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ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... Problem was, people didn't like stereo enough to buy another radio. And it's not as if the radios were real expensive. They wouldn't buy four AM stereo standards. They wouldn't buy even one. By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening. There are still stations playing music on AM. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... Problem was, people didn't like stereo enough to buy another radio. And it's not as if the radios were real expensive. They wouldn't buy four AM stereo standards. They wouldn't buy even one. By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening. There are still stations playing music on AM. Keyword: still. Most AMs are talk based, and all the decently rated ones are. A few exceptions, on analysis, make the rule; those with music in rated markets are either ethnic (like the Farsi, Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese language stations in the LA metro. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
It's used on almost all analog broadcasting. Very little on Iboc. Wrong. HD signals are processed (the right term) for consistency and a stable dynamic range. Sorry to correct you Eduardo....most of the stations I have dealing with are currently not (or barely) processing their IBOC signals. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
Actually, people didn't care much about FM stereo, either. FM stereo didn't reach mass market appeal until it was almost a give-away with the radio. That's what will happen with HD. Until it starts being included in the next radio people will purchase, or in the next car they buy. That $50 licensing fee for each chipset will keep a lot of people from EVER buying an IBOC receiver. They will get them included in a car radio they will buy in the near future. They won't have to decide to buy one. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"A Browne" wrote in message ... It's used on almost all analog broadcasting. Very little on Iboc. Wrong. HD signals are processed (the right term) for consistency and a stable dynamic range. Sorry to correct you Eduardo....most of the stations I have dealing with are currently not (or barely) processing their IBOC signals. And all that I have seen have either the Omnia or Optimod digital versions. First, the differing levels of different source materials demands that a degree of leveling be applied just for consistency. Then, we have to recognize that the listening environment, particularly in vehicles, is noisy and the dynamic range has to be brought up to avoid lower level passages becoming masked in ambient noise. While clipping and severe peak limiting are not needed, avoidance of occasional high excursions also improves the listening experience. I'd love to know of any HD-1 signals that are not processed. Most of us know that in-car listening is subject to dropouts beyond about the 64 dbu contour, and having the analog and digital signals similarly processed is important. Plus, lots of content was originally analog, and needs a degree of control. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"A Browne" wrote in message ... Actually, people didn't care much about FM stereo, either. FM stereo didn't reach mass market appeal until it was almost a give-away with the radio. That's what will happen with HD. Until it starts being included in the next radio people will purchase, or in the next car they buy. That $50 licensing fee for each chipset will keep a lot of people from EVER buying an IBOC receiver. They will get them included in a car radio they will buy in the near future. They won't have to decide to buy one. As they say in Spain, "when frogs dance flamenco." Mass market car manufacturers will not include HD until there is a huge demand, which is not present today. Otherwise, car manufacturers look for a payback, such as commissions or a cut of fees, like the satellite folks give them. Since HD is a free radio product, there is no fee to share and there will be, for the moment, no HD radios in Fords and Chevys and Camrys. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... Problem was, people didn't like stereo enough to buy another radio. And it's not as if the radios were real expensive. They wouldn't buy four AM stereo standards. They wouldn't buy even one. By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening. There are still stations playing music on AM. Keyword: still. Most AMs are talk based, and all the decently rated ones are. A few exceptions, on analysis, make the rule; those with music in rated markets are either ethnic (like the Farsi, Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese language stations in the LA metro. And like any other topic we disagree on I just happen to have one of those exceptions about 5 miles away from myself, in english, playing rock and roll music. Since this is the case for myself I could extrapolate this to the majority of towns in this country. That would add up to many more music station then you allow for. I'll bet if I took the trouble to spin the dial looking for more I could get maybe a handful buy you would come back and say I could not hear them. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: Keyword: still. Most AMs are talk based, and all the decently rated ones are. A few exceptions, on analysis, make the rule; those with music in rated markets are either ethnic (like the Farsi, Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese language stations in the LA metro. And like any other topic we disagree on I just happen to have one of those exceptions about 5 miles away from myself, in english, playing rock and roll music. Since this is the case for myself I could extrapolate this to the majority of towns in this country. That would add up to many more music station then you allow for. Try re-reading the paragraph above your ill-reasoned one. I said "decently rated" quite clearly. KVEN is rated 39th in the market in 25-54 year old listeners (what in the industry are called the "sales demos") and is 27th in listeners of all ages (12+ being the term used for that.). It's billings have fallen by more than half since the year 2000, and currently are about 10% of the level attained by the market's leading billers, KCAQ, KHAY and KXLM. In fact, most places in the US don't have much music on AM unless, as I said, it is in Farsi or Russian or Polish, to name three... or the station is one of several forms of Gospel that have mostly 55 and over listeners. I'll bet if I took the trouble to spin the dial looking for more I could get maybe a handful buy you would come back and say I could not hear them. No, I would say, as I always have, that what you may pick up on your $5000 radio does not have the signal strength, clarity and consistency the average listener seeks. There are probably hundreds or relatively easy out of market AM signals you can get, between daytime and night. Listeners only pick the ones that have monster signals, as proven by decades of research. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... And like any other topic we disagree on I just happen to have one of those exceptions about 5 miles away from myself, in english, playing rock and roll music. Since this is the case for myself I could extrapolate this to the majority of towns in this country. That would add up to many more music station then you allow for. Portland, OR 1480 KBMS (Vancouver, WA) Urban Contemporary 1550 KKAD (Vancouver, WA) Nostalgia Salem, OR 1490 KBZY Oldies Eugene, OR 840 KKNX Oldies Seaside, OR 840 KSWB Oldies Waldport, OR 820 KORC Nostalgia Longview, WA 1270 KBAM Country 1400 KEDO Oldies 1490 KLOG Classic Hits Centralia, WA 1420 KITI Oldies Seattle, WA 660 KAPS Country 880 KIXI Nostalgia 1420 KRIZ (Renton, WA) Rhythmic Oldies 1620 KYIZ (Renton, WA) Urban Contemporary Yakima, WA 1460 KUTI Country Grand Coulee, WA 1490 KEYG Country Spokane, WA 630 KTRW Nostalgia 1050 KEYF Nostalgia Coeur D Alene, ID 1080 KVNI Oldies Wallace, ID 620 KWAL Country Orofino, ID 1300 KLER Country Lewiston, ID 1350 KRLC Country Boise, ID 670 KBOI Jazz 1140 KGEM Nostalgia 1490 KCID (Caldwell, ID) Oldies Pocatello, ID 790 KBRV (Soda Springs, ID) Country 1290 KOUU Country |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"A Browne" wrote in message ... AM HD is stereo. AM had stereo first, way back in the past. It was so good, the FCC approved first one, then FOUR different methods for stereo modulation. Holy cats! The FCC actually thought there might be enough consumer demand to support four different AM stereo plans. The broadcasters and manufacturers all jumped in, as well. Broadcaster's weren't "on board" with the marketplace aspect of picking a standard. Yet there were different AM stereo standards being broadcast. If the broadcasters believed that one system was superior to the others, than that would have decided the issue for the FCC. The "let the marketplace decide the stereo standard" was one mistake that the FCC didn't make with HD. They named a standard, and all the brodcasters are on board with the same standard. HD is ibiquity's copyrighted term. If we consider HD to mean IBOC, Kahn's CAM-D system is supposed to be on the air right now. http://www.kdylam.com/camd.htm Don't ask me where to buy a CAM-D receiver, though. I'm sure they are even less popular than HD receivers. With no standard chosen, there was no impetus for the public to buy one standard over another, nor impetus for manufacturers to start making one standard over another....in any real sense. The impetus would have been the desirability to upgrade to stereo. A person would buy a radio to match the system broadcast by a favorite station or stations. Somebody with different favorites would have to buy different radios or a multimode radio. Such are the sacrifices we make for the things we really like. Problem was, people didn't like stereo enough to buy another radio. And it's not as if the radios were real expensive. They wouldn't buy four AM stereo standards. They wouldn't buy even one. They WOULD buy one...IF they knew *which* of the four was the one to buy! So they waited....and did nothing. Didn't the stations say which AM stereo system they were using? Didn't they tell people where to get radios? Didn't stores know which radios to sell? There was some stupidity in this, but not that much. Actually, people didn't care much about FM stereo, either. FM stereo didn't reach mass market appeal until it was almost a give-away with the radio. That's what will happen with HD. Until it starts being included in the next radio people will purchase, or in the next car they buy. Right. Do you think the C-Quam car radio thing had anything to do with Motorola? There might be a lesson there for HD radio. Give it away and maybe people will listen. But I really doubt ibiquity will give up licensing fees on their patents and copyrights. Well, Volvo is making all their 2009's include HD as standard equipment. If ibiqity is smart, they'll try to get HD radios in Fords and Chevys and Toyotas. If the really want to sell radios, they will go for the $15.00 clock radio market. Other manufacturers are including it as an option, and I'm sure some people will buy their cars off the lot with it included without them having to chose it specifically. Lucky for Glenn, if he ever does start living in the past, he can look back at a lifetime as an accomplished DXer and radio broadcaster. I'm sure his kids will be impressed. I'm sure they are. Frank Dresser |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"David Eduardo" wrote in message ... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... Problem was, people didn't like stereo enough to buy another radio. And it's not as if the radios were real expensive. They wouldn't buy four AM stereo standards. They wouldn't buy even one. By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening. But there were still people listening to music on AM, probably more than are listening to HD radio right now. I can understand the enthusiasm people had for AM stereo back then. AM stereo might have kept radio as we then knew it alive. Actually, people didn't care much about FM stereo, either. FM stereo didn't reach mass market appeal until it was almost a give-away with the radio. Untrue. FM Stereo was introduced in about 1961, and the decade before had seen total FM stations go from over 1000 in 1950 to around 500 in 1960. I didn't mean FM radio stations. I meant FM recievers. When FM began it's turnaround around 1970 or so, most of the FM receivers were mono. The dominance of FM stereo receivers didn't happen until the price difference was small. What changed FM was not the technology, but the FCC's 1967 ban on FM simulcasts with a parent AM station. It was the diversity of formats that came out of this that sold FM. On this we agree. The FM turnaround was driven by content. Frank Dresser |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... With no standard chosen, there was no impetus for the public to buy one standard over another, nor impetus for manufacturers to start making one standard over another....in any real sense. The impetus would have been the desirability to upgrade to stereo. A person would buy a radio to match the system broadcast by a favorite station or stations. Somebody with different favorites would have to buy different radios or a multimode radio. Such are the sacrifices we make for the things we really like. All anyone had to do was buy a Sony radio.. they received all the systems, and had damn fine sound. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Brenda Ann" wrote in message ... "Telamon" wrote in message ... And like any other topic we disagree on I just happen to have one of those exceptions about 5 miles away from myself, in english, playing rock and roll music. Since this is the case for myself I could extrapolate this to the majority of towns in this country. That would add up to many more music station then you allow for. Again, another poster misses the point: listenership. Those stations in rated markets have zero or ground clutter ratings, which means that, whatever they are doing, nearly nobody listens to it. My point is that AM is not a music medium, and has not been since the 80's, which is why the muddled and befuddled effort to do AM stereo back then also failed. Portland, OR 1480 KBMS (Vancouver, WA) Urban Contemporary 1550 KKAD (Vancouver, WA) Nostalgia Salem, OR 1490 KBZY Oldies Eugene, OR 840 KKNX Oldies Seaside, OR 840 KSWB Oldies Waldport, OR 820 KORC Nostalgia Longview, WA 1270 KBAM Country 1400 KEDO Oldies 1490 KLOG Classic Hits Centralia, WA 1420 KITI Oldies Seattle, WA 660 KAPS Country 880 KIXI Nostalgia 1420 KRIZ (Renton, WA) Rhythmic Oldies 1620 KYIZ (Renton, WA) Urban Contemporary Yakima, WA 1460 KUTI Country Grand Coulee, WA 1490 KEYG Country Spokane, WA 630 KTRW Nostalgia 1050 KEYF Nostalgia Coeur D Alene, ID 1080 KVNI Oldies Wallace, ID 620 KWAL Country Orofino, ID 1300 KLER Country Lewiston, ID 1350 KRLC Country Boise, ID 670 KBOI Jazz 1140 KGEM Nostalgia 1490 KCID (Caldwell, ID) Oldies Pocatello, ID 790 KBRV (Soda Springs, ID) Country 1290 KOUU Country |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening. But there were still people listening to music on AM, probably more than are listening to HD radio right now. I can understand the enthusiasm people had for AM stereo back then. AM stereo might have kept radio as we then knew it alive. By the time the Motorola system became the standard, AM station owners were mostly concerned with finding a way to program their AMs so as to stop losing audience. That meant an alternative to anything being done on FM. Add to that the urban sprawl of American cities, which were growing out of the coverage areas of most of the stations licenced to them. So few AM stations could compete with the coverage and quality of the better FM allocations that they were forced to do niche formats, religion, gospel (now a big FM format in many markets) and ethnic formats. When you consider that in the top 100 markets, there is an average of only two viable AM signals, you can understand that a number of factors came together in a three decade long perfect storm that has left AM with as little as 9% to 10% of listening in rated markets (Houston 12%, but less than 5% under 45 years of age is a good big market example). Untrue. FM Stereo was introduced in about 1961, and the decade before had seen total FM stations go from over 1000 in 1950 to around 500 in 1960. I didn't mean FM radio stations. I meant FM recievers. When FM began it's turnaround around 1970 or so, most of the FM receivers were mono. Most of FM listening is mono even today. Few clock radios, kitchen radios, desk radios, shop radios are stereo. And the effects of noise make in care stereo minimal at most driving speeds. The dominance of FM stereo receivers didn't happen until the price difference was small. FM did not start gaining on AM because of stereo. It was because the FCC, in '67, mandated an end to simulcasting and many new format options came on the air. But it took a full decade for FM to achieve listening parity... which is why we say that HD is a long, long term process. And it is way to late to save AM now that owners are moving the "good" formats to FM because the AM listener base is so old they can't sell advertising. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: Keyword: still. Most AMs are talk based, and all the decently rated ones are. A few exceptions, on analysis, make the rule; those with music in rated markets are either ethnic (like the Farsi, Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese language stations in the LA metro. And like any other topic we disagree on I just happen to have one of those exceptions about 5 miles away from myself, in english, playing rock and roll music. Since this is the case for myself I could extrapolate this to the majority of towns in this country. That would add up to many more music station then you allow for. Try re-reading the paragraph above your ill-reasoned one. I said "decently rated" quite clearly. KVEN is rated 39th in the market in 25-54 year old listeners (what in the industry are called the "sales demos") and is 27th in listeners of all ages (12+ being the term used for that.). It's billings have fallen by more than half since the year 2000, and currently are about 10% of the level attained by the market's leading billers, KCAQ, KHAY and KXLM. I don't need to reread it master of BS. You have this false notion that there are only like 2 stations that have any signal in a market, which of course is BS. I get around 13 stations over S9 where I live 60 miles north of LA and of course there are another dozen that put in a decent relatively noise fee signal on a portable most places. In fact, most places in the US don't have much music on AM unless, as I said, it is in Farsi or Russian or Polish, to name three... or the station is one of several forms of Gospel that have mostly 55 and over listeners. I don't believe it. I'll bet if I took the trouble to spin the dial looking for more I could get maybe a handful buy you would come back and say I could not hear them. No, I would say, as I always have, that what you may pick up on your $5000 radio does not have the signal strength, clarity and consistency the average listener seeks. There are probably hundreds or relatively easy out of market AM signals you can get, between daytime and night. Listeners only pick the ones that have monster signals, as proven by decades of research. This is part of your BS story. I just used the table radios for S meter readings and the portable for listening. Over a dozen come in noise free on the portable. Actually almost 2 dozen come in noise free. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... By the time in the early 80's when a standard, CQuam, arrose, AM was no longer a music medium and had less than 40% of all listening. But there were still people listening to music on AM, probably more than are listening to HD radio right now. I can understand the enthusiasm people had for AM stereo back then. AM stereo might have kept radio as we then knew it alive. By the time the Motorola system became the standard, AM station owners were mostly concerned with finding a way to program their AMs so as to stop losing audience. That meant an alternative to anything being done on FM. Add to that the urban sprawl of American cities, which were growing out of the coverage areas of most of the stations licenced to them. So few AM stations could compete with the coverage and quality of the better FM allocations that they were forced to do niche formats, religion, gospel (now a big FM format in many markets) and ethnic formats. When you consider that in the top 100 markets, there is an average of only two viable AM signals, you can understand that a number of factors came together in a three decade long perfect storm that has left AM with as little as 9% to 10% of listening in rated markets (Houston 12%, but less than 5% under 45 years of age is a good big market example). Untrue. FM Stereo was introduced in about 1961, and the decade before had seen total FM stations go from over 1000 in 1950 to around 500 in 1960. I didn't mean FM radio stations. I meant FM recievers. When FM began it's turnaround around 1970 or so, most of the FM receivers were mono. Most of FM listening is mono even today. Few clock radios, kitchen radios, desk radios, shop radios are stereo. And the effects of noise make in care stereo minimal at most driving speeds. SNIP You are so full of it. I enjoy FM stereo in the car all the time. Noise is only a problem with the windows down. You probably need to buy a better car with a decent radio in it instead of one with that HD crap radio. I've owned one radio that was FM mono for the work cubicle where I wanted it small and simple as possible. I didn't want to use earphones so I kept the volume down to where it was indiscernible the next cube over. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: Try re-reading the paragraph above your ill-reasoned one. I said "decently rated" quite clearly. KVEN is rated 39th in the market in 25-54 year old listeners (what in the industry are called the "sales demos") and is 27th in listeners of all ages (12+ being the term used for that.). It's billings have fallen by more than half since the year 2000, and currently are about 10% of the level attained by the market's leading billers, KCAQ, KHAY and KXLM. I don't need to reread it master of BS. You have this false notion that there are only like 2 stations that have any signal in a market, which of course is BS. No, I have the proof, as does any other subscriber to Arbitron, that people will not listen to weak signals that are subject to noise, interference or difficult to tune in. Anyway, you are obfuscating. I clearly said that AM stations with any appreciable ratings are not playing music. You went off on an unrelated and irrelevant tangent. I get around 13 stations over S9 where I live 60 miles north of LA and of course there are another dozen that put in a decent relatively noise fee signal on a portable most places. But most of the ones that have a good signal TO YOU do not get listening by anyone else that is measurable. In fact, most places in the US don't have much music on AM unless, as I said, it is in Farsi or Russian or Polish, to name three... or the station is one of several forms of Gospel that have mostly 55 and over listeners. I don't believe it. Name me ONE non-ethnic AM that plays only music and has salable ratings (meaning under age 55 listening). No, I would say, as I always have, that what you may pick up on your $5000 radio does not have the signal strength, clarity and consistency the average listener seeks. There are probably hundreds or relatively easy out of market AM signals you can get, between daytime and night. Listeners only pick the ones that have monster signals, as proven by decades of research. This is part of your BS story. I just used the table radios for S meter readings and the portable for listening. Over a dozen come in noise free on the portable. Actually almost 2 dozen come in noise free. But nobody else listens to them, even in your specific ZIP code area, as I explained to you before. Again, all of this is to divert attention from the fact that you cited a music AM in your metro area and I gave you the facts that it is rated poorly (39th in 25-54 in the Ventura / Ornard MSA) and has plummeting revenue and almost no billing now. That's typical for music AMs unless they are ones like KIRN that are the only service to an unserved community... in this case, Persians. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: You are so full of it. I enjoy FM stereo in the car all the time. Noise is only a problem with the windows down. You probably need to buy a better car with a decent radio in it instead of one with that HD crap radio. You do not have the same noise floor in a car as you do in a quiet living room. Because of this, and that fact that just under a third of radio listening is in the car. we adjust processing so that low level momets are brought up by AGC / leveling action so they will not be below the normal or average noise floor in a moving car. The HD radio in my vehicle is a module added to the base BMW computer / radio / GPS / vehicle control system. It does not affect the very good design of both the car and the radio. I've owned one radio that was FM mono for the work cubicle where I wanted it small and simple as possible. I didn't want to use earphones so I kept the volume down to where it was indiscernible the next cube over. Most radio listening is done on that kind of radio. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: Try re-reading the paragraph above your ill-reasoned one. I said "decently rated" quite clearly. KVEN is rated 39th in the market in 25-54 year old listeners (what in the industry are called the "sales demos") and is 27th in listeners of all ages (12+ being the term used for that.). It's billings have fallen by more than half since the year 2000, and currently are about 10% of the level attained by the market's leading billers, KCAQ, KHAY and KXLM. I don't need to reread it master of BS. You have this false notion that there are only like 2 stations that have any signal in a market, which of course is BS. No, I have the proof, as does any other subscriber to Arbitron, that people will not listen to weak signals that are subject to noise, interference or difficult to tune in. That's not proof. That's just advertising marketing BS. Anyway, you are obfuscating. I clearly said that AM stations with any appreciable ratings are not playing music. You went off on an unrelated and irrelevant tangent. I'm not obfuscating. You have a one note point to make and this is just your way to obscure it. I get around 13 stations over S9 where I live 60 miles north of LA and of course there are another dozen that put in a decent relatively noise fee signal on a portable most places. But most of the ones that have a good signal TO YOU do not get listening by anyone else that is measurable. Yeah, and you see that you fall back to that marketing crap. It doesn't get enough market share so it does not exist. In fact, most places in the US don't have much music on AM unless, as I said, it is in Farsi or Russian or Polish, to name three... or the station is one of several forms of Gospel that have mostly 55 and over listeners. I don't believe it. Name me ONE non-ethnic AM that plays only music and has salable ratings (meaning under age 55 listening). I don't prove the existence of radio stations by what ratings they get. That's your scam. No, I would say, as I always have, that what you may pick up on your $5000 radio does not have the signal strength, clarity and consistency the average listener seeks. There are probably hundreds or relatively easy out of market AM signals you can get, between daytime and night. Listeners only pick the ones that have monster signals, as proven by decades of research. This is part of your BS story. I just used the table radios for S meter readings and the portable for listening. Over a dozen come in noise free on the portable. Actually almost 2 dozen come in noise free. But nobody else listens to them, even in your specific ZIP code area, as I explained to you before. Again, all of this is to divert attention from the fact that you cited a music AM in your metro area and I gave you the facts that it is rated poorly (39th in 25-54 in the Ventura / Ornard MSA) and has plummeting revenue and almost no billing now. That's typical for music AMs unless they are ones like KIRN that are the only service to an unserved community... in this case, Persians. Nope. That is just a part of the fantasy marketing world you live in. This is just a part of the marketing fantasy you relive every day. Wake up the reader of this news group know you game. First it's "The station does not exist." Next "The station does not have enough signal to be noise free so people will listen." Then the final fall back position " The station does not get ratings so it might as well not exist." So now that we are down to 2 stations in a market we can implement HD with no problems right? What BS! -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"David Eduardo" wrote in message ... [snip] But it took a full decade for FM to achieve listening parity... which is why we say that HD is a long, long term process. Individualized media and internet delivery are here now, in a somewhat clunky form. The technology in these areas can be developed at a dizzying speed. Do the broadcasters have the time for a long, long term process? I wouldn't mind IBOC so much if other people were getting alot of use out of it. Radio did a quick job of getting a bunch of IBOC equipment on the air. But after that, what's happened? Radio prices are still high, and for the most part, the few that exist are either deskbound or dash bound. And why buy a radio anyway? There's only a meager supply of quality unique programming. I think I have an understanding of some of the big problems. Chipsets will remain expensive unless production becomes huge. And there's the matter of ibiquity's licensing fee. And broadcasters want their most popular programming on the main channels. But, if HD radio is a sure winner, they ought to back their bet with real money. Where's their faith? I doubt this current half assed approach will seem worthwhile after the full decade is up. And it is way to late to save AM now that owners are moving the "good" formats to FM because the AM listener base is so old they can't sell advertising. Then they should just turn the damn noisemakers off. That interstation racket is killing our hearing aids. Frank Dresser |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: No, I have the proof, as does any other subscriber to Arbitron, that people will not listen to weak signals that are subject to noise, interference or difficult to tune in. That's not proof. That's just advertising marketing BS. If you don't believe the results of millions and millions of radio listener 7-day diaries of listening over the last decade in market after market, then you are simply a fool. All the while I thought you were stubborn and obstinate, but I was wrong. Yes, I don't believe your story. That Arbitron data is good enough for advertisers to use it as a base to invest tens of billions of dollars a year, but you think it is BS. Yes, I believe your take on it is confused at best and deliberately wrong at worst. I take the "fool" thing back. You are really a "silly fool." You are a lying fool. Anyway, you are obfuscating. I clearly said that AM stations with any appreciable ratings are not playing music. You went off on an unrelated and irrelevant tangent. I'm not obfuscating. You have a one note point to make and this is just your way to obscure it. My point in this thread is that general market AM music stations exist in limited numbers, and those that do all behave like KVEN... near dead last in ratings and revenue. Your only point is to get what you want by any means possible including lying to people. I get around 13 stations over S9 where I live 60 miles north of LA and of course there are another dozen that put in a decent relatively noise fee signal on a portable most places. But most of the ones that have a good signal TO YOU do not get listening by anyone else that is measurable. Yeah, and you see that you fall back to that marketing crap. It doesn't get enough market share so it does not exist. This is the "if a tree falls in a forrest..." argument. The fact is, while those stations are hearable, they are not listenable to most radio listeners. For a variety of reasons, including signal strength, listeners who might be able to hear a station do not listen to those that do not have very good signals (in the range of 10 mv/m and above in metro areas) simply do not tune those stations in. For whatever the reason, AMs don't generate measurable listenership outside their strong signal areas. Name me ONE non-ethnic AM that plays only music and has salable ratings (meaning under age 55 listening). I don't prove the existence of radio stations by what ratings they get. That's your scam. I never said any station did not exist. I said stations, outside certain strong signal areas do not get any significant listening. And, in this thread, I said that AMs playing music for the general market don't get any, either. But nobody else listens to them, even in your specific ZIP code area, as I explained to you before. Again, all of this is to divert attention from the fact that you cited a music AM in your metro area and I gave you the facts that it is rated poorly (39th in 25-54 in the Ventura / Ornard MSA) and has plummeting revenue and almost no billing now. That's typical for music AMs unless they are ones like KIRN that are the only service to an unserved community... in this case, Persians. Nope. That is just a part of the fantasy marketing world you live in. This is just a part of the marketing fantasy you relive every day. Wake up the reader of this news group know you game. $20 billion invested in radio advertising based on measurements that are statistically accurate enough for that purpose yet you are in denial. As I said, "silly fool." Your take on the numbers is your invention and a pack of lies. First it's "The station does not exist." Next "The station does not have enough signal to be noise free so people will listen." Then the final fall back position " The station does not get ratings so it might as well not exist." I never said stations do not exist. I said AM music stations get practically no listening, just as I said stations outside an easily definable signal strength area similarly don't get listening. You have in the past. I know where you are going with the argument and I'm not falling for it. So now that we are down to 2 stations in a market we can implement HD with no problems right? What BS! HD will likely not help AM, since broadcasters are moving the only viable mass market formats to FM. The band will be reduced to infomercials and religion and service to small ethnic groups. Mexico has the right idea: they plan to move nearly all AMs to FM over the next few years, starting with the states in the Yucatan peninsula! Canada already deleted half or more of it's AMs, allowing them to move to FM. Even the 50 kw clear channel CBC stations in Montreal and Toronto were closed in favor of FM because the signals of the 4 stations in the two metros was not good enough in significant parts of each metro to give good service in this day of high noise levels and big buildings and such. Many people have posted that HD is one of two things depending on the individual and that is either drive them away from AM or be of no consequence. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , What a revelation coming from you that the music is compressed. I don't think all stations do this to the extent that you supposedly do it. The average station appears to compress everything to within a very small dynamic range. Many as little as 6dB. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , What a revelation coming from you that the music is compressed. I don't think all stations do this to the extent that you supposedly do it. The average station appears to compress everything to within a very small dynamic range. Many as little as 6dB. Wow, that's not much! I don't think I would want to listen to that. It would wear me down in short order. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: You do not have the same noise floor in a car as you do in a quiet living room. Because of this, and that fact that just under a third of radio listening is in the car. we adjust processing so that low level momets are brought up by AGC / leveling action so they will not be below the normal or average noise floor in a moving car. What a revelation coming from you that the music is compressed. I don't think all stations do this to the extent that you supposedly do it. The music comes pre-compressed. Look at most any commercial CD's waveforms and you can see what is done to the music. But stations don't "compress... the music." We process the audio for consistency. We do AGC where required to tighten the dynamic range, we have peak limiting to stay legal and we have multi-band processing to make sure there is song-to-song-to-commercial-to-DJ consistency. Most do more processing than I like. If you really want to hear processing, try the New York FMs. They are all B's, and at the ESB, only around 6 kw... so there has been a loudness war there for 4 decades. Every station buys every new model of the Optimod or the Omnia, and pushes them very close to the point that they generate square waves. Again, every station processes. It's a de facto legal requirement, in fact: overmodulation is against the FCC rules, and not having processing or not setting it up right as some stations have proved, is not an excuse. The FCC is not int he dynamic range protection business. The HD radio in my vehicle is a module added to the base BMW computer / radio / GPS / vehicle control system. It does not affect the very good design of both the car and the radio. Sounds like you are having car receiving problems. Maybe you have a defective radio and a defective car. I'd take it back to the dealer and get it fixed. I am not having reception problems, and you know it. Like most listeners, I don't put up with noisy signals if I even listen to AM. Most radio listening is done on that kind of radio. I doubt it. Other than the cubical radio all my listening has been and is stereo. The radio is a perfect square? Or you have it in your cubicle? Many research companies have done over the last few decades studies on what kind of radio people use most of the time. It's the kitchen radio from Bed, Bath and Beyond or WalMart or Target, picked often more to match the color of the countertops than for any audio quality concerns. And it's mono. It's the clock radio... similarly mono, or with two speakers 3 inches apart, which is still mono. It's the radio in the payment booth at the car park, or the one in the office or the AC station on the overhead speakers in the insurance office. It's mostly mono. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "Brenda Ann" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , What a revelation coming from you that the music is compressed. I don't think all stations do this to the extent that you supposedly do it. The average station appears to compress everything to within a very small dynamic range. Many as little as 6dB. Wow, that's not much! I don't think I would want to listen to that. It would wear me down in short order. Most people don't even notice it, such is the way of today's music (most any format). It's all part of the 'volume wars'. Stations clamoring to get noticed in a sea of other stations, so they want their signal to be as loud as possible. Eduardo talks about how stations have been using compression for many decades. This may well be true, but not the vast majority of them. Small market stations were using no compression at all well into the 80's. One public station I worked at never had it until their newest studios were built in the early 90's. Until the late 80's, we didn't even have stereo (management didn't want to cut our usable range, as we were only running about 1.8 KW), and until the mid '80's, we were still using Korean war surplus mixers and 50's era monaural professional recording equipment. :) And you know what? We sounded great. Real radio. The only 'feeds' we used were BBC radio off a shortwave receiver for 30 minutes a day and a feed from city hall for the city council meetings. Most of the air people (including myself) brought in their own record collections for use on the air. Format was all over the road (oldies, jazz, classical, ethnic (we had a 15 year old kid that played Chinese mantras and such, we used to kid him that they sounded like a Congressional session) and whatever else anybody could come up with.) |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "Brenda Ann" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , What a revelation coming from you that the music is compressed. I don't think all stations do this to the extent that you supposedly do it. The average station appears to compress everything to within a very small dynamic range. Many as little as 6dB. Wow, that's not much! I don't think I would want to listen to that. It would wear me down in short order. Brenda Anne is correct on this. Event he talk stations you listen to are processed to about the same standard. When you look at ANY station's modulation monitor, the excursion range seldom goes below 80% to 85% and is clipped hard at 100%. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: You do not have the same noise floor in a car as you do in a quiet living room. Because of this, and that fact that just under a third of radio listening is in the car. we adjust processing so that low level momets are brought up by AGC / leveling action so they will not be below the normal or average noise floor in a moving car. What a revelation coming from you that the music is compressed. I don't think all stations do this to the extent that you supposedly do it. The music comes pre-compressed. Look at most any commercial CD's waveforms and you can see what is done to the music. But stations don't "compress... the music." We process the audio for consistency. We do AGC where required to tighten the dynamic range, we have peak limiting to stay legal and we have multi-band processing to make sure there is song-to-song-to-commercial-to-DJ consistency. Most do more processing than I like. If you really want to hear processing, try the New York FMs. They are all B's, and at the ESB, only around 6 kw... so there has been a loudness war there for 4 decades. Every station buys every new model of the Optimod or the Omnia, and pushes them very close to the point that they generate square waves. Again, every station processes. It's a de facto legal requirement, in fact: overmodulation is against the FCC rules, and not having processing or not setting it up right as some stations have proved, is not an excuse. The FCC is not int he dynamic range protection business. The HD radio in my vehicle is a module added to the base BMW computer / radio / GPS / vehicle control system. It does not affect the very good design of both the car and the radio. Sounds like you are having car receiving problems. Maybe you have a defective radio and a defective car. I'd take it back to the dealer and get it fixed. I am not having reception problems, and you know it. Like most listeners, I don't put up with noisy signals if I even listen to AM. Most radio listening is done on that kind of radio. I doubt it. Other than the cubical radio all my listening has been and is stereo. The radio is a perfect square? Or you have it in your cubicle? Actually rectangular. There is a Tivoli One in my work cubical. Try and get your reading comprehension up to speed. Previously I wrote: I've owned one radio that was FM mono for the work cubicle where I wanted it small and simple as possible. I didn't want to use earphones so I kept the volume down to where it was indiscernible the next cube over. End quote. Many research companies have done over the last few decades studies on what kind of radio people use most of the time. It's the kitchen radio from Bed, Bath and Beyond or WalMart or Target, picked often more to match the color of the countertops than for any audio quality concerns. And it's mono. It's the clock radio... similarly mono, or with two speakers 3 inches apart, which is still mono. It's the radio in the payment booth at the car park, or the one in the office or the AC station on the overhead speakers in the insurance office. It's mostly mono. The FM radios I use "most of the time" are the car or home receiver with speaker far enough apart for good stereo. You sure use whacked surveys to shape your views or maybe you just misconstrue them. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "Brenda Ann" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message . .. In article , What a revelation coming from you that the music is compressed. I don't think all stations do this to the extent that you supposedly do it. The average station appears to compress everything to within a very small dynamic range. Many as little as 6dB. Wow, that's not much! I don't think I would want to listen to that. It would wear me down in short order. Brenda Anne is correct on this. Event he talk stations you listen to are processed to about the same standard. When you look at ANY station's modulation monitor, the excursion range seldom goes below 80% to 85% and is clipped hard at 100%. Talk radio does not need a large dynamic range but 6 dB seems to small. It seems to me that the sound levels vary more than 4 X. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: If you don't believe the results of millions and millions of radio listener 7-day diaries of listening over the last decade in market after market, then you are simply a fool. All the while I thought you were stubborn and obstinate, but I was wrong. Yes, I don't believe your story. Arbitron data from the diary system used for the last 43 years has been available electronically for close to 15 years. In that data, for every rated market, is embedded information on the ZIP code identified for respondents for their at work and in home listening. Together, in home and at work listening constitute about 70% of all the time spent listening, irrespective of maket size. With an additional Arbitron program, called MapMaker, a station can plot the distribution of diaries by ZIP code for all their listeners. You can then take the contours of the station as an overlay, and see at which point the incidence of listening dwindles to a point of being insignificant. Anyone subscribed to the Arbitron services has the data, in an application called Maximi$er, and if they have MapMaker and their own contours, they can see where listenership can be obtained and where it is pretty much impossible. And many stations have MapMaker, as its main purpose is to show retailers a station or cluster's listenership within the sales zone of a store or business. Nearly everyone I know in other companies has done this type of analysis. It's used to determine things like billboard locations, areas where to send and not to send direct mail, locations that will work for client remotes or for station van hits, etc., etc. Nobody wants to do a remote in an area where there is no listenership, since the station will look bad... and that is just one example of why all of the industry looks at what is often called the "useful" coverage area. OK, I'll give this a shot. You substitute marketing statical bull-crap for reality. That's where you go wrong. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: When you look at ANY station's modulation monitor, the excursion range seldom goes below 80% to 85% and is clipped hard at 100%. Talk radio does not need a large dynamic range but 6 dB seems to small. It seems to me that the sound levels vary more than 4 X. "It seems to you." That must be the IEEE "ISTY" standard for modulation density, right? 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I doubt it. Other than the cubical radio all my listening has been and is stereo. The radio is a perfect square? Or you have it in your cubicle? Actually rectangular. There is a Tivoli One in my work cubical. Try and get your reading comprehension up to speed. I understand quite well. "Cubical" is "cube shaped" while "cubicle" is a partially separated work area. My mistake. Sorry about that but you knew what I meant. Many research companies have done over the last few decades studies on what kind of radio people use most of the time. It's the kitchen radio from Bed, Bath and Beyond or WalMart or Target, picked often more to match the color of the countertops than for any audio quality concerns. And it's mono. It's the clock radio... similarly mono, or with two speakers 3 inches apart, which is still mono. It's the radio in the payment booth at the car park, or the one in the office or the AC station on the overhead speakers in the insurance office. It's mostly mono. The FM radios I use "most of the time" are the car or home receiver with speaker far enough apart for good stereo. You sure use whacked surveys to shape your views or maybe you just misconstrue them. The fact is that most people do not listen on receivers with separate speakers, and most lower end cars have too much mechanical and road noise for good stereo... that is why stations process everything, not just the music. Baloney. I've rented cheap cars that have low end radios in them and they are all stereo. Various studies have shown that around 60% of the average quarter hour listening is pure mono, meaning almost all in home and at work listening. In fact, quite a few stations have done the "mono with the stereo light lit" thing as mono fares better in areas of high multipath or for class A stations trying to compete with B's or C's. You are the one with the wax plugged ears. I can tell when the programming is stereo without looking at the stereo indicator and yes part of the programming is not stereo even though the indicator continues to detect the pilot signal. I don't believe the 60% mono figure. You are not making any sense at all today. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: OK, I'll give this a shot. You substitute marketing statical bull-crap for reality. That's where you go wrong. If that is the case, then an entire industry with over 100,000 employees is mistaken. The research tools used by broadcasters are no more "bull crap" than a study about yields as related to silicon purity in chip fabs. Obviously, anything you don't agree with is wrong. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: When you look at ANY station's modulation monitor, the excursion range seldom goes below 80% to 85% and is clipped hard at 100%. Talk radio does not need a large dynamic range but 6 dB seems to small. It seems to me that the sound levels vary more than 4 X. "It seems to you." That must be the IEEE "ISTY" standard for modulation density, right? 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations does not permit that degree of dynamic range. And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio industry and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone doubter, are the one in need of attention. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Brenda Ann" wrote in message ... Most people don't even notice it, such is the way of today's music (most any format). It's all part of the 'volume wars'. Stations clamoring to get noticed in a sea of other stations, so they want their signal to be as loud as possible. If anything, processing is less on the average than it was in the 70's and 80's on FM, or the way it was in the 60's on AM. Eduardo talks about how stations have been using compression for many decades. This may well be true, but not the vast majority of them. I don't recall ever seeing a US station without at least a peak limiter going back to the late 50's. And everywhere I went, I visited stations... ranging from places like Ludington, MI, to San Francisco. Small market stations were using no compression at all well into the 80's. One public station I worked at never had it until their newest studios were built in the early 90's. Until the late 80's, we didn't even have stereo (management didn't want to cut our usable range, as we were only running about 1.8 KW), and until the mid '80's, we were still using Korean war surplus mixers and 50's era monaural professional recording equipment. :) That may be true for a few public stations, but commercial stations knew two things: if the listeners can't hear you, they won't listen... and the FCC was genuinely intolerant of stations that did not have electronic control of peak limiting. The Levil Devils and such were the rule in the late 50's, and even major market stations (you can hear them on airchecks) had what by today's standards is horrible pumping and clipping from those early devices. Then the Audimax and Volumax came out in the early 60's and we all went crazy changing the components to get more clipping and greater and faster AGC. The 80's brought multiband processors from Durrough and Gregg Labs and such, and culminated with the Optimod. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: The fact is that most people do not listen on receivers with separate speakers, and most lower end cars have too much mechanical and road noise for good stereo... that is why stations process everything, not just the music. Baloney. I've rented cheap cars that have low end radios in them and they are all stereo. You are so linear and literal I'll bet you have never laughed at a pun or a joke. I said that the ambient noise from the car itself as well as road noise are such that most stereo information is lost or imperceptible in vehicles and, thus, not appreciated. In addition, the processing on nearly all stations reduces the dynamic range, so the stereo effect of different levels from left and right is eliminated... and that applies to any listening location. Various studies have shown that around 60% of the average quarter hour listening is pure mono, meaning almost all in home and at work listening. In fact, quite a few stations have done the "mono with the stereo light lit" thing as mono fares better in areas of high multipath or for class A stations trying to compete with B's or C's. You are the one with the wax plugged ears. I can tell when the programming is stereo without looking at the stereo indicator and yes part of the programming is not stereo even though the indicator continues to detect the pilot signal. I said that there were stations that got the stereo light to shine without actually being in stereo. The objective was deceiptful, as what they wanted was to make people think that the station was stereo when it wasn't. Most people never figured that out as they couldn't tell the difference. I don't believe the 60% mono figure. You are not making any sense at all today. I really don't care what you believe as you have no data to the contrary while the radio industry has countless valid surveys. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: OK, I'll give this a shot. You substitute marketing statical bull-crap for reality. That's where you go wrong. If that is the case, then an entire industry with over 100,000 employees is mistaken. And you think that is not possible? Look at what just happened in the RE loan industry. Those people believed and now they are screwed. The research tools used by broadcasters are no more "bull crap" than a study about yields as related to silicon purity in chip fabs. Obviously, anything you don't agree with is wrong. Apples and oranges. Studying semiconductor parametrics to determine yields are a far cry to how from what Arbitron does. You can makeup anything mixing people and statistics. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message . .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: When you look at ANY station's modulation monitor, the excursion range seldom goes below 80% to 85% and is clipped hard at 100%. Talk radio does not need a large dynamic range but 6 dB seems to small. It seems to me that the sound levels vary more than 4 X. "It seems to you." That must be the IEEE "ISTY" standard for modulation density, right? 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations does not permit that degree of dynamic range. Really? what is permissible then? And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio industry and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone doubter, are the one in need of attention. Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Brenda Ann" wrote in message ... Most people don't even notice it, such is the way of today's music (most any format). It's all part of the 'volume wars'. Stations clamoring to get noticed in a sea of other stations, so they want their signal to be as loud as possible. If anything, processing is less on the average than it was in the 70's and 80's on FM, or the way it was in the 60's on AM. The argument is dynamic range and I find your 6 dB figure unbelievable. Eduardo talks about how stations have been using compression for many decades. This may well be true, but not the vast majority of them. I don't recall ever seeing a US station without at least a peak limiter going back to the late 50's. And everywhere I went, I visited stations... ranging from places like Ludington, MI, to San Francisco. Fine. I understand the need for limiting. So what. Small market stations were using no compression at all well into the 80's. One public station I worked at never had it until their newest studios were built in the early 90's. Until the late 80's, we didn't even have stereo (management didn't want to cut our usable range, as we were only running about 1.8 KW), and until the mid '80's, we were still using Korean war surplus mixers and 50's era monaural professional recording equipment. :) That may be true for a few public stations, but commercial stations knew two things: if the listeners can't hear you, they won't listen... and the FCC was genuinely intolerant of stations that did not have electronic control of peak limiting. The Levil Devils and such were the rule in the late 50's, and even major market stations (you can hear them on airchecks) had what by today's standards is horrible pumping and clipping from those early devices. Then the Audimax and Volumax came out in the early 60's and we all went crazy changing the components to get more clipping and greater and faster AGC. The 80's brought multiband processors from Durrough and Gregg Labs and such, and culminated with the Optimod. Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's just not right. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: The fact is that most people do not listen on receivers with separate speakers, and most lower end cars have too much mechanical and road noise for good stereo... that is why stations process everything, not just the music. Baloney. I've rented cheap cars that have low end radios in them and they are all stereo. You are so linear and literal I'll bet you have never laughed at a pun or a joke. I said that the ambient noise from the car itself as well as road noise are such that most stereo information is lost or imperceptible in vehicles and, thus, not appreciated. In addition, the processing on nearly all stations reduces the dynamic range, so the stereo effect of different levels from left and right is eliminated... and that applies to any listening location. It's easy to perceive depending on the material. Say a different instrument comes from left and right at the same volume. Easy to tell even with road noise. Various studies have shown that around 60% of the average quarter hour listening is pure mono, meaning almost all in home and at work listening. In fact, quite a few stations have done the "mono with the stereo light lit" thing as mono fares better in areas of high multipath or for class A stations trying to compete with B's or C's. You are the one with the wax plugged ears. I can tell when the programming is stereo without looking at the stereo indicator and yes part of the programming is not stereo even though the indicator continues to detect the pilot signal. I said that there were stations that got the stereo light to shine without actually being in stereo. The objective was deceiptful, as what they wanted was to make people think that the station was stereo when it wasn't. Most people never figured that out as they couldn't tell the difference. How am I supposed to know about most people. You saying most people are stupid then? I don't believe the 60% mono figure. You are not making any sense at all today. I really don't care what you believe as you have no data to the contrary while the radio industry has countless valid surveys. People don't lie in the surveys? Mistakes are not made? Silly people like you are not around to misinterpret the data? -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: OK, I'll give this a shot. You substitute marketing statical bull-crap for reality. That's where you go wrong. If that is the case, then an entire industry with over 100,000 employees is mistaken. And you think that is not possible? Look at what just happened in the RE loan industry. Those people believed and now they are screwed. Most of that invold the very few people who set policy. The research tools used by broadcasters are no more "bull crap" than a study about yields as related to silicon purity in chip fabs. Obviously, anything you don't agree with is wrong. Apples and oranges. Studying semiconductor parametrics to determine yields are a far cry to how from what Arbitron does. You can makeup anything mixing people and statistics. The fact is that the Arbitron diary methodology and implementation are accredited by the Media Research Council, made up mostly of some of the best statisticians and surveying technologists in the country who work at the behest of the advertising and agency communities. The purpose is to guarantee that proper techniques and procedures are used so that the data is reliable within the ocnstraints of the limits of polling. |
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