"Gray Guest" wrote in message
44.100...
"Scout" wrote in
:



"Gray Guest" wrote in message
44.100...
"Scout" wrote in
news:j6182n :



"Gray Guest" wrote in message
44.100...
"Scout" wrote in
:



"RD Sandman" wrote in message
...
"Scout" wrote in
:



"BDK" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
says...

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith
wrote:

.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....

good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc.
Could
stop 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or
save your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the
conspirators want you silenced!

http://bondarmsusa.com/

(make sure you watch the video!)

Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!

Regards,
JS

**** that. This is a much better weapon.

http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/index.html

Five shots, better reload time, much more accurate.

Leave it to Johnny Kook to pick a POS like a Bond Arms 2 shot.

Dozens of better guns out there.

Depends on what you're after.

On a shot per shot basis, the .410 is going to deliver more to
target.

effectively ten 30 caliber pellets to target in the time it takes
to pull the trigger twice.

A .410 handgun round contains 8 or 9 pellets if it is a #4 shot.

That's about right, the problem is you lose space because the
pellets are staggered. Thus a lot of the shell capacity is empty
air.

It
contains 3 pellets if it is 000 which is approximately .36 caliber.

Maybe a few brands, but if you look around even in 2.5" you can get
4 pellets.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...ctNumber=53316
6

and in 3" (which I believe I mentioned somewhere) you get 5 pellets.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=170759

and .36 matches up nicely with the .357 caliber of the .38 and .357.


A
12ga shoots about 9 pellets in 00.

Again, with the 12, you lose capacity because the pellets are
staggered.

In the .410 they are neatly lined up, making maximum use of the
available space.

Use a buffered shot and you will get a nice tight group at close
ranges.

Whereas the Ruger is going to take 5 trigger pulls, a reload, and
than
another 5 trigger pulls.

Nope. Go back and revisit the .410 load fired by a Judge.

Are you talking the regular Judge or the 3" Judge?

One gives you 4 pellets of triple aught, the other gives you 5.

The Bondarm's Century 2000 derringer, the gun under discussion,
accepts up to a 3" .410 shell.

Hence the 5 pellets discussed.

Of course, you could also load in a .410 with 5 pellets of 0000 buck
(0.375). Of course, you're probably going to need to mail order
those, and I think only a few manufacturers even make them.

:-)

That's not to say that one is a better gun than the other, but as
in so much it depends on what you're looking for it to do.

Also the .410 loading is generally reported to have a fairly high
1 shot stop percentage, since you are usually effectively hitting
the target multiple times in 1 shot.

Three, if all impact and you are shooting 000 buck.

Actually even if more than 1 hit, you will still be hitting the
target multiple times. :-)

However, if that's the case, odds are you didn't hit much of
consequence
unless you're talking the head.


You need to fire
both barrels in a Bond 2 shot to equal the number of rounds in an
SP-101.

Uh, an SP-101 in .38/.357 only holds 5 rounds. That's equal to the
number of pellets of triple or quad aught buck in a 3" shell.

So you would have to fire until empty, reload, and then empty again,
your SP101 to get an equal number of lead pieces headed downrange to
match those produced by 2 pulls of the Bond's trigger.

:-)

Based on reports and testing, the rounds that produce the best one
shot stops are those that produce a nice hydrostatic shock wave in
the
blood pressure that effectively shuts down the brain for a period
of time. Now that's not to say they are going to stay down, only
that they are going to drop on the first shot and stay down for a
bit. Shotguns do this quite effectively since they tend to dump a
large part of their energy to a broad section of the body inducing
such a hydrostatic shock. This, of course, depends upon a
reasonably direct impact to center mass.

So it all depends on your preferences, choices, and so on.

This is true.

My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO
makes it less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which
again IMO makes it easier to conceal than a revolver.

True with the Bond derringer, not so with a Taurus Judge or the
S&W.

Well, I wasn't intending this to be an in-depth review of all the
variations, only contesting Dudu's immediate and apparently
arbitrary dismissal of the Century 2000 as being unsuitable for self
defense, and challenging each of his talking points to establish
that.

About the only point that was really valid was the accuracy issue,
but at self defense ranges a gun doesn't need to be particularly
accurate hence my noting it as pretty much a moot point.






Honestly, after several years of looking at derringers and some of
the absurd calibers they come in, I find it hard to fault the choice
of any lightweight J frame. The more serious calibers are often as
wide and nearly
as long and always weigh more. Mine hides very well and while
reloading isn't really an issue at close range (IMO) reloading a
derringer can be
a
PITA. I bought some Speed Strips and I can carry the J-Frame and 2
Speed strips very comfortably. I really only would carry it if the
908 or G-19 was impractical for some reason, though.

Different strokes for different folks. Doesn't mean a derringer in
.410
is
the automatically bad choice Dudu tried to assert.

You have your preferences, I have mine, Dudu has his, and John has
his.

But a .410 is a proven performer.



Undoubtedly, I have merely stated my preference.

Dogmatism amongst gun owners is amusing and frequently annoying.
Especially
when paired with innaccurate information. 8)

Which I think is the point I'm trying to make. We all have preferences,
and just because John has one preference and Dudu another, doesn't
justify his assertion that this derringer isn't suitable.



Well, would you truly expect Doodoo to be rational or even courteous about
anything?

A very valid point, I will grant you.

"Gray Guest" wrote in message
44.100...
"Scout" wrote in
:



"Thomas Heger" wrote in message
...
Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:
Thomas wrote in news:9ei6ptFeh9U1
@mid.individual.net:

Am 28.09.2011 23:05, schrieb Gray Guest:
Thomas wrote in news:9eh1fuFakeU1
@mid.individual.net:

Am 28.09.2011 01:29, schrieb John Smith:
.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....

good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could
stop
'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save
your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators
want you silenced!

Civil war in the US would be really terrible. (And I have doubt,
that such handguns would be the weapons of choice.)

Better would be to prevent havoc.

I think, that violence isn't the right way. People would better try
to reacquire control about all elements of the society: the
communities, politics, education, health-care, nutrition,
transportation, military and even entertainment.

In all these fields, there are people involved, that do not want
their country destroyed. But there are also 'bad guys', that like
misery, violence, sickness and dirt.

If you want nicer people, you had to clean your (personal!)
environment,
remove the rubble, overpaint the graffiti, disallow drug
trafficking, rethink education, watch less tv, cook your own food,
walk, smile - but
don't carry a gun around.

To regain control you need to start with local affairs and
reorganise, what is in reach. Do not let any dubious character have
any influence
on
any public office. To identify such persons is difficult, but some
characteristics you certainly don't want to have at - say - a
teacher. For example membership in any sort of 'secret society' is
definitely not acceptable or massive tattoos, drug consume, sexual
disorder, known
violence or extremistic political opinions.

Such persons are generally a threat to more 'usual' people, because
they
are too boring for their sick brains.


TH


The resort to violence however is sometimes thrust upon people. The
evil,
the criminal and the aggressor has their own aganda. No amount of
conciliation can deter them, only answering kind with kind.

You are refered to the 1930s for an example of wooly headed peace
with honor stupidity and where it led. Had Europe stood up to Hitler
any time
between 1936 and 1938 the conflagaration of 1939 to 1945 could have
been
avoided.

Sometimes a small amount of preemptive violence is preferable to
large amounts of avoidable violence.


The armament of the American society is most likely the greatest
stumbling block for globalistic self-proclaimed fascistic elite.

But these arms are not to be used, because in a real fight, the
professionals are better off than you with a handgun.

But people could 'take it back'. I mean 'the real life', the
communities, local affairs, education and so forth. It is all about
people and how they behave. People should know, that certain things
are not allowed and should not be done.

Drugs of all sorts feed the 'bad guys', so you should try to avoid
any drugs - at least not pay for them. This because the money for the
drugs goes into the wrong canals and supports the criminals and
unwanted behaviour.

Any person without a shelter is a thread to public health. So it is
mandatory to allow every person access to soap and water, some sort
of housing and food.

Any kind of toxic waste should be removed from public places, to
allow kids safe play in their neighbourhood.

Public land should be accessible. Even farmland should be allowed to
enter for pedestrians, that just want to pass.

To create a strong society based on civil affairs, the industry and
the smaller companies had to be protected.

The Americans fought endless wars without apparent reason and without
apparent benefit. Many think, these wars are somehow good for
America. But - for example- what kind of benefit do you expect from
the invasion of Afghanistan, Somalia, Irak? It always ends like
Vietnam: with a lot of dead soldiers and no real gain.

TH


The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.

Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?

'The art of war'
old Chinese philosophy of government.

But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.

I have trouble to understand the idea, that people think, they have to
defend themselves against the own government.

I take it then you're not a student of history?


I mean, not only with words, but with real guns. Ain't these
professionals the own soldiers? How could soldiers even consider to
fight against their own people?

I accept this as confirmation you know next to nothing about history.


They get brainwashed, for sure. But even zombies on drugs would
remember, were they came from. Or is that about money? Well, 'rip off
the pharao' was the favourite game of the Egyptian 'priests'.

Or are there religious motives?





Considering what an education costs today, WTF are they teaching? A good
case of malpractice and/or deceptive practices lurks here.

Yes, one can only wonder how a German manages to take history and miss the
whole part about Hitler and what he did to various classes of German
citizens (as well as citizens of other countries).

"Scout" wrote in news:j63cdo
:



"Gray Guest" wrote in message
44.100...
"Scout" wrote in
:



"Thomas Heger" wrote in message
...
Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:
Thomas wrote in news:9ei6ptFeh9U1
@mid.individual.net:

Am 28.09.2011 23:05, schrieb Gray Guest:
Thomas wrote in news:9eh1fuFakeU1
@mid.individual.net:

Am 28.09.2011 01:29, schrieb John Smith:
.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....

good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc.
Could
stop
'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save
your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators
want you silenced!

Civil war in the US would be really terrible. (And I have doubt,
that such handguns would be the weapons of choice.)

Better would be to prevent havoc.

I think, that violence isn't the right way. People would better
try
to reacquire control about all elements of the society: the
communities, politics, education, health-care, nutrition,
transportation, military and even entertainment.

In all these fields, there are people involved, that do not want
their country destroyed. But there are also 'bad guys', that like
misery, violence, sickness and dirt.

If you want nicer people, you had to clean your (personal!)
environment,
remove the rubble, overpaint the graffiti, disallow drug
trafficking, rethink education, watch less tv, cook your own food,
walk, smile - but
don't carry a gun around.

To regain control you need to start with local affairs and
reorganise, what is in reach. Do not let any dubious character
have
any influence
on
any public office. To identify such persons is difficult, but some
characteristics you certainly don't want to have at - say - a
teacher. For example membership in any sort of 'secret society'
is
definitely not acceptable or massive tattoos, drug consume, sexual
disorder, known
violence or extremistic political opinions.

Such persons are generally a threat to more 'usual' people,
because
they
are too boring for their sick brains.


TH


The resort to violence however is sometimes thrust upon people. The
evil,
the criminal and the aggressor has their own aganda. No amount of
conciliation can deter them, only answering kind with kind.

You are refered to the 1930s for an example of wooly headed peace
with honor stupidity and where it led. Had Europe stood up to
Hitler
any time
between 1936 and 1938 the conflagaration of 1939 to 1945 could have
been
avoided.

Sometimes a small amount of preemptive violence is preferable to
large amounts of avoidable violence.


The armament of the American society is most likely the greatest
stumbling block for globalistic self-proclaimed fascistic elite.

But these arms are not to be used, because in a real fight, the
professionals are better off than you with a handgun.

But people could 'take it back'. I mean 'the real life', the
communities, local affairs, education and so forth. It is all about
people and how they behave. People should know, that certain things
are not allowed and should not be done.

Drugs of all sorts feed the 'bad guys', so you should try to avoid
any drugs - at least not pay for them. This because the money for
the
drugs goes into the wrong canals and supports the criminals and
unwanted behaviour.

Any person without a shelter is a thread to public health. So it is
mandatory to allow every person access to soap and water, some sort
of housing and food.

Any kind of toxic waste should be removed from public places, to
allow kids safe play in their neighbourhood.

Public land should be accessible. Even farmland should be allowed to
enter for pedestrians, that just want to pass.

To create a strong society based on civil affairs, the industry and
the smaller companies had to be protected.

The Americans fought endless wars without apparent reason and
without
apparent benefit. Many think, these wars are somehow good for
America. But - for example- what kind of benefit do you expect from
the invasion of Afghanistan, Somalia, Irak? It always ends like
Vietnam: with a lot of dead soldiers and no real gain.

TH


The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.

Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?

'The art of war'
old Chinese philosophy of government.

But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.

I have trouble to understand the idea, that people think, they have to
defend themselves against the own government.

I take it then you're not a student of history?


I mean, not only with words, but with real guns. Ain't these
professionals the own soldiers? How could soldiers even consider to
fight against their own people?

I accept this as confirmation you know next to nothing about history.


They get brainwashed, for sure. But even zombies on drugs would
remember, were they came from. Or is that about money? Well, 'rip off
the pharao' was the favourite game of the Egyptian 'priests'.

Or are there religious motives?





Considering what an education costs today, WTF are they teaching? A good
case of malpractice and/or deceptive practices lurks here.

Yes, one can only wonder how a German manages to take history and miss
the
whole part about Hitler and what he did to various classes of German
citizens (as well as citizens of other countries).




Maybe he was asleep that day.

Germans don't get to lecture anybody about people fearing government for at
least 500 years.

--
Words of wisdom

What does not kill you... probably didn't cause enough tissue damage.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:58:29 +0000 (UTC), Gray Guest
wrote:


[. . .]

But to change the subject and the subject line....
I am looking for a good and readable intro to US Civics for a friend who
is going to become a US citizen.
He wants more than just to pass the test - which he's already fully
qualified to do
He wants more in depth analysis and commentary
In a way, I wish that Isaac Asimov had written a book on this comparable
to his Guide to the Bible..
it would have been a hell of a read...

Democracy In America by De Tocqueville.

de Tocqueville wrote his opus magnus almost 30 years before the Civil
War; it is not a civics book but a commentary/critique of the American
mind and culture at that time. It might be classed as sociology or
anthropology, but not contemporary political science.

Your friend needs a good book on the structure and mechanics of the
American version of a republic within a democracy, as a late 19th
century creed called it. I don't have one to offer; de Tocqueville
would be an interesting read but it doesn't deal with topics like the
effects of the Civil War, the additional amendments to the
Constitution, the wars since 1835, the relationships among
industrialization, massive immigration, the end of slavery and the
subsequent civil rights legislation.
--
Don Kirkman

"Don Kirkman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:58:29 +0000 (UTC), Gray Guest
wrote:


[. . .]

But to change the subject and the subject line....
I am looking for a good and readable intro to US Civics for a friend who
is going to become a US citizen.
He wants more than just to pass the test - which he's already fully
qualified to do
He wants more in depth analysis and commentary
In a way, I wish that Isaac Asimov had written a book on this comparable
to his Guide to the Bible..
it would have been a hell of a read...

Democracy In America by De Tocqueville.

de Tocqueville wrote his opus magnus almost 30 years before the Civil
War; it is not a civics book but a commentary/critique of the American
mind and culture at that time. It might be classed as sociology or
anthropology, but not contemporary political science.

Your friend needs a good book on the structure and mechanics of the
American version of a republic within a democracy, as a late 19th
century creed called it. I don't have one to offer; de Tocqueville
would be an interesting read but it doesn't deal with topics like the
effects of the Civil War, the additional amendments to the
Constitution, the wars since 1835, the relationships among
industrialization, massive immigration, the end of slavery and the
subsequent civil rights legislation.


Good points
I believe he's already read De Tocqueville
(But clearly, I need to read him).
So we need something more recent.

"Gray Guest" wrote in message
44.100...
"SaPeIsMa" wrote in
:

To overcome this, I kind of 'invented' a concept, I call 'tribes':
imagine 'Indians', but young, modern, western people, equipped with
computers and other electronic means, that mimic Indians to some extend
(wear a feather or alike).


Actually, you are coming across as a pedantic idiot who seems to really
solely on book knowledge...

Didn't you mean "incorrect" book knowledge?


No
I meant "rely"
But "incorrect" also applies.

"SaPeIsMa" wrote in message
.. .

Good points
I believe he's already read De Tocqueville
(But clearly, I need to read him).
So we need something more recent.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kind of nice to see that there are at least some folks who admit they don't
know everything, and are willing to learn.

"SaPeIsMa"
"Don Kirkman"
On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:58:29 +0000 (UTC), Gray Guest
[. . .]

But to change the subject and the subject line....
I am looking for a good and readable intro to US Civics for a friend
who
is going to become a US citizen.
He wants more than just to pass the test - which he's already
fully
qualified to do
He wants more in depth analysis and commentary
In a way, I wish that Isaac Asimov had written a book on this
comparable
to his Guide to the Bible..
it would have been a hell of a read...

Democracy In America by De Tocqueville.

de Tocqueville wrote his opus magnus almost 30 years before the Civil
War; it is not a civics book but a commentary/critique of the American
mind and culture at that time. It might be classed as sociology or
anthropology, but not contemporary political science.

Your friend needs a good book on the structure and mechanics of the
American version of a republic within a democracy, as a late 19th
century creed called it. I don't have one to offer; de Tocqueville
would be an interesting read but it doesn't deal with topics like the
effects of the Civil War, the additional amendments to the
Constitution, the wars since 1835, the relationships among
industrialization, massive immigration, the end of slavery and the
subsequent civil rights legislation.

Good points
I believe he's already read De Tocqueville
(But clearly, I need to read him).
So we need something more recent.



What GOOD Points?
LIBs tolerate Debate only
to the extent that you agree with them!

http://mrctv.org/blog/liberals-try-r...ns-new-orleans
Liberals Try to Remove Anti-Obama Signs in New Orleans


They believe that they can fake reality
just like they can fake the character of a man.


LIBs. What PRICE their Vision?
---
LIBs seek first to deprive you
of your Virtue and THEN your very LIFE.


DESERVE PEACE.
DESERVE FREEDOM.
DEMAND COMPETANCE.
DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY.
DEFEAT LIB STRATEGIC INSANITY. IMPEACH OBAMA NOW!

On 9/29/2011 2:05 PM, Gray Guest wrote:

...
Would that include scalping and slow cooking an enemies haed over a low hot
fire while they are still alive.


The Donnor party, when caught in the winter, had to consume human flesh
.... the question isn't weather this would happen, just how hungry one
would have to be, first ...


Okay, first of all the FEMA camps are the product of diseased imaginations.
2nd if it were true why wouldn't we want to arm ourselves to prevent us
being cast into concentration camps.


The exact same thing were said about the german nazi death camps ... I
was wondering what it would look like, when history repeats itself,
using that theme ...

As to military grade hardware in the hands of civilians? Tough ****. We as
a people are grown up enough to decide our own fate, needs and wants. If I
want to own something it's my business so long as I do no harm to another.


Naa, my neighbor could do just too much damage, too quickly, with a nuke
or even SAM missile ... I'd say, depends on the equipment, tanks and
cannon, fully auto weapons, etc. ... no problem.

Now the police having them, I don't much care for that. But your cops have
military grade weapons don't they. Ever hear of GSG-9.

What is military grade anyway?



No, the mindset of the police is very bad and it is impossible to keep
the bad apples out, before some are able to do some very bad things.
Just like child molesters will always attempt to gravitate to being
around children, and employment which allows such access ... the same is
true with positions of authority. Control freaks will always seek these
positions, people who like to abuse authority, like to punish and
discipline, these people will seek these positions ...

A strong citizens committee watch dogging any authority arm, group,
branch of our government will always be a necessity ... if you town or
city doesn't already have one, they need one(s.)

The price of freedom and rights is constant vigilance ... but,
fortunately, it can be done in a manner which is both interesting and
enjoyable ...

Regards,
JS

On 9/29/2011 5:41 PM, RHF wrote:
On Sep 29, 2:05 pm, Gray wrote:
Thomas wrote in news:9ejucrFg8tU1
@mid.individual.net:









Am 29.09.2011 18:16, schrieb SaPeIsMa:

"Thomas wrote in message
...
Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:

The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.

Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?

'The art of war' old Chinese philosophy of government.

LOL
Too bad you only know of the title and haven't' actually read it.

Actually I've not read it, but listened to it as audio-book - in English
btw, what is a second language for me.

But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.

Really ?
Do tell..

Really!

The difference is cooperation and organisation. A single person cannot
know, what other people do, only guess. The uncertainty makes it much
harder for an individual to defend himself than a multitude of organised
individuals.

This means, that individuals should find trustful friends.

In modern times people are too often separated and have not many trusted
relations.

To overcome this, I kind of 'invented' a concept, I call 'tribes':
imagine 'Indians', but young, modern, western people, equipped with
computers and other electronic means, that mimic Indians to some extend
(wear a feather or alike).

Would that include scalping and slow cooking an enemies haed over a low hot
fire while they are still alive.



..

Note, you sure spew a lot of words to demonstrate crass and abyssal
ignorance..
Are you a graduate student in the arts or alleged sciences ?

Actually I live in Germany and am an engineer. American society is
something I have not too much knowledge, but certain developments really
frighten me. There are these FEMA camps for example or military grade
weapons in private hands or in that of policemen. A lot of other things
I really don't like, but usually the people and have quite a few friends
from the US.

TH

Okay, first of all the FEMA camps are the product of diseased imaginations.
2nd if it were true why wouldn't we want to arm ourselves to prevent us
being cast into concentration camps.

As to military grade hardware in the hands of civilians? Tough ****. We as
a people are grown up enough to decide our own fate, needs and wants. If I
want to own something it's my business so long as I do no harm to another.

Now the police having them, I don't much care for that. But your cops have
military grade weapons don't they. Ever hear of GSG-9.

What is military grade anyway?

--
Words of wisdom

What does not kill you... probably didn't cause enough tissue damage.

The Minutemen and the Redcoats where equally
Armed {Balance-of-Power} -so- Why Should That
Change Today : The Power of the People Should
Equal or Exceed the Power of the Government.
-insures-the-government-serves-the-people-
-not-the-government-enslaves-the-people-
.
Just Say "No" To Obama-U-Nism© ! ~ RHF
-©-big-government-control-&-oppression-
.
.

Yes, the people are the real government here in America ... no one wants
their government to be unarmed ... besides, I think the Constitution is
very clear on those rights, to bear arms.

The framers would have known it would take equal arms to put down an
offending group of criminal public servants, if they ever attempted, or
did, usurp the peoples powers.

Regards,
JS