On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:09:17 +0000, D Peter Maus wrote:

That may be true. I know, however, in my circles of
colleagues/friends, only 1 in 3 has health insurance, and those that do
not have it, do not want it. The number nationwide may be surprising.
But it's a number that's not reported.

All of your points about those who want health insurance are
valid. And I'm not arguing with any of them. You are correct.

My point is that to claim everyone who is not insured is in
crisis is disingenuous. If not misleading.

You guys must be fabulously wealthy to take a risk like that. A broken
leg can cost five figures these days.

Burpelson Air Force Base?
How I learned to stop worrying,,,,,,

I have Physicians Mutual insurance.If I need to go to a hospital I will
go to www.stdom.com
I don't trust the VA center.
cuhulin

Dave wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:09:17 +0000, D Peter Maus wrote:

That may be true. I know, however, in my circles of
colleagues/friends, only 1 in 3 has health insurance, and those that do
not have it, do not want it. The number nationwide may be surprising.
But it's a number that's not reported.

All of your points about those who want health insurance are
valid. And I'm not arguing with any of them. You are correct.

My point is that to claim everyone who is not insured is in
crisis is disingenuous. If not misleading.

You guys must be fabulously wealthy to take a risk like that. A broken
leg can cost five figures these days.


Six.

D Peter Maus wrote:

I know, however, in my circles of colleagues/friends, only 1 in 3 has
health insurance, and those that do not have it, do not want it.

Fair enough...but could you please elaborate.

*WHY* "don't they want it"? I presume they are around your (retirement)
age. Are they *all* -exceptionally- healthy? Are they *all*
-exceptionally- wealthy?

As age and illness creeps up on them (as it does to 98% of all us), what
will they do the day they become sick? What will YOU do if, heaven
forbid, you have an accident with your motorcycle? Write a check? Go to
the ER and expect others to pay for them? Ask to be set out on the curb
to die? Is it remotely possible that some of them can't afford it and
are too ashamed to admit it? Please elaborate as to why they don't
have/"don't want" insurance.


It truly seems a bit of a stretch to extrapolate you and your 3 buddies
to the rest of the 47 million.

Billy Burpelson wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:

I know, however, in my circles of colleagues/friends, only 1 in 3 has
health insurance, and those that do not have it, do not want it.

Fair enough...but could you please elaborate.

*WHY* "don't they want it"? I presume they are around your (retirement)
age. Are they *all* -exceptionally- healthy? Are they *all*
-exceptionally- wealthy?

None of the above. They, like myself, are tired of paying more
into the system than they receive in benefits, of getting cut rate,
assembly line services in health issues that require sophisticated
care.

A previous post mentioned that a broken leg can cost 5 figures,
today. Actually, it's closer to 6, all told. That's if you let
insurance pay the bills.

In 1986, I was hit by a car. You want to talk about a broken leg?
That was only the beginning. Compression fracture of the T-6
verteba, nerve damage, 40 surgeries, intensive care.

From the minute they loaded me into the ambulance, the clock
started running. We didn't even KNOW about the spinal injury because
the bean counters at the insurance desk at the hospital made
executive decisions based on insurance data. That surfaced later
under a much different specification of care.

I had someone call my attorney, while waiting for admission to
the trauma room. I guaranteed the bill myself, to be paid out of a
special savings account I'd been feeding for years for this purpose,
forgoing entirely insurance.

At the time of my release, I had more than $100,000 in medical
bills. My attorney went over them and we found more than $30,000 in
billing for services that were never rendered, or rendered to
another patient, or simply made up.

I paid the bill out of the account I'd created for that purpose
and on an installment plan for a portion.

Had I had insurance, it's likely I'd not be able to walk, today.
Or given the nature of the spinal injury, been paralyzed.

As it is, I do ok. I walk, bowl, play ball. I have some loss of
utility in the outer fingers of each hand, which can be improved
with daily exercises.

I am neither wealthy, nor exceptionally healthy. I live in a
modest house. I spend my days enjoying my work and my hobbies, and
at night I watch TV with my dog. Or spend time with someone else. No
one in my circle are any different. There is no great wealth here.
Only a decision that we'd rather get the services we pay for, rather
than take the substandard care give us. We all have different
solutions, but the address of the problem remains.

And we are not alone. How many millions of 'healthcare savings
accounts' have been created since then by individuals realizing that
insurance is not the solution for them. I did it before there was a
government sponsored, tax sheltered healthcare savings account. So
did many of my friends.

We just chose a better path.

Be clear on this--I'm not saying that we shouldn't have health
care insurance. For some, for those who wish it, they should have
it. I'm just opposed to paying for both my health care, and your
insurance.

And this 'everybody should be in the pool' nonsense, is just
that--nonsense.





It truly seems a bit of a stretch to extrapolate you and your 3 buddies
to the rest of the 47 million.

Which, if you'll read more closely, I didn't do. I didn't claim
anything for 47 million. I did, however claim that number is
misleading because it only includes those who don't have health
insurance. It doesn't make account for those who do not wish it.
And to forestall any misunderstandings, I just said that of my
circle, 1 in 3 has health insurance...that's 1 person out of every
3. I can point to 12 of us who don't have, and don't want, health
insurance.

And that we're not alone.

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:02:53 -0400, Billy Burpelson
wrote:


D Peter Maus wrote:

I don't have health insurance. I don't want it.

I can name 3 of my colleagues who don't have it, either. And
don't want it.

Art Harris wrote:

Perhaps you are very well off and can write a check for whatever
medical expenses you need.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps you don't expect to have any
serious health issues.

Right...just like the people that don't bother with a will because they
never expect to die.

But for most middle-class Americans, a serious illness or injury to
themselves or a family member could wipe them out financially if they
did not have health insurance.

Yes Art, this is quite true. Medical expenses have gone through the
roof. I recently had two relatives and a friend requiring medical care,
arthroscopic knee surgery, appendectomy and quadruple bypass. The prices
for these services ranged from a low of $18,500 to a little over $100,000.

$100, 000 for a quad bypass is a good deal! My heart attack and
stents were about $78,000; required more stents 16 months later at
another $63,000. Also, about $10,000 for a cardiac rehab program and
nearly a car payment a month for meds. Now here's where it's kinda
interesting. Those are the 'full billing prices' - my insurer, a PPO,
has 'negotiated rates' with the providers which are around a third or
so of the 'full billing prices.' I believe the premise by the health
care provider is that they end up 'settling' on so many bills at an
amount less than normal rate that they set up these guaranteed rates
to maintain cash flow and not have to take many months or longer in
trying to collect payments. Now, without insurance I would be liable
for the full amount and have to dicker with the hospital and show that
I don't have the means to pay and go to mediation to obtain a lower
billing rate. It would've wiped me out.

In short, healthcare is a complex issue that cannot be fully and
adequately addressed by campaing slogans.


Many families (but not all) simply do not have that much money on hand.
The ones who do have that much money didn't get that wealthy by being
stupid and 'going naked' (without insurance). Excluding the wealthy, the
savings rate for this country is a -negative- one or two percent (which
is to say, most have -no- savings and are dipping into whatever equity
they can scrape up).

There may be a few quirky or eccentric individuals that indeed do not
want medical insurance, but given their druthers, I think a LARGE
portion of people would prefer to have it.

I make a good salary, but I wouldn't
risk my family's well-being by not having health insurance.

Amen...and just speculation, but maybe the other poster doesn't have a
family to worry about.

On Aug 27, 5:25*pm, wrote:
Burpelson Air Force Base?
How I learned to stop worrying,,,,,,

I have Physicians Mutual insurance.If I need to go to a hospital I will
go to * *www.stdom.com

- I don't trust the VA center.
- cuhulin

Since the US Congress is only Funding ~55%
of the true cost of US Veterans Health Care :
Cuhulin you are wise not to 'trust' the VA.

The US Congress is now funding more Health
Care of Illegal Alien Invaders from Mexico then
for our US Veterans.

There should be a 50% Tax on All Remittances
(Cash/Wired) to Mexico to Pay for the Actual Cost
of Health Care of Illegal Alien Invaders from Mexico.

~ RHF

On Aug 27, 7:20*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:02:53 -0400, Billy Burpelson





wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:

* *I don't have health insurance. I don't want it.

* *I can name 3 of my colleagues who don't have it, either. And
don't want it.

Art Harris wrote:

Perhaps you are very well off and can write a check for whatever
medical expenses you need.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps you don't expect to have any
serious health issues.

Right...just like the people that don't bother with a will because they
never expect to die.

But for most middle-class Americans, a serious illness or injury to
themselves or a family member could wipe them out financially if they
did not have health insurance.

Yes Art, this is quite true. Medical expenses have gone through the
roof. I recently had two relatives and a friend requiring medical care,
arthroscopic knee surgery, appendectomy and quadruple bypass. The prices
for these services ranged from a low of $18,500 to a little over $100,000.

"Brenda Ann" wrote:
Problem is, many, if not most, who DO have insurance, are STILL in a
treatment crisis. *I'm with YOU on the bean counters. *There has to be a way
to guarantee medical treatment to the entire population in the greatest
country in the world WITHOUT some CPA deciding which treatment you "need"..


You are exactly right. When Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs)
came into existence during the Nixon administration, health care took
a turn for the worse. Since then, "managed care" with an emphasis on
increasing profits by denying treatment to sick patients has been a
major problem.

I remember talking to my doctor about this several years ago. He
admitted that he was under pressure from HMOs not to refer too many
patients to specialists, etc. If he didn't toe the line, he could be
dropped as a "participating doctor."

A government health care system similar to Medicare would reduce costs
and guarantee coverage to all citizens.

Art Harris

Art Harris wrote:
"Brenda Ann" wrote:
Problem is, many, if not most, who DO have insurance, are STILL in a
treatment crisis. I'm with YOU on the bean counters. There has to be a way
to guarantee medical treatment to the entire population in the greatest
country in the world WITHOUT some CPA deciding which treatment you "need".


You are exactly right. When Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs)
came into existence during the Nixon administration, health care took
a turn for the worse. Since then, "managed care" with an emphasis on
increasing profits by denying treatment to sick patients has been a
major problem.

I remember talking to my doctor about this several years ago. He
admitted that he was under pressure from HMOs not to refer too many
patients to specialists, etc. If he didn't toe the line, he could be
dropped as a "participating doctor."

A government health care system similar to Medicare would reduce costs
and guarantee coverage to all citizens.

Art Harris
Thanks for being rational.