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ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations does not permit that degree of dynamic range. Really? what is permissible then? Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio industry and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone doubter, are the one in need of attention. Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you. No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Brenda Ann" wrote in message ... Most people don't even notice it, such is the way of today's music (most any format). It's all part of the 'volume wars'. Stations clamoring to get noticed in a sea of other stations, so they want their signal to be as loud as possible. If anything, processing is less on the average than it was in the 70's and 80's on FM, or the way it was in the 60's on AM. The argument is dynamic range and I find your 6 dB figure unbelievable. That was Brenda Ann's statement, but I agree with her that the range is limited to about that figure, with a few give and takes. CHR stations may be a little less, while AC's and such may be a little more, but not much in either direction. Eduardo talks about how stations have been using compression for many decades. This may well be true, but not the vast majority of them. I don't recall ever seeing a US station without at least a peak limiter going back to the late 50's. And everywhere I went, I visited stations... ranging from places like Ludington, MI, to San Francisco. Fine. I understand the need for limiting. So what. Limiting is a form of compression since it removes excursions in excess of the level that would produce 100% modulation (or 100% negative peaks on AM). Then the Audimax and Volumax came out in the early 60's and we all went crazy changing the components to get more clipping and greater and faster AGC. The 80's brought multiband processors from Durrough and Gregg Labs and such, and culminated with the Optimod. Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's just not right. It's what works. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I said that the ambient noise from the car itself as well as road noise are such that most stereo information is lost or imperceptible in vehicles and, thus, not appreciated. In addition, the processing on nearly all stations reduces the dynamic range, so the stereo effect of different levels from left and right is eliminated... and that applies to any listening location. It's easy to perceive depending on the material. Say a different instrument comes from left and right at the same volume. Easy to tell even with road noise. Part of the perception of dimension comes from dynamic range. Radio so limits range that the information is lost and the ability to interpret spatial relationsips is diminished. I said that there were stations that got the stereo light to shine without actually being in stereo. The objective was deceiptful, as what they wanted was to make people think that the station was stereo when it wasn't. Most people never figured that out as they couldn't tell the difference. How am I supposed to know about most people. You saying most people are stupid then? No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the lit stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not. I don't believe the 60% mono figure. You are not making any sense at all today. I really don't care what you believe as you have no data to the contrary while the radio industry has countless valid surveys. People don't lie in the surveys? Mistakes are not made? Silly people like you are not around to misinterpret the data? My staff does about a hundred thousand interviews a year, all of which I can monitor. We see no indication of lies, since lying about a station or about music they like has no gain. QC will avoid mistakes, and a percentage of reconfirm callbacks can achieve that. As to the interpretation, we've done better in the ratings than any other major player over the last years, so we must be doing our research, interpretation and implementation quite well. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... I said that there were stations that got the stereo light to shine without actually being in stereo. The objective was deceiptful, as what they wanted was to make people think that the station was stereo when it wasn't. Most people never figured that out as they couldn't tell the difference. How am I supposed to know about most people. You saying most people are stupid then? I read the same study many years ago, and have no trouble believing it, since most people I know pay little actual attention to content, but instead take psychological cues. Psychoacoustics is the main thing that allows for mp3's to be listenable. It's a fact that the digitalization is so far from accurate that it's not logically feasible, but the human brain has an amazing capability to 'fill in the blanks'. This is also why those 'stereo emulators' work at all... by dividing up the bandpass between the channels. AFN AM (except for Seoul and, finally, Osan) broadcasts one channel of a stereo feed. It sounds like crap to the three people I know here that can actually tell the difference (two of us are in the same house). Talking to dozens of GI's, not a one of them even noticed that one channel was missing. The engineers, until the most recent one, quipped "it's AM, it's only monaural". The engineers were IDIOTS that had never heard of signal summing!! That's how little people pay attention to program sources.. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"David Eduardo" wrote in message ... [snip] No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the lit stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not. [snip] Let's not forget about modern FM car radios. My car's radio blends from stereo to mono quite seamlessly as signals become less than ideal. If I pay attention, I'll notice that the reception is in weak stereo or full mono much of the time. That's preferable because there's practially no distorted audio, abrupt switches from stereo to mono and picket fencing that come with full time stereo car radios. All the while, the stereo light never blinks off. Frank Dresser |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
David 'Eduardo' Frackelton Gleason wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations does not permit that degree of dynamic range. Really? what is permissible then? Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio industry and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone doubter, are the one in need of attention. Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you. No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome. They simply may not be aware that you are a faux Hispanic and known pathological liar! |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumerbenefits
On Oct 19, 2:17*am, Telamon
wrote: Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's just not right. You're both right: FM system dynamic range may be on the order of 70 dB while the occupied dynamic range may be the top 6 dB for 95% of the time on many stations. The dynamic range between a comfortable loudness and ambient noise may be as much as 30-35 dB in the average home or as little as 10-20 dB in an automobile. Stations that process for the ideal home listening environment will have frustrated listeners in the car if they carry wide dynamic range content such as classical music and vice versa. Tom |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message . .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: OK, I'll give this a shot. You substitute marketing statical bull-crap for reality. That's where you go wrong. If that is the case, then an entire industry with over 100,000 employees is mistaken. And you think that is not possible? Look at what just happened in the RE loan industry. Those people believed and now they are screwed. Most of that invold the very few people who set policy. Ha, ha, ha. You are above the fray setting policy. How sociopathic of you. The research tools used by broadcasters are no more "bull crap" than a study about yields as related to silicon purity in chip fabs. Obviously, anything you don't agree with is wrong. Apples and oranges. Studying semiconductor parametrics to determine yields are a far cry to how from what Arbitron does. You can makeup anything mixing people and statistics. The fact is that the Arbitron diary methodology and implementation are accredited by the Media Research Council, made up mostly of some of the best statisticians and surveying technologists in the country who work at the behest of the advertising and agency communities. The purpose is to guarantee that proper techniques and procedures are used so that the data is reliable within the ocnstraints of the limits of polling. Bunch of malarky. Preconceived ideas implemented by one group beholden to another. That might be your kind of vetting but most would not fall for it. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations does not permit that degree of dynamic range. Really? what is permissible then? Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db Well, I guess the stations WANT the LISTENER to get FATIGUED listening to their station so they turn it off then. And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio industry and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone doubter, are the one in need of attention. Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you. No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome. All a blur? You can imagine quite a bit in a short period of time apparently. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Brenda Ann" wrote in message ... Most people don't even notice it, such is the way of today's music (most any format). It's all part of the 'volume wars'. Stations clamoring to get noticed in a sea of other stations, so they want their signal to be as loud as possible. If anything, processing is less on the average than it was in the 70's and 80's on FM, or the way it was in the 60's on AM. The argument is dynamic range and I find your 6 dB figure unbelievable. That was Brenda Ann's statement, but I agree with her that the range is limited to about that figure, with a few give and takes. CHR stations may be a little less, while AC's and such may be a little more, but not much in either direction. Eduardo talks about how stations have been using compression for many decades. This may well be true, but not the vast majority of them. I don't recall ever seeing a US station without at least a peak limiter going back to the late 50's. And everywhere I went, I visited stations... ranging from places like Ludington, MI, to San Francisco. Fine. I understand the need for limiting. So what. Limiting is a form of compression since it removes excursions in excess of the level that would produce 100% modulation (or 100% negative peaks on AM). Not really. Limiting is a hard stop that is not ever passed. Compression is an algorithm applied to the program material that attempts to prevent reaching that max limit but it could go over limit in extreme circumstances. Then the Audimax and Volumax came out in the early 60's and we all went crazy changing the components to get more clipping and greater and faster AGC. The 80's brought multiband processors from Durrough and Gregg Labs and such, and culminated with the Optimod. Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's just not right. It's what works. I don't think so. Maybe that's why I can't listen to most FM stations as you helped pervert the sound. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I said that the ambient noise from the car itself as well as road noise are such that most stereo information is lost or imperceptible in vehicles and, thus, not appreciated. In addition, the processing on nearly all stations reduces the dynamic range, so the stereo effect of different levels from left and right is eliminated... and that applies to any listening location. It's easy to perceive depending on the material. Say a different instrument comes from left and right at the same volume. Easy to tell even with road noise. Part of the perception of dimension comes from dynamic range. Radio so limits range that the information is lost and the ability to interpret spatial relationsips is diminished. That's right Eduardo, dynamic range only plays a part in stereo. I said that there were stations that got the stereo light to shine without actually being in stereo. The objective was deceiptful, as what they wanted was to make people think that the station was stereo when it wasn't. Most people never figured that out as they couldn't tell the difference. How am I supposed to know about most people. You saying most people are stupid then? No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the lit stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not. I can't speak for most people and neither can you. I am quite capable of telling the difference. I don't believe the 60% mono figure. You are not making any sense at all today. I really don't care what you believe as you have no data to the contrary while the radio industry has countless valid surveys. People don't lie in the surveys? Mistakes are not made? Silly people like you are not around to misinterpret the data? My staff does about a hundred thousand interviews a year, all of which I can monitor. We see no indication of lies, since lying about a station or about music they like has no gain. QC will avoid mistakes, and a percentage of reconfirm callbacks can achieve that. As to the interpretation, we've done better in the ratings than any other major player over the last years, so we must be doing our research, interpretation and implementation quite well. You do not understand the scientific process and bias the results of your interviews in a number of ways so the results fit your preconceived notions. Do continue to fool yourself. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"Frank Dresser" wrote: "David Eduardo" wrote in message ... [snip] No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the lit stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not. [snip] Let's not forget about modern FM car radios. My car's radio blends from stereo to mono quite seamlessly as signals become less than ideal. If I pay attention, I'll notice that the reception is in weak stereo or full mono much of the time. That's preferable because there's practially no distorted audio, abrupt switches from stereo to mono and picket fencing that come with full time stereo car radios. All the while, the stereo light never blinks off. The stereo indicator only lights when a 19KHz pilot carrier is present. The program material could be monophonic or stereo. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article
, Tom wrote: On Oct 19, 2:17*am, Telamon wrote: Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's just not right. You're both right: FM system dynamic range may be on the order of 70 dB while the occupied dynamic range may be the top 6 dB for 95% of the time on many stations. The dynamic range between a comfortable loudness and ambient noise may be as much as 30-35 dB in the average home or as little as 10-20 dB in an automobile. Stations that process for the ideal home listening environment will have frustrated listeners in the car if they carry wide dynamic range content such as classical music and vice versa. That's not what he meant Tom. Eduardo thinks that is the entire dynamic range is 6 dB. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: The fact is that the Arbitron diary methodology and implementation are accredited by the Media Research Council, made up mostly of some of the best statisticians and surveying technologists in the country who work at the behest of the advertising and agency communities. The purpose is to guarantee that proper techniques and procedures are used so that the data is reliable within the ocnstraints of the limits of polling. Bunch of malarky. Preconceived ideas implemented by one group beholden to another. That might be your kind of vetting but most would not fall for it. The MRC represents the interests of advertisers, who are beholden to neither the media nor the ratings companies. At most times, they are adversarial. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db Well, I guess the stations WANT the LISTENER to get FATIGUED listening to their station so they turn it off then. See "Tom's" post below. The reason for reduced dynamic range is to always be above the ambient noise in the listening environment. In addition, over time we have found that a station that is not loud is also perceived as being "weak" and is thus not considered a good station. No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome. All a blur? You can imagine quite a bit in a short period of time apparently. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: .. Limiting is a form of compression since it removes excursions in excess of the level that would produce 100% modulation (or 100% negative peaks on AM). Not really. Limiting is a hard stop that is not ever passed. Compression is an algorithm applied to the program material that attempts to prevent reaching that max limit but it could go over limit in extreme circumstances. That's the definition that fit 30 years ago. Today, audio processers like the Optimod and the Omnia employ delay to look ahead at the audio, then, with advance knowledge, know when to reduce gain to prevent the need to peak limit by hard clipping. So what we have is a merging of the concept of compression and peak limiting. It's all achieved by looking ahead to know how to process the audio that then heads to the transmitter. It's what works. I don't think so. Maybe that's why I can't listen to most FM stations as you helped pervert the sound. There are about 30,000 stations in the Western Hemisphere. I can't see how one person's adjustments can influence all of them. The real truth is that stations have realized that a sound that is loud, level and specttrally balanced wins if the programming is right. Today's radio sounds infinitely better than it did 30 or 40 years ago. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , Tom wrote: On Oct 19, 2:17 am, Telamon wrote: Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's just not right. You're both right: FM system dynamic range may be on the order of 70 dB while the occupied dynamic range may be the top 6 dB for 95% of the time on many stations. The dynamic range between a comfortable loudness and ambient noise may be as much as 30-35 dB in the average home or as little as 10-20 dB in an automobile. Stations that process for the ideal home listening environment will have frustrated listeners in the car if they carry wide dynamic range content such as classical music and vice versa. That's not what he meant Tom. Eduardo thinks that is the entire dynamic range is 6 dB. Tom is clairying that the dynamic range of the FM system vs. the dynamic range of the program content broadcasters put into the system. As Tom says, about 95% of the time the material on air is somewhere in the vicinity of a 6 db dynamic range. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: The fact is that the Arbitron diary methodology and implementation are accredited by the Media Research Council, made up mostly of some of the best statisticians and surveying technologists in the country who work at the behest of the advertising and agency communities. The purpose is to guarantee that proper techniques and procedures are used so that the data is reliable within the ocnstraints of the limits of polling. Bunch of malarky. Preconceived ideas implemented by one group beholden to another. That might be your kind of vetting but most would not fall for it. The MRC represents the interests of advertisers, who are beholden to neither the media nor the ratings companies. At most times, they are adversarial. Yeah right. Keep on dreaming. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db Well, I guess the stations WANT the LISTENER to get FATIGUED listening to their station so they turn it off then. See "Tom's" post below. The reason for reduced dynamic range is to always be above the ambient noise in the listening environment. In addition, over time we have found that a station that is not loud is also perceived as being "weak" and is thus not considered a good station. SNIP I go right on by those "loud" stations. Now I understand why I no longer listen to FM except for the classical music stations. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: The MRC represents the interests of advertisers, who are beholden to neither the media nor the ratings companies. At most times, they are adversarial. Yeah right. Keep on dreaming. Obviously, you have never been in a radio station negotiation with an ad agency. Or seen how an MRC decision caused Arbitron shares to lose 30% of their value in 2007. "Adversarial" may not have been a strong enough term... "gladiatorial" may be a better fit. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: . Limiting is a form of compression since it removes excursions in excess of the level that would produce 100% modulation (or 100% negative peaks on AM). Not really. Limiting is a hard stop that is not ever passed. Compression is an algorithm applied to the program material that attempts to prevent reaching that max limit but it could go over limit in extreme circumstances. That's the definition that fit 30 years ago. Today, audio processers like the Optimod and the Omnia employ delay to look ahead at the audio, then, with advance knowledge, know when to reduce gain to prevent the need to peak limit by hard clipping. So what we have is a merging of the concept of compression and peak limiting. It's all achieved by looking ahead to know how to process the audio that then heads to the transmitter. I have a new moniker for you. Eduardo the 6 dB man, same BS story all the time. It's what works. I don't think so. Maybe that's why I can't listen to most FM stations as you helped pervert the sound. There are about 30,000 stations in the Western Hemisphere. I can't see how one person's adjustments can influence all of them. The real truth is that stations have realized that a sound that is loud, level and specttrally balanced wins if the programming is right. Today's radio sounds infinitely better than it did 30 or 40 years ago. It's called a concept. I understand music bands have been engaged in the same process trying to sound louder than the other bands. What radio stations do today is wrong and the listenership is falling off. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , Tom wrote: On Oct 19, 2:17 am, Telamon wrote: Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's just not right. You're both right: FM system dynamic range may be on the order of 70 dB while the occupied dynamic range may be the top 6 dB for 95% of the time on many stations. The dynamic range between a comfortable loudness and ambient noise may be as much as 30-35 dB in the average home or as little as 10-20 dB in an automobile. Stations that process for the ideal home listening environment will have frustrated listeners in the car if they carry wide dynamic range content such as classical music and vice versa. That's not what he meant Tom. Eduardo thinks that is the entire dynamic range is 6 dB. Tom is clairying that the dynamic range of the FM system vs. the dynamic range of the program content broadcasters put into the system. As Tom says, about 95% of the time the material on air is somewhere in the vicinity of a 6 db dynamic range. Good thing he clarified that for you. You were looking pretty stupid. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: It's called a concept. I understand music bands have been engaged in the same process trying to sound louder than the other bands. Untrue. The "loudness" is done in mixdown and mastering. Most producers of contemporary music look for a heavy, dense sound. What radio stations do today is wrong and the listenership is falling off. I see. People are going to 128 kbs mp3's because radio sounds bad? Again, the limited dynamic range is necessary to keep al program content above the noise level of the listening environment. Radio is not the same as listening to a CD. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: The MRC represents the interests of advertisers, who are beholden to neither the media nor the ratings companies. At most times, they are adversarial. Yeah right. Keep on dreaming. Obviously, you have never been in a radio station negotiation with an ad agency. Or seen how an MRC decision caused Arbitron shares to lose 30% of their value in 2007. "Adversarial" may not have been a strong enough term... "gladiatorial" may be a better fit. How's it going 6dB man? Arbitron screwed themselves with your kind of pointy haired thinking and the losses will keep on coming. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , Tom is clairying that the dynamic range of the FM system vs. the dynamic range of the program content broadcasters put into the system. As Tom says, about 95% of the time the material on air is somewhere in the vicinity of a 6 db dynamic range. Good thing he clarified that for you. You were looking pretty stupid. No, he clarified for you that the system may be capable of much wider dynamic range, but radio stations reduce the range of the content due to the requirements of the market. I had been saying all along that Brenda Ann's assesment of a dynamic range of about 6 db is the norm for program content, not for the system. A Porsche may be capable of 200 MPH, but the reality of the smoothness of roads, other traffic and legal restrictions makes the average owner keep it to 60 to 80 MPH at the top. FM is capable of a very wide dynamic range. Reality forces stations to limit the range of content. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: It's called a concept. I understand music bands have been engaged in the same process trying to sound louder than the other bands. Untrue. The "loudness" is done in mixdown and mastering. Most producers of contemporary music look for a heavy, dense sound. It is true. Take the cotton out of your ears. Of course it is done with track mixing. You think the musicians are compressing their physical instruments? Hilarious! What radio stations do today is wrong and the listenership is falling off. I see. People are going to 128 kbs mp3's because radio sounds bad? People resort to MP3 to save disk space not because it sounds good. MP3 is not all the same as you can determine the level of compression. And before you get all crazy dynamic range compression is not the same thing as data compression. Again, the limited dynamic range is necessary to keep al program content above the noise level of the listening environment. Radio is not the same as listening to a CD. The old record were capable of around 80 dB and CD's are around 90 dB. I don't see why radio stations can't do 80 dB. The transmitters can handle 85% modulation. And as for previous statements about table top radio with speakers only a foot apart being worthless for stereo these can generate decent stereo separation through electronic delay processing. Hey, I just heard a spot for HD radio. I can answer it this way, American's are smart enough to stay away from it. Ha, ha. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , Tom is clairying that the dynamic range of the FM system vs. the dynamic range of the program content broadcasters put into the system. As Tom says, about 95% of the time the material on air is somewhere in the vicinity of a 6 db dynamic range. Good thing he clarified that for you. You were looking pretty stupid. No, he clarified for you that the system may be capable of much wider dynamic range, but radio stations reduce the range of the content due to the requirements of the market. I had been saying all along that Brenda Ann's assesment of a dynamic range of about 6 db is the norm for program content, not for the system. A Porsche may be capable of 200 MPH, but the reality of the smoothness of roads, other traffic and legal restrictions makes the average owner keep it to 60 to 80 MPH at the top. FM is capable of a very wide dynamic range. Reality forces stations to limit the range of content. Hey there 6 dB man, he saved your lying butt. You certainly are over the top. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "Frank Dresser" wrote: "David Eduardo" wrote in message ... [snip] No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the lit stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not. [snip] Let's not forget about modern FM car radios. My car's radio blends from stereo to mono quite seamlessly as signals become less than ideal. If I pay attention, I'll notice that the reception is in weak stereo or full mono much of the time. That's preferable because there's practially no distorted audio, abrupt switches from stereo to mono and picket fencing that come with full time stereo car radios. All the while, the stereo light never blinks off. The stereo indicator only lights when a 19KHz pilot carrier is present. The program material could be monophonic or stereo. Yes, but the stereo demodulator blends to mono as the signal weakens. Mono demodulation needs far less signal to get a good signal to noise radio. And this isn't the stereo to mono auto switching the older demodulators used, it's a gradual blend without an abrupt shift. The system works quite well and I'm sure much of the time it's working as a mono demodulator on weak signal stereo programming. There isn't even a stereo-mono switch on the radio. It doesn't need one. Frank Dresser |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: It's called a concept. I understand music bands have been engaged in the same process trying to sound louder than the other bands. Untrue. The "loudness" is done in mixdown and mastering. Most producers of contemporary music look for a heavy, dense sound. It is true. Take the cotton out of your ears. Of course it is done with track mixing. You think the musicians are compressing their physical instruments? Hilarious! You said the bands were responsible. They are not. And mixdown is a lot more than combining tracks at different levels... often individual instruments are processed individually to bring out a particular "sound" the producer is after. Again, it's not the band that makes thise decision in 99% of the cases. People resort to MP3 to save disk space not because it sounds good. MP3 is not all the same as you can determine the level of compression. With terabyte HD's under $200 and 500 gig laptop drives at about $120 and various memory plug ins at 8 gigs for around $20, there is no need for 128 kbs MP3s... it's simply the de facto standard for consumer audio. MP3s are not overally intended always to save disk space. They are used at the high end (256 kbs and 320 kbs) to be infinitely portable and exchangable. A huge percentage of commercials come to stations now online and in MP3 format, and most promotional music is in MP3 format... everyone can play them, every system can use them. And before you get all crazy dynamic range compression is not the same thing as data compression. I realize this. Dynamic range compression is the restriction of the audio content to a specific range. In this instance, I was discussing MP3's, not the air chain of a radio station. Again, the limited dynamic range is necessary to keep al program content above the noise level of the listening environment. Radio is not the same as listening to a CD. The old record were capable of around 80 dB and CD's are around 90 dB. I don't see why radio stations can't do 80 dB. The transmitters can handle 85% modulation. AM can handle 100% negative peaks, and most transmitters of the last few decades can do maybe 140% on positive peaks. FM transmitters can do way over 100% modulation, as the standard in the US is simply +/- 75 kHz deviation for the arbitrary 100% modulation. In fact, one can go to about 130% before receiver bandwidth shape factors make it start sounding ugly. Dynamic range is limited to make radio listenable in the typical environments radio is heard in. The dominant factor is in-car, where if you go beyond about 8 to 10 db noise masks some of the audio. So all other environments where radio is used are subject to the limits of the worst one, which is mostly in-car. And as for previous statements about table top radio with speakers only a foot apart being worthless for stereo these can generate decent stereo separation through electronic delay processing. I said no such thing, and you are lying. I said that many so-called stereo clock radios have speakers that are 3" to 4" apart, and unless you put your head within a few inches of the radio, the stereo effect is lost. Hey, I just heard a spot for HD radio. I can answer it this way, American's are smart enough to stay away from it. Ha, ha. And you know so little about consumer behaviour that you should be written up as a case study. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , Tom is clairying that the dynamic range of the FM system vs. the dynamic range of the program content broadcasters put into the system. As Tom says, about 95% of the time the material on air is somewhere in the vicinity of a 6 db dynamic range. Good thing he clarified that for you. You were looking pretty stupid. No, he clarified for you that the system may be capable of much wider dynamic range, but radio stations reduce the range of the content due to the requirements of the market. I had been saying all along that Brenda Ann's assesment of a dynamic range of about 6 db is the norm for program content, not for the system. A Porsche may be capable of 200 MPH, but the reality of the smoothness of roads, other traffic and legal restrictions makes the average owner keep it to 60 to 80 MPH at the top. FM is capable of a very wide dynamic range. Reality forces stations to limit the range of content. Hey there 6 dB man, he saved your lying butt. He saved your misinterpretation of the facts. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"Frank Dresser" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "Frank Dresser" wrote: "David Eduardo" wrote in message ... [snip] No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the lit stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not. [snip] Let's not forget about modern FM car radios. My car's radio blends from stereo to mono quite seamlessly as signals become less than ideal. If I pay attention, I'll notice that the reception is in weak stereo or full mono much of the time. That's preferable because there's practially no distorted audio, abrupt switches from stereo to mono and picket fencing that come with full time stereo car radios. All the while, the stereo light never blinks off. The stereo indicator only lights when a 19KHz pilot carrier is present. The program material could be monophonic or stereo. Yes, but the stereo demodulator blends to mono as the signal weakens. Mono demodulation needs far less signal to get a good signal to noise radio. And this isn't the stereo to mono auto switching the older demodulators used, it's a gradual blend without an abrupt shift. The system works quite well and I'm sure much of the time it's working as a mono demodulator on weak signal stereo programming. There isn't even a stereo-mono switch on the radio. It doesn't need one. I haven't kept up with developments. How is this blending accomplished? Maybe you could point me toward someone's FM demodulator chip. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: It's called a concept. I understand music bands have been engaged in the same process trying to sound louder than the other bands. Untrue. The "loudness" is done in mixdown and mastering. Most producers of contemporary music look for a heavy, dense sound. It is true. Take the cotton out of your ears. Of course it is done with track mixing. You think the musicians are compressing their physical instruments? Hilarious! You said the bands were responsible. They are not. And mixdown is a lot more than combining tracks at different levels... often individual instruments are processed individually to bring out a particular "sound" the producer is after. Again, it's not the band that makes thise decision in 99% of the cases. I have never laughed so much over a post! You are outdoing yourself today. People resort to MP3 to save disk space not because it sounds good. MP3 is not all the same as you can determine the level of compression. With terabyte HD's under $200 and 500 gig laptop drives at about $120 and various memory plug ins at 8 gigs for around $20, there is no need for 128 kbs MP3s... it's simply the de facto standard for consumer audio. MP3s are not overally intended always to save disk space. They are used at the high end (256 kbs and 320 kbs) to be infinitely portable and exchangable. A huge percentage of commercials come to stations now online and in MP3 format, and most promotional music is in MP3 format... everyone can play them, every system can use them. You are funny today. I'm not putting a computer in my car. The CD player plays CD's only so no MP3 in the car for me so i just burn my own CD's. And before you get all crazy dynamic range compression is not the same thing as data compression. I realize this. Dynamic range compression is the restriction of the audio content to a specific range. In this instance, I was discussing MP3's, not the air chain of a radio station. Again, the limited dynamic range is necessary to keep al program content above the noise level of the listening environment. Radio is not the same as listening to a CD. The old record were capable of around 80 dB and CD's are around 90 dB. I don't see why radio stations can't do 80 dB. The transmitters can handle 85% modulation. AM can handle 100% negative peaks, and most transmitters of the last few decades can do maybe 140% on positive peaks. FM transmitters can do way over 100% modulation, as the standard in the US is simply +/- 75 kHz deviation for the arbitrary 100% modulation. In fact, one can go to about 130% before receiver bandwidth shape factors make it start sounding ugly. Dynamic range is limited to make radio listenable in the typical environments radio is heard in. The dominant factor is in-car, where if you go beyond about 8 to 10 db noise masks some of the audio. So all other environments where radio is used are subject to the limits of the worst one, which is mostly in-car. And as for previous statements about table top radio with speakers only a foot apart being worthless for stereo these can generate decent stereo separation through electronic delay processing. I said no such thing, and you are lying. I said that many so-called stereo clock radios have speakers that are 3" to 4" apart, and unless you put your head within a few inches of the radio, the stereo effect is lost. Yeah whatever. Some have delay processing between the channels that can pretty good however far apart the speakers are and you don't need to stick your head up next to the radio for it to work. Hey, I just heard a spot for HD radio. I can answer it this way, American's are smart enough to stay away from it. Ha, ha. And you know so little about consumer behaviour that you should be written up as a case study. You are defiantly a very special case 6 dB man. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message . .. In article , Tom is clairying that the dynamic range of the FM system vs. the dynamic range of the program content broadcasters put into the system. As Tom says, about 95% of the time the material on air is somewhere in the vicinity of a 6 db dynamic range. Good thing he clarified that for you. You were looking pretty stupid. No, he clarified for you that the system may be capable of much wider dynamic range, but radio stations reduce the range of the content due to the requirements of the market. I had been saying all along that Brenda Ann's assesment of a dynamic range of about 6 db is the norm for program content, not for the system. A Porsche may be capable of 200 MPH, but the reality of the smoothness of roads, other traffic and legal restrictions makes the average owner keep it to 60 to 80 MPH at the top. FM is capable of a very wide dynamic range. Reality forces stations to limit the range of content. Hey there 6 dB man, he saved your lying butt. He saved your misinterpretation of the facts. He gave you a way out of your dumb assertions 6 dB man. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
dxAce wrote:
David 'Eduardo' Frackelton Gleason wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations does not permit that degree of dynamic range. Really? what is permissible then? Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio industry and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone doubter, are the one in need of attention. Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you. No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome. They simply may not be aware that you are a faux Hispanic and known pathological liar! The fake Miami speaks his words of non-wisdom - pot, kettle, black! JB |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
John Barnard wrote: dxAce wrote: David 'Eduardo' Frackelton Gleason wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: 6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB. Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations does not permit that degree of dynamic range. Really? what is permissible then? Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the US, but you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by your lonesome. You are nuts. As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio industry and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone doubter, are the one in need of attention. Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you. No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome. They simply may not be aware that you are a faux Hispanic and known pathological liar! The fake Miami speaks his words of non-wisdom - pot, kettle, black! Nothing fake about you, boy! You are indeed a dumbass Canuck! Now go have mommy tune that radio for you. |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
"Telamon" wrote in message ... I haven't kept up with developments. How is this blending accomplished? Maybe you could point me toward someone's FM demodulator chip. I believe the troublesome L-R signal is AGC controlled. Strong signal reception gets full L-R which gets reduced with decreasing signal strength, while the L+R signal remains at full strength with all signal levels. Anyway, here's one chip: http://eshop.engineering.uiowa.edu/N...9/DS007973.pdf Frank Dresser |
ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
In article ,
"Frank Dresser" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... I haven't kept up with developments. How is this blending accomplished? Maybe you could point me toward someone's FM demodulator chip. I believe the troublesome L-R signal is AGC controlled. Strong signal reception gets full L-R which gets reduced with decreasing signal strength, while the L+R signal remains at full strength with all signal levels. Anyway, here's one chip: http://eshop.engineering.uiowa.edu/N...9/DS007973.pdf I see page 7 has a curve showing 0 to just over 50 dB of separation. The chip was released back in 1987, interesting. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
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