interference. - - Telamon: - - I have been reading this thread and wonder how the movement - of Earth compared to the moon would affect the signal? - Wouldn't this also ensure the signal would never interfere - with itself as the signal would always be different location - on the moon due to rotational movement. - - Ken I. - KEN I. - There must be many "Major" and 'minor' Factors : Most likely the Biggest Factor was the Separation {The Distance Between} of the Earth Pulse Sending Site in Alaska and the Lunar Reflection Receiving Site in New Mexico. The HF Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) in Alaska http://k9zw.wordpress.com/2008/01/18...wa-eme-bounce/ and the Long Wavelength Array (LWA) in New Mexico are planning an additional Lunar Echo Experiment for Jan 18-19. WHY - Being in a 'place' where you could Hear both Signals Independently : * Earth Pulse via Skywave {One Path} * Lunar Reflection TransSkyWave (2x Out-and-In) {Other Path} Effectively the Great Distance from Earth-to-Moon 238,857 Miles renders the Variation in the Altitude of the Moon's Surface : the Ups-and-Down to be a Non-Factor. But there is the actual Surface of the Moon itself : Size/Area; Material Composition; Hardness; RF/EM Properties; etc Moon Diameter : 2,160 Miles -and- YES this could be a Factor in the Reflection of Each Earth Pulse as a Series of Independant Events. However - HAARP is a Very Large Array {Antenna} * It Sends Out A Very Focused Signal from at Wide Area * A Large Area of the Moon is Covered by this Signal -if- Not All of the Surface * The Moon is a Very Large Convex Surface that is being used as a Reflector for this Signal. Given the Larger Distances that are involved it may be considered to be a "Flat" Surface. Doing-the-Math : Earth-to-Moon Distance : 238,857 Miles Lunar Orbit : 1.5 Million Miles Moon Diameter : 2,160 Miles Half Lunar Surface Circumferance : 3391 Miles Therefore the Half-of-the-Surface of the Moon being used as a Reflector is 'only' about One (1°) Degree-of-Arc with respect to the Earth as being the center of it's Orbit. Thus given it's relative small Half-Surface Size and Distance from the Earth it can also be considered a "Point Source" Target and Reflector. TBL - To me it all boils down to : How Good Is "The Entire Half-Surface" of the Moon as a Radio Frequency Signal Reflector for the Frequencies being Transmitted. Individual Pulse Time versus the Earth and Moon Movements Times : * Individual Earth Pulse Time Two Seconds (2") * Earth Rotation 24 Hours ~ 86,400 Seconds [1:43,200] * Lunar Rotation 28 Days ~ 2.42 Million Seconds [1:1.21M] Clearly the Movement of both the Earth and the Moon in just the Two Seconds (2") of the Individual Earth Pulse is NOT a Significant Factor. However -IF- It were you could 'Fractionalize' the Two Seconds (2") of an Individual Earth Pulse into 200, 2000, etc Discrete Parts and then Evaluate each Discrete Part and Add them all back together again to have something [some number*}. * Most Likely the Exact Number of . . . . . . . . . . Angels That Can Fit-On-To-The Head-of-a-Pin. :o) i am all pulsed out and going lunar ~ RHF |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article 479b0a50@kcnews01, says...
Telamon wrote: In article , wrote: In article , says... SNIP In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship. What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not "wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as before they overlapped. I found a reference on the web (http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf) that says it much better than I could. On page 109 the author states: (Beginning of Quote) "Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same characteristics as before." (End of Quote) SNIP What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly stated in your 'train' analogy). Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. Thinking back to the train analogy, the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap. That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap. Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA -- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for the .75 seconds in question? I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference. Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a vector sum. Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound like interference. Interesting point. It would seem that might be the case, at least in theory. Sort of like the Young's double slit experiment with a single monochromatic light source passing through two slits and interacting to create bands of constructive and destructive interference. I wonder if in practice though if Doppler and other effects might alter the frequency enough so that it would still sound like interference at the receiver. That two slit experiment however would also tend to indicate that EM waves do interact in space regardless if there is an antenna around or not. Perhaps the antenna is only the vehicle for capturing the interaction and not required for the actual interaction. Or perhaps it is only a matter of semantics. http://www.studyphysics.ca/newnotes/..._light/chp1719 _light/lesson58.htm Telamon: I have been reading this thread and wonder how the movement of Earth compared to the moon would affect the signal? Wouldn't this also ensure the signal would never interfere with itself as the signal would always be different location on the moon due to rotational movement. Ken I. I think at the HF frequencies of HAARP the beam width is much too wide at those distances to focus on one spot. That, along with the fact the angular movement is so small compared to the speed of the radio wave, would seem to preclude that from happening. We have sure batted this topic around enough :-). |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
In article ,
wrote: In article 479b0a50@kcnews01, says... Telamon wrote: In article , wrote: In article , says... SNIP In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted signal? The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to represent a wave and their properties are very different. For example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess. That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart, the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other with no harm done to either wave. I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship. What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not "wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as before they overlapped. I found a reference on the web (http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf) that says it much better than I could. On page 109 the author states: (Beginning of Quote) "Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same characteristics as before." (End of Quote) SNIP What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly stated in your 'train' analogy). Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. Thinking back to the train analogy, the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap. That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap. Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA -- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for the .75 seconds in question? I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference. Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a vector sum. Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound like interference. Interesting point. It would seem that might be the case, at least in theory. Sort of like the Young's double slit experiment with a single monochromatic light source passing through two slits and interacting to create bands of constructive and destructive interference. I wonder if in practice though if Doppler and other effects might alter the frequency enough so that it would still sound like interference at the receiver. That two slit experiment however would also tend to indicate that EM waves do interact in space regardless if there is an antenna around or not. Perhaps the antenna is only the vehicle for capturing the interaction and not required for the actual interaction. Or perhaps it is only a matter of semantics. http://www.studyphysics.ca/newnotes/..._light/chp1719 _light/lesson58.htm What is happening here is that the two waves of varying phase fall upon a different medium like white paper that causes them to interact and readmit a light level (an output) according to the phase result of the two incoming wave inputs. The antenna and white paper perform the same function allowing the EM waves of different phase to interact. I have been reading this thread and wonder how the movement of Earth compared to the moon would affect the signal? Wouldn't this also ensure the signal would never interfere with itself as the signal would always be different location on the moon due to rotational movement. I think at the HF frequencies of HAARP the beam width is much too wide at those distances to focus on one spot. That, along with the fact the angular movement is so small compared to the speed of the radio wave, would seem to preclude that from happening. We have sure batted this topic around enough :-). The EM waves will not interact with each other in space. Can you imagine the chaos that would result on earth if this were to occur with all the different EM waves at your location nothing would be receivable. You can see this point right? If this were not true then any medium could only ever carry one signal at a time light or radio both being EM waves. What happens if there is an antenna that picks up the forward and reflected signals then defines or creates a different environment of a specific local vector sum of the resulting fields in the elements at that point in space. This vector sum being the interaction in the antenna where the forward and reverse direction signals would either add or subtract according to the phase relationship at the antenna terminals. You would then sample the result a measurement device. If you left the transmitter on you would create by superposition a standing wave between the earth and moon and this could be detected with an antenna that would pick up both as it moved along between the earth and moon. This is no different that forward and reflected waves in any transmission environment. Don't lose sight that the antenna has to pick up both signals for them to mix. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo
On Jan 19, 11:37*am, "Pipester" wrote:
I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player. *This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode with a portable mp3 player recording it http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0 Enjoy *Rory Start your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint rights. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Make money with your own website. Keep 100% of all profits. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn tons of cash online selling ebooks/software. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 The best online income opportunity. Operate your own ebusiness. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 Earn big money by selling ebooks/software with your own website. Keep all profits for yourself. http://www.fastdatacash.com/in.php?ix=1959 |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
Telamon wrote:
In article , Billy Burpelson wrote: Telamon wrote: Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist at the same time anywhere on the earth? Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay attention. Yes I understand what you wrote loser and I'm doing my best to explain that your thinking is incorrect. I'm the second person tell you this. I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the -same- time 'anywhere on earth'. I didn't say you did. I was trying to give you the bigger picture. What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit occured. OK you misunderstood what I wrote, which is these EM waves can mix as you think in a antenna in the part of space where the wave going to the moon exists in the same space time as the reflected signal. Without the antenna these waves do not interact. With the antenna they do interact. Is that redundant enough for you? Logically, since no antennas exist in this area of space time your idle speculation is moot. Now you have had two people explain this to you so if this does not sink into your very dense skull give up. Let me explain something else to you O'clueless wonder and that's if you don't get it your problem not mine. A basic web search on wave propagation theory says *nothing* about needing an antenna for the signals to add or cancel. HSD gets it; RHF gets it, but you don't seem to get it. Here are a few references that may help you: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference Theory The principle of superposition of waves states that the resultant displacement at a point is equal to the vector sum of the displacements of different waves at that point. If a crest of a wave meets a crest of another wave at the same point then the crests interfere constructively and the resultant wave amplitude is greater. If a crest of a wave meets a trough of another wave then they interfere destructively, and the overall amplitude is decreased. [please note: it just says 'if they meet'. Nothing about needing an antenna.] Characteristics All waves have common behavior under a number of standard situations. All waves can experience the following: * Reflection - wave direction change from hitting a reflective surface * Interference - superposition of two waves that come into contact with each other (collide) [Please note it says nothing about colliding in an antenna] from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle First version of the superposition principle * The phenomenon of interference between waves is based on the superposition principle. Waves are usually described by variations in some parameter through space and time (for example, height in a water wave, pressure in a sound wave, or the electromagnetic field in a light wave). The superposition principle says that the net variation in that parameter caused by two or more waves traversing the same space, is the sum of the variations of that parameter which would have been produced by the individual waves separately. (For waves described by vector fields, such as electromagnetic waves, the sum is a vector sum.) In some cases, the summed variation has a smaller amplitude than the component variations; this is called destructive interference. Other times, the summed variation will have a bigger amplitude than any of the components individually; this is called constructive interference. [Again, please note that -nothing- is said about requiring an antenna.] from http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/se...glossary.shtml Interference. Interfering. Compare with constructive interference and destructive interference. The amplitudes of waves moving into the same region of space add to produce a single resultant wave. The resulting wave can have higher or lower amplitude than the component waves. See constructive interference* and destructive interference*. [Again, please note that they refer to 'same region of space', and say nothing of requiring an antenna] Nothing in wave theory says an 'antenna' is required for interference to occur. Finally, I originated a polite, on-topic post. You responded with vulgarity, name-calling and rudeness. Hopefully, you will eventually awaken to the fact that your obnoxious behavior hurts no one but yourself and serves only to illustrate your character (or lack thereof). |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
Telamon wrote:
What is happening here is that the two waves of varying phase fall upon The EM waves will not interact with each other in space. Can you imagine the chaos that would result on earth if this were to occur with all the different EM waves at your location nothing would be receivable. You can see this point right? -You- miss the point, right? From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference Interference is the addition (superposition) of two or more waves that results in a new wave pattern. As most commonly used, the term interference usually refers to the interaction of waves which are correlated or coherent with each other, either because they come from the same source or because they have the same or nearly the same frequency. Please carefully re-read the part that says: "because they have the same or nearly the same frequency". So, yes, that is why we experience QRM (interference) on earth: because *some* signals are at the same or nearly the same frequency and that is why everything else doesn't interfere with everything else -- because they are *different* frequencies. No antenna needed! |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
Billy Burpelson wrote:
What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit occured. Your error is assuming that echo is modified by the incident wave. The waves pass by each other without interacting. When you try to observe the waves, using any method, you get the sum of the two signals. So anywhere they 'overlap' you will see interference. This is superposition. If you look at a point where there is no overlap, you only see one signal. Then you observe no interference. |
HAARP What Bandwidth? (was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
Billy Burpelson wrote: What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit occured. craigm wrote: Your error is assuming that echo is modified by the incident wave. The waves pass by each other without interacting. You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Above, you say they will "pass by each other without interacting". Below, you say "anywhere they 'overlap' you *will* see interference". [emphasis added]. When you try to observe the waves, using any method, you get the sum of the two signals. So anywhere they 'overlap' you will see interference. This is superposition. I agree -- and if you read what I said above (or tried to say) was addressing the overlap, which due to superposition, will either constructively or destructively add; in either case, the 'overlap' portion of the echo (leading edge) -will- be modified (or degraded or interfered with, however you want to look at it) by the trailing edge of the incident signal, and that portion of the echo, when received on earth, will be perceived as such. Aren't we really saying the same thing??? |
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