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#1
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Fascism's Legacy: Liberalism
On 16 June, 00:31, Barry wrote:
Liberal fascism sounds like an oxymoron It doesn't 'sound like' an oxymoron....it is one! – or a term for conservatives to insult liberals. Well, let's say people who call themselves 'conservatives'. Genuine conservatives (on both sides of the Atlantic) have more sense. Actually, it was coined by a socialist writer, none other than the respected and influential left-winger H.G. Wells, who in 1931 called on fellow progressives to become "liberal fascists" and "enlightened Nazis." Really. Indeed. Let's explore this further.The origin of this garbage appears to be the following article. The citation is:- Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 35, No. 4, 541-558 (2000) (c) 2000 SAGE Publications H.G. Wells's 'Liberal Fascism' Philip Coupland University of Warwick, UK And here is the abstract:- "During the 1930s H.G. Wells's theory of revolutionary praxis centred around a concept of 'liberal fascism' whereby the Wellsian 'liberal' utopia would be achieved by an authoritarian élite. Taking inspiration from the militarized political movements of the 1930s, this marked a development in the Wellsian theory of revolution from the 'open conspiracy' of the 1920s. Although both communist and fascist movements evinced some of the desired qualities of a Wellsian vanguard, it was fascism rather than communism which came closest to Wells's ideal. However, in practice, despite the failure of approaches to parties of the left and centre as possible agents of revolution, Wells rejected the British Union of Fascists. The disparity between Wells's theory and his actions when faced by the reality of fascism echoes the unresolved tension between ends and means at the heart of the concept of 'liberal fascism'. " You will note the following points:- 'Liberal fascism' refers to a tactic of revolution - the imposition of a liberal revolution by means of an authoritarian coup by an elite (possibly commanding a militarised organisation). And there the resemblance ends....it has nothing whatever to do with the actual philosophy behind the revolution, which is still essentially liberal (in the sense of emancipatory) in nature. Note also that Wells would have nothing to do with actual fascists. Indeed, he was repelled by them. But you can see how a second rater like Goldberg might get things muddled ... His words, indeed, fit a much larger pattern of fusing socialism with fascism: Mussolini was a leading socialist figure who, during World War I, turned away from internationalism in favor of Italian nationalism and called the blend Fascism. Which had nothing in common with socialism. He had the Matteoti, the italian socialist leader murdered. Likewise, Hitler headed the National Socialist German Workers Party. Which also had nothing in common with socialism. He put the Social Democrats in concentration camps. These facts jar Actually, they only do to political illiterates like Goldberg and yourself... because they contradict the political spectrum that has shaped our worldview since the late 1930s, which places communism at the far left, followed by socialism, liberalism in the center, conservatism, and then fascism on the far right. But this spectrum, Jonah Goldberg points out in his brilliant, profound, and original new book, Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning (Doubleday), It's actually a pile of crap that was panned in the serious media. reflects Stalin's use of fascist as an epithet to discredit anyone he wished – Trotsky, Churchill, Russian peasants – and distorts reality. Already in 1946, George Orwell noted that fascism had degenerated to signify "something not desirable." Orwell was referring to its use as an insult! So what! We all know that it is used unthinkingly as an insult. Goldberg's book is still crap, though. To understand fascism in its full expression requires putting aside Stalin's misrepresentation of the term and also look beyond the Holocaust, and instead return to the period Goldberg terms the "fascist moment," roughly 1910-35. A statist ideology, If you define 'stae' as part of a corporate entity, a vision of society... fascism uses politics as the tool to transform society from atomized individuals into an organic whole. Well, so does (genuine) conservatism! Or haven't you notices? The difference is that fascism utilises race as the ultimate poltical solvent, and (in some versions) outlines a theory of a so-called revolution. It does so by exalting the state over the individual, expert knowledge over democracy, enforced consensus over debate, and socialism over capitalism. True socialism is about individual emancipation. Fascism is the exact opposite. It is totalitarian in Mussolini's original meaning of the term, of "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State." Fascism's message boils down to "Enough talk, more action!" Its lasting appeal is getting things done. In contrast, conservatism calls for limited government, Not all versions do. individualism, democratic debate, and capitalism. Its appeal is liberty and leaving citizens alone. That isn't always the case. You see, the problem is that Godberg is American. All his concepts belong to parts of the American right. That's why some reviewers say that he doesn't understand fascism, which stands in a European political tradition. Goldberg's triumph is establishing the kinship between communism, fascism, and liberalism. Which he cannot do, because such kinship does not exist. All derive from the same tradition that goes back to the Jacobins of the French Revolution. Really? And not Thomas Acquinas? Or Aristotle? His revised political spectrum would focus on the role of the state and go from libertarianism to conservatism to fascism in its many guises – American, Italian, German, Russian, Chinese, Cuban, and so on. Cuban fascism???? (Rest of sh*t deleted.) Boy, you people are in trouble!!!!! Dr. Barry Worthington |
#2
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(OT) : Try to use 1930s Definitions to Deny that Liberal-Fascism DoesExist in the 21st Century is an Tired Old Argument.
On Jun 16, 3:27*am, "Dr. Barry Worthington"
wrote: On 16 June, 00:31, Barry wrote: Liberal fascism sounds like an oxymoron It doesn't 'sound like' an oxymoron....it is one! – or a term for conservatives to insult liberals. Well, let's say people who call themselves 'conservatives'. Genuine conservatives (on both sides of the Atlantic) have more sense. Actually, it was coined by a socialist writer, none other than the respected and influential left-winger H.G. Wells, who in 1931 called on fellow progressives to become "liberal fascists" and "enlightened Nazis." Really. Indeed. Let's explore this further.The origin of this garbage appears to be the following article. The citation is:- Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 35, No. 4, 541-558 (2000) (c) 2000 SAGE Publications H.G. Wells's 'Liberal Fascism' Philip Coupland University of Warwick, UK And here is the abstract:- "During the 1930s H.G. Wells's theory of revolutionary praxis centred around a concept of 'liberal fascism' whereby the Wellsian 'liberal' utopia would be achieved by an authoritarian élite. Taking inspiration from the militarized political movements of the 1930s, this marked a development in the Wellsian theory of revolution from the 'open conspiracy' of the 1920s. Although both communist and fascist movements evinced some of the desired qualities of a Wellsian vanguard, it was fascism rather than communism which came closest to Wells's ideal. However, in practice, despite the failure of approaches to parties of the left and centre as possible agents of revolution, Wells rejected the British Union of Fascists. The disparity between Wells's theory and his actions when faced by the reality of fascism echoes the unresolved tension between ends and means at the heart of the concept of 'liberal fascism'. " You will note the following points:- 'Liberal fascism' refers to a tactic of revolution - the imposition of a liberal revolution by means of an authoritarian coup by an elite (possibly commanding a militarised organisation). And there the resemblance ends....it has nothing whatever to do with the actual philosophy behind the revolution, which is still essentially liberal (in the sense of emancipatory) in nature. Note also that Wells would have nothing to do with actual fascists. Indeed, he was repelled by them. But you can see how a second rater like Goldberg might get things muddled ... His words, indeed, fit a much larger pattern of fusing socialism with fascism: Mussolini was a leading socialist figure who, during World War I, turned away from internationalism in favor of Italian nationalism and called the blend Fascism. Which had nothing in common with socialism. He had the Matteoti, the italian socialist leader murdered. *Likewise, Hitler headed the National Socialist German Workers Party. Which also had nothing in common with socialism. He put the Social Democrats in concentration camps. These facts jar Actually, they only do to political illiterates like Goldberg and yourself... because they contradict the political spectrum that has shaped our worldview since the late 1930s, which places communism at the far left, followed by socialism, liberalism in the center, conservatism, and then fascism on the far right. But this spectrum, Jonah Goldberg points out in his brilliant, profound, and original new book, Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning (Doubleday), It's actually a pile of crap that was panned in the serious media. reflects Stalin's use of fascist as an epithet to discredit anyone he wished – Trotsky, Churchill, Russian peasants – and distorts reality. Already in 1946, George Orwell noted that fascism had degenerated to signify "something not desirable." Orwell was referring to its use as an insult! So what! We all know that it is used unthinkingly as an insult. Goldberg's book is still crap, though. To understand fascism in its full expression requires putting aside Stalin's misrepresentation of the term and also look beyond the Holocaust, and instead return to the period Goldberg terms the "fascist moment," roughly 1910-35. A statist ideology, If you define 'stae' as part of a corporate entity, a vision of society... fascism uses politics as the tool to transform society from atomized individuals into an organic whole. Well, so does (genuine) conservatism! Or haven't you notices? The difference is that fascism utilises race as the ultimate poltical solvent, and (in some versions) outlines a theory of a so-called revolution. It does so by exalting the state over the individual, expert knowledge over democracy, enforced consensus over debate, and socialism over capitalism. True socialism is about individual emancipation. Fascism is the exact opposite. *It is totalitarian in Mussolini's original meaning of the term, of "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State." Fascism's message boils down to "Enough talk, more action!" Its lasting appeal is getting things done. In contrast, conservatism calls for limited government, Not all versions do. *individualism, democratic debate, and capitalism. Its appeal is liberty and leaving citizens alone. That isn't always the case. You see, the problem is that Godberg is American. All his concepts belong to parts of the American right. That's why some reviewers say that he doesn't understand fascism, which stands in a European political tradition. Goldberg's triumph is establishing the kinship between communism, fascism, and liberalism. Which he cannot do, because such kinship does not exist. All derive from the same tradition that goes back to the Jacobins of the French Revolution. Really? And not Thomas Acquinas? Or Aristotle? His revised political spectrum would focus on the role of the state and go from libertarianism to conservatism to fascism in its many guises – American, Italian, German, Russian, Chinese, Cuban, and so on. Cuban fascism???? (Rest of sh*t deleted.) Boy, you people are in trouble!!!!! Dr. Barry Worthington DrBW, Try to use 1930s Definitions to Deny that Liberal-Fascism Does Exist in the 21st Century is an Tired Old Argument. -ps- Yeah We Got Trouble Right Here In Liberal City ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Fascism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Goldberg http://liberalfascism.nationalreview.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsFoiVZDSRs "Everything You Know About Fascism Is Wrong" http://books.google.com/books?id=wHi...snum=7#PPA7,M1 |
#3
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Fascism's Legacy: Liberalism
Dr. Barry Worthington wrote:
Indeed. Let's explore this further.The origin of this garbage appears to be the following article. Casting pearls before swine, Doctor? mike -- __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / / / /\ \/ /\'Think tanks cleaned cheap' /\ \/ / /_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ Densa International© For the OTHER two percent. Due to the insane amount of spam and garbage, I block all postings with a Gmail, Google Mail, Google Groups or HOTMAIL address. I also filter everything from a .cn server. For solutions which may work for you, please check: http://improve-usenet.org/ |
#4
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Fascism's Legacy: Liberalism
On Jun 16, 9:15*am, m II wrote:
Dr. Barry Worthington wrote: Indeed. Let's explore this further.The origin of this garbage appears to be the following article. - Casting pearls before swine, Doctor? - - mike Try to use 1930s Definitions to Deny that Liberal-Fascism Does Exist in the 21st Century is an Tired Old Argument. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...d91b4a2e4429c9 -- * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * / /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ / */ /\ \/ /\'Think tanks cleaned cheap' /\ \/ / /_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ * * * * * * *Densa International© * * * * * For the OTHER two percent. * Due to the insane amount of spam and garbage, *I block all postings with a Gmail, Google Mail, * * * *Google Groups or HOTMAIL address. * *I also filter everything from a .cn server. For solutions which may work for you, please check: * * * * * *http://improve-usenet.org/ |
#5
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Fascism's Legacy: Liberalism
On 16 June, 17:20, "~ RHF" wrote:
On Jun 16, 9:15*am, m II wrote: Dr. Barry Worthington wrote: Indeed. Let's explore this further.The origin of this garbage appears to be the following article. - Casting pearls before swine, Doctor? - - mike Try to use 1930s Definitions to Deny that Liberal-Fascism Does Exist in the 21st Century is an Tired Old Argument.http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...d91b4a2e4429c9 I have tried to respond to your original reply, but the system will not let me. So I will answer here. Firstly, I expect you to answer the points that I made in my posting. If you cannot, I am not prepared to to deal with a lot of citations from a variety of sites that appear to be hagiography of Jonah Goldberg. Do you have an opinion on the Coupland article? Or are you just conent to parrot any amount of junk? Secondly, I should point out that a number of us have had problems with the wikipedia site entry for Liberal Fascism, since someone is determined to revert material that is posted about H.G. Wells on this matter. Dr. Barry Worthington -- * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * *__ * / /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ /\ */ / */ /\ \/ /\'Think tanks cleaned cheap' /\ \/ / /_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ *\/_/ * * * * * * *Densa International© * * * * * For the OTHER two percent. * Due to the insane amount of spam and garbage, *I block all postings with a Gmail, Google Mail, * * * *Google Groups or HOTMAIL address. * *I also filter everything from a .cn server. For solutions which may work for you, please check: * * * * * *http://improve-usenet.org/- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#6
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Fascism's Legacy: Liberalism
On Jun 16, 5:27*am, "Dr. Barry Worthington"
wrote: (Rest of sh*t deleted.) Boy, you people are in trouble!!!!! Dr. Barry Worthington And it's all your fault! Yet ANOTHER Liberal Fascist! Name: Dr. Barry Worthington Location: Abertay University, Dundee - (rolling eyes) Title: Tourism Lecturer - bwaHAHAHAHAHA! Industry: Education - Liberal Fascism Email address: About me: "I AM A SOCIALIST" - ROTFLMAO! Ja, on the road to serfdom - HEIL HITLER HerR Professor! pffft-bwaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! |
#7
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Fascism's Legacy: Liberalism
On Jun 16, 5:27*am, "Dr. Barry Worthington"
wrote: On 16 June, 00:31, Barry wrote: Liberal fascism sounds like an oxymoron It doesn't 'sound like' an oxymoron....it is one! They're still pushing Goldbergs imbecilic claim that Mussolini's "Ultimate merging of state and corporate power" is liberal. Well, somebody forgot to tell the Republicans, because that was the meaning of life for them for the last eight years. Letting corporations run an extremely militaristic government while letting them set policy, carry out wars-for-profit, letting them write their own legislation and then letting them sponge off the taxpayers after they looted the country is not even distantly related to that capitalism hating liberalism we're always hearing about and being accused of fostering. It should also be noted that the same people pushing this line of BS are simultaneously calling Obama a Marxist. This isn't even worth arguing about. It's just another piece of right wing driftwood, like "The Holocaust museum shooter was a liberal" or "Obama is a secret Muslim." |
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