On 07/02/09 15:48, Brenda Ann wrote:

2) There is NO mp3 player that can as accurately reproduce a complex audio
waveform as well as a high end cassette machine. I don't care how many
samples you take of a complex waveform with an ADC/DAC system, the resultant
playback waveform will never represent the original analog waveform as well
as a high end analog device. Even a simple 1000 Hz sine wave will not come
out as a pure sine wave after digital conversion, it will be a series of
stepped square waves. You may not be able to tell the difference with your
ear, as long as there are enough of those little steps, but that's not the
point. The point is, it will not "run circles around" a high end analog
device.





If you take a look at a 1khz square wave after digital
conversion, you'll see ringing at both ends of the flat top. You'll
see that same ringing wherever there is a hard rise or fall. Is it
audible? Oh yeah. More so on a naked square wave. Less so in complex
music. But you can hear it.

You'll see this wherever there is hard digital filtering, such as
anti-aliasing on CD players. You'll see it where there is copious
amount of data loss, as in MP3.

An MP3, at it's best is a 4:1 data loss. The songs on iTunes and
elsewhere are mostly 10:1 data loss. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

Noise may be reduced, but it's hardly high fidelity audio. And
though cassettes have their many flaws, a properly set up Nak will
have more noise, but far less digital artifacting and zero data loss
than any MP3.

I have a few old reel to reel tape recorders/players.Two of them were
made by Webcor, they look just alike each other.One of my other reel to
reel tape recorders/player is larger than the Webcors and it has three
speeds.I own several other old much smaller reel to reel tape
recorders/players too.I bought all of them at thrift stores and flea
markets years and years ago.
cuhulin

On Jul 2, 3:48*pm, "Brenda Ann" wrote:
I don't care how many
samples you take of a complex waveform with an ADC/DAC system, the resultant
playback waveform will never represent the original analog waveform as well
as a high end analog device. Even a simple 1000 Hz sine wave will not come
out as a pure sine wave after digital conversion, it will be a series of
stepped square waves. You may not be able to tell the difference with your
ear, as long as there are enough of those little steps, but that's not the
point. The point is, it will not "run circles around" a high end analog
device.

Nonsense.

Format 1 bit DSD (Direct Stream Digital)
Sampling frequency 2.8224 MHz
Dynamic range 120 dB
Frequency range 20 Hz - 50 kHz

The SACD format is capable of delivering a dynamic range of 120 dB
from 20 Hz to 20 kHz and an extended frequency response up to 100 kHz!
Try to duplicate that with any "high-end analog device".

Quantum physicists state the universe is digital. It is your inferior
sensory organs which can not resolve the digital universe.
Get over it! Radio is the enemy - ANALog is dead!

"0baMa0 Tse Dung" wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 3:48 pm, "Brenda Ann" wrote:
I don't care how many
samples you take of a complex waveform with an ADC/DAC system, the
resultant
playback waveform will never represent the original analog waveform as
well
as a high end analog device. Even a simple 1000 Hz sine wave will not come
out as a pure sine wave after digital conversion, it will be a series of
stepped square waves. You may not be able to tell the difference with your
ear, as long as there are enough of those little steps, but that's not the
point. The point is, it will not "run circles around" a high end analog
device.

Nonsense.

Format 1 bit DSD (Direct Stream Digital)
Sampling frequency 2.8224 MHz
Dynamic range 120 dB
Frequency range 20 Hz - 50 kHz

The SACD format is capable of delivering a dynamic range of 120 dB
from 20 Hz to 20 kHz and an extended frequency response up to 100 kHz!
Try to duplicate that with any "high-end analog device".


Sorry. Apples and oranges.

I once built a two transistor pre-amp that was flat from 10 Hz to over 2
MHz. Thing is, it didn't have all that good of a distortion figure.
Digitally reproduced analog waveforms have distortion. There is simply no
way around it. You cannot make a true, perfect sine waveform out of a bunch
of square waves. It can't be done.

Further, the universe is most certainly not digital. About the closest thing
you get to digital in the universe is a hydrogen atom. But even the radio
frequency wave output from a hydrogen atom is a sine wave: analog. Digital
can only be a representation, in various degrees of fidelity, of an analog
signal.

In article
,
0baMa0 Tse Dung wrote:

On Jul 2, 3:48*pm, "Brenda Ann" wrote:
I don't care how many
samples you take of a complex waveform with an ADC/DAC system, the resultant
playback waveform will never represent the original analog waveform as well
as a high end analog device. Even a simple 1000 Hz sine wave will not come
out as a pure sine wave after digital conversion, it will be a series of
stepped square waves. You may not be able to tell the difference with your
ear, as long as there are enough of those little steps, but that's not the
point. The point is, it will not "run circles around" a high end analog
device.

Nonsense.

Format 1 bit DSD (Direct Stream Digital)
Sampling frequency 2.8224 MHz
Dynamic range 120 dB
Frequency range 20 Hz - 50 kHz

The SACD format is capable of delivering a dynamic range of 120 dB
from 20 Hz to 20 kHz and an extended frequency response up to 100 kHz!
Try to duplicate that with any "high-end analog device".

Quantum physicists state the universe is digital. It is your inferior
sensory organs which can not resolve the digital universe.
Get over it! Radio is the enemy - ANALog is dead!

The universe is analog not digital so you get over it. Quantum physics
stating the universe is digital is an oversimplification at best and I'm
being very generous.

By the way, you have already been assimilated by the analog borg.

Radio is my hobby.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Jul 2, 5:44*am, dave wrote:
LukeP wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:57 pm, Barry wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...7/01/BU2618GKE....

What's an iPod?

I read the article also. *Most people look at the cassette as
equivalent withthe *8-track tape. *But I bet these same people would
be shocked to find out that some of the better cassette decks had way
better specs than a Ipod. *I have seen some of the Naks with freq.
response to 27 khz and my Denon, which was a mid-level deck, has freq.
response to 23 or 24 which I know is more than you can squeeze from
digital at even the highest bit rate. *I'm just sayin'..........

Sad. *You can't hear much above 10 K; *why do you care about 24?

You can buy a credible MP3 player for $20 that'll run circles around
your POS Nakamichi.

Reality check!

I have yet to respond to any post on this group in over a year, but
after 34 years in high end audio (sales, technical sales training,
product planning and development on three continents...) I couldn't
resist...

Frequency range has very little to do with it. ANYTHING that
compresses by any form of digital "bit grooming" can loose vital
information. Case in point... A fairly high priced MP3 recorder/
player with minidisc and computer MP3 capabilities managed to lose the
bells (actually a glockenspiel, I believe) at the beginning of a
Phoebe Snow track that I used as a demo for years (many other
examples, but this is a case in point). Digital compression can lose
textures, details, imaging, transient information in ways that is
COMPLETELY foreign to the human psycho-acoustic mechanism. Our ears
and brain can "fill in" information lost by anything as natural and
simple as bandwidth limiting, BECAUSE IT HAPPENS IN NATURE ALL THE
TIME! If we, as a species, have had to deal with bandwidth limiting
by something as simple as distance or intervening materials such as a
drape or some walls, etc., WE HAVE ACHIEVED THE ABILITY TO RECONSTRUCT
THE MISSING HARMONIC INFORMATION. And we can pull information out of
the noise floor of analog recordings by dithering.

I used one of the few decks that can trump all of those mentioned
above (although the Nakamichi units were excellent), the Tandberg
3014A, and have been able to produce recordings that (on over
$60,000.00 of amps and speakers) rivaled the very best digital
technology available at the time (2005 or so), and was only lacking
compared to an excellent virgin vinyl LP on $10,000 worth of
turntable.

As for bandwidth and digital technology... Anything that has a bit
rate as high as SACD or Meridian lossless packing on DVD Audio can
produce a bandwidth of 50 kHz and beyond. And that is your best hope
of achieving a recording that can compete with high end analog,
PERIOD! I have some SACD remasters of mid-1960 Rolling Stones
recordings that sound BETTER than the British virgin vinyl recordings
of the exact same performances. Of course, digital is quieter, but
I've already mentioned that we can dither significant information that
is below the noise floor in an analog recording. The "noise floor" in
a digital recording is the point of no return. NOTHING exists there,
it's all truncated. Ignored!

I know of NO MP3 device that can compete with the best Tandberg,
Nakamichi, Harman Kardon 400 series CD recorder regardless of the bit
rate. THEY DO NOT EXIST!

And a truly audiophile turntable with a moving coil cartridge can
trump any of the above in most respects, but that's another
subject...

On Jul 3, 10:09*pm, guyo wrote:

And a truly audiophile turntable with a moving coil cartridge can
trump any of the above in most respects, but that's another
subject...

Maybe so but the price is prohibitive except for the elite
billionaire.

For far, far less dinero a very decent SA-CD player, a modest 5.1
channel surround sound amplifier, and 5 mid-priced full range speakers
and subwoofer will equal the best mucho dinero mega-bucks elite vinyl
sound system TO THE VAST MAJORITY of listeners.

A very good Universal SACD/CD/DVD player can be had for for $200-$600
A very good 5.1 / 7.1 channel home theatre amplifier can be had for
$1000-$2000
A very good set of 5 indentical full-range speakers can be had for
about $2500 used (recommended on a budget) or at least double for new
speakers.
A very good subwoofer for about $1000.

TOTAL for an very good "audiophile system for the rest of us" - less
than $10,000.
And if you are prudent you can do it for half that price. (Used
audiophile speakers are a bargain.) Well within reach of most
"working" music lovers.

If you are foolish enough to spent money on a vinyl LP system and
expect to surpass the above $5K-$10K system than you had better take
on a second or third job.
Marry into a wealthy family. Pray and play the lottery or rob a bank -
LOL!

On Jul 2, 2:08*am, LukeP wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:57*pm, Barry wrote:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...7/01/BU2618GKE....

What's an iPod?

I read the article also. *Most people look at the cassette as
equivalent withthe *8-track tape. *But I bet these same people would
be shocked to find out that some of the better cassette decks had way
better specs than a Ipod. *I have seen some of the Naks with freq.
response to 27 khz and my Denon, which was a mid-level deck, has freq.
response to 23 or 24 which I know is more than you can squeeze from
digital at even the highest bit rate. *I'm just sayin'..........

Get yourself a Super-Audio CD player and buy SA-CDs. Now that will
blow your socks off!
SA-CDs are the closest sound to the original studio master tapes:
www.sa-cd.net

On Jul 2, 3:28*am, Bob Dobbs wrote:
LukeP wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:57*pm, Barry wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...7/01/BU2618GKE....

What's an iPod?

I read the article also. *Most people look at the cassette as
equivalent withthe *8-track tape. *But I bet these same people would
be shocked to find out that some of the better cassette decks had way
better specs than a Ipod. *I have seen some of the Naks with freq.
response to 27 khz and my Denon, which was a mid-level deck, has freq.
response to 23 or 24 which I know is more than you can squeeze from
digital at even the highest bit rate. *I'm just sayin'..........

Not a Nakamichi, nor a Denon, but an admittedly above average Sony, mine
will wind off a bit of tape from the spool, record two tones, rewind and
evaluate to determine the exact bias for that particular formula tape,
and when combined with the headroom expanding version of Dolby (HX-Pro)
can deliver frequencies way above my current range. The sound level
meter shows output from the speakers buy I can't hear it.

--

Operator Bob
Echo Charlie 42

I think I mentioned this kid six or seven months
ago in here. But there is this kid on youtube,
goes by "CassetteMaster"....he definitely has
a love for bringing back to life older cassette
players / eight tracks....just about anything.

It's good to see IMO, a kid with the love he has
for the older electronics.