Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/16/2012 3:40 AM, RHF wrote:
On Jan 15, 9:33 am, wrote:
On 1/15/2012 6:17 AM, J G Miller wrote:

On Sunday, January 15th, 2012, at 12:11:07h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

Add to this the fact that most HD-Radio broadcasters, don't actually use
any bit rates higher than 40k. At 40k even aac+ sounds poor, and
presumably the HD-Radio codec will sound even worse.

And that is the sad reality of the situation.

Thankfully that is not the reality at all.

If you look at table 5.2.1 at
http://www.nrscstandards.org/DRB/Non-NRSC%20reports/NPRmultiple_bit_r...
you can actually learn where listeners begin to not like the audio quality.

The question listeners and radio stations should be asking is, what
digital system could be developed for future use, rather than
continuing with the present failures of DAB and HD(tm) radio.

- Only clueless listeners and radio stations
- would be asking that question. Those living
- in the real world know that the digital system
- in use in the U.S. is going to be around for
- a long time. And as HD continues to be deployed
- in other countries, there will be pressure for
- the ROW to go along with it as well.
- That's the actual reality of the situation.

OOPS! -sad-reality-:-but-very-true-

It's not sad at all. IBOC was chosen in the U.S. for some very good reasons:

1. Expands content choices with no additional bandwidth
2. Improves audio quality (or at least perceived audio quality) to radio
listeners
3. Provides a clear path to all-digital while protecting existing
broadcasters.

Do you think that both broadcasters and the FCC was not aware of the
drawbacks of the IBOC approach during the transition to all digital FM?
In fact they clearly stated what the drawbacks were and decided that the
benefits were worth it.

Personally I think they might have just left AM alone and let AM
continue its slow decline rather than make another attempt to improve
it. We saw where "AM Stereo" went. However, to be fair, AM-HD is simply
piggybacking onto the success and desirability FM-HD, something that AM
Stereo did not have the advantage of doing.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/16/2012 3:33 AM, RHF wrote:

The Only 'concern' was/is the continued
viability and profitability of the present
FM Radio Station [Business] Licensees.
-hence- IBOC 'In-Band'& 'On-Channel'
Same Station and Same Business Entity
-new-and-improved-but-yet-un-changed-:o)-

That's ignoring a lot. Yes, of course the present licensees did not want
to create a lot more supply that they would have felt compelled to bid
for or face new competition but that was not the only reason for the
IBOC solution.

Some of the other reasons IBOC was chosen over other digital options:

1. No available spectrum for a new band. Reallocating spectrum is very
difficult. A digital upgrade without changing frequencies was highly
desirable.

2. No transition plan of existing spectrum from analog to digital with
some other options.

3. Less consumer confusion when the frequencies don't change.

4. At the time is was selected, the only competition was DAB which was
very inefficient. DAB+ offers audio quality almost as good as HD, but a)
it wasn't available when HD was selected, and b) it wasn't IBOC.

While most people would not weep if Clear Channel or Cumulus faced new
competition from another radio band, a lot of radio stations are still
independently owned and the value of their licenses would be
significantly reduced by the creation of more stations.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"Phil Kane" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"hwh" wrote in message
...
On 1/14/12 8:34 PM, D. Peter Maus wrote:
Apparently you do not know what you are talking about...


I've been in broadcasting, specifically Radio and TV, since I was 6.
And I'm currently actively involved in developing programming.

Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

People working in digital radio always come up with the stale argument
that people who don't like it "do not know what they are talking about".

When someone spouts something so off base....it's really the only response.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

http://hdradiofarce.blogsdpot.com/20...wide_9700.html

Is this that blog written by the guy with no credentials and no experience?

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/16/12 6:23 PM, SMS wrote:
DAB+ offers audio quality almost as good as HD, but a)
it wasn't available when HD was selected, and b) it wasn't IBOC.

DAB+ can deliver a lot better audio quality than HD, even if it is used
in digital-only mode.

gr, hwh

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:07:05 -0800, sms88
wrote:

Do you think that both broadcasters and the FCC was not aware of the
drawbacks of the IBOC approach during the transition to all digital FM?

Of course they were. But money talks much more louder than
engineering with the present incarnation of my former employer.
---
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:23:05 -0800, SMS
wrote:

3. Less consumer confusion when the frequencies don't change.

Except for those of us spectrum managers who are sensitive to those
things, there is no consumer confusion when "WXXX" went from Channel
12 to Channel 44-DT but still IDs as "WXXX12".
---
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"D. Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

A survey designed by an advertising company....again, I hope you can tell
the difference.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/16/2012 10:29 AM, hwh wrote:
On 1/16/12 6:23 PM, SMS wrote:
DAB+ offers audio quality almost as good as HD, but a)
it wasn't available when HD was selected, and b) it wasn't IBOC.

DAB+ can deliver a lot better audio quality than HD, even if it is used
in digital-only mode.

Nope. Testing by the European Broadcasting Union showed similar results
in perceived audio quality with the HE-AAC Codec (which is not
surprising since the iBiquity Codec is a slightly modified HE-AAC Codec).

"at an audio bit rate of 48 kbps, HE-AAC offers good to excellent quality

at an audio bit rate of 64 kbps it offers excellent quality."

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/16/12 15:30 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

A survey designed by an advertising company....again, I hope you can tell
the difference.



Insult aside, it was a survey designed by the Tobacco Industry.
It was a survey designed by the business its conclusion supported.
The results were used to promote sales the industry's products.

Not unlike iBiquity designing and sponsoring surveys the results
of which supports sales of its products.

Again, I'd hope you could see the similarities.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/17/12 12:11 AM, SMS wrote:
On 1/16/2012 10:29 AM, hwh wrote:
On 1/16/12 6:23 PM, SMS wrote:
DAB+ offers audio quality almost as good as HD, but a)
it wasn't available when HD was selected, and b) it wasn't IBOC.

DAB+ can deliver a lot better audio quality than HD, even if it is used
in digital-only mode.

Nope. Testing by the European Broadcasting Union showed similar results
in perceived audio quality with the HE-AAC Codec (which is not
surprising since the iBiquity Codec is a slightly modified HE-AAC Codec).

"at an audio bit rate of 48 kbps, HE-AAC offers good to excellent quality

at an audio bit rate of 64 kbps it offers excellent quality."

And DAB+ can deliver 128 kbps while HD radio can't. 128 kbps sounds
quite a lot better than 96 kbps.
Digital radio people try to fool us into believing that 48 kbps sounds
decent. It doesn't.

gr, hwh

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"D. Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 15:30 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid
and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

A survey designed by an advertising company....again, I hope you can tell
the difference.



Insult aside, it was a survey designed by the Tobacco Industry.

Yes it was.

It was a survey designed by the business its conclusion supported.

Yes it was.

The results were used to promote sales the industry's products.

Yes it was.

Not unlike iBiquity designing and sponsoring surveys the results of
which supports sales of its products.

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.

Again, I'd hope you could see the similarities.

Nope. I hope you now see the dissimilarities.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/15/2012 9:33 AM, SMS wrote:
If you look at table 5.2.1 at
http://www.nrscstandards.org/DRB/Non-NRSC%20reports/NPRmultiple_bit_rate_report.pdf
you can actually learn where listeners begin to not like the audio quality.

If you look at section 2.2 of that paper you'll find that Ibiquity
controlled the audio samples used in that test. The "digital" signal
fed to the participants was the output of a CD player with the level
carefully controlled and run through the Ibiquity codec with no other
audio processing whatsoever. The "analog" signal was run through an
Omnia 6EX and an Optimod 8400 where it was compressed (in the analog
domain, I'm speaking of now).


Is it any wonder that people felt the HD signal had superior audio
quality? Things don't sound so good when you squash the dynamic range.
So this is just a classic case of the fox guarding the henhouse, isn't it.

Dave B.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"Dave Barnett" wrote in message
...


Is it any wonder that people felt the HD signal had superior audio
quality? Things don't sound so good when you squash the dynamic range.
So this is just a classic case of the fox guarding the henhouse, isn't it.

Dave B.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My very favorite complaint about broadcast radio. There is no LEGITIMATE
reason to process broadcast audio. Yes, I know they try to tell us that that
they need to sculpt it for listening in a car. And of course, the stations
do it to try to compete for the attention of listeners by "who's the
loudest?" All it really does, though, is distort the program material, and
ruin the listening experience by cutting the dynamic range so far that in
many cases the difference between highest and lowest levels in a given track
is 6 dB or less. This not an exaggeration.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On Jan 16, 1:30*pm, "FarsWatch4" wrote:
"D. Peter Maus" wrote in ...









On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil *wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
*wrote:

* *9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. *Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

* Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

- A survey designed by an advertising company....
- again, I hope you can tell the difference.

Otherwise know as form of 'Push-Polling'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/17/12 01:03 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 15:30 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid
and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

A survey designed by an advertising company....again, I hope you can tell
the difference.



Insult aside, it was a survey designed by the Tobacco Industry.

Yes it was.

It was a survey designed by the business its conclusion supported.

Yes it was.

The results were used to promote sales the industry's products.

Yes it was.

Not unlike iBiquity designing and sponsoring surveys the results of
which supports sales of its products.

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.


As someone who participated in the execution of several such surveys,
that is simply not true.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/17/12 10:05 , Dave Barnett wrote:
On 1/16/2012 11:03 PM, FarsWatch4 wrote:

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by
iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.

You mention "surveys" in the plural. The only one I have seen is this:

http://www.nrscstandards.org/Reports...ubj%20eval.pdf


where Ibiquity purposely controlled the audio chain to make the
analog sample sound bad. What others are there?

Dave B.

There have been many across the country. I've been involved in 8,
I think. Maybe one more.

In two, the process for selection of participants specifically
ruled out those who had audio experience...musicians, producers,
engineers...and audiophiles. This was accomplished several ways.

In 3 or 4 others, the results were selectively compiled to
produce a desired result.

In one, a public demonstration at a remote, the results were
tainted by a poor location to receive the FM analog signal.

In all of them, the analog source was specifically chosen for its
inferiour sound.

And all were conducted according to guidelines specificed in
documents from iBiquity. And all, had a stake in the outcome.
"Promotional consideration" doesn't even begin to cover it.

All but one were conducted by 'independent companies' that do
focus groups, perceptuals, and other surveys for the broadcast and
advertising industries. The exception, was conducted by a radio
station, itself, at one of its public appearances.

And has been asserted here, the results were, indeed,
overwhelmingly in favor of HD radio. But, again, none were
scientific. Most were highly selective. None were double, or often
single blind. They were, in fact, surveys conducted to promoted a
product.

I got involved in the process as a part-time employee of an
entity contracted to conduct the tests. How I got to be a part time
employee...well that's a circuitous tale that began by me calling a
colleague at a radio station promoting HD and asking how I could
participate in a survey. He told me I couldn't. Period. But, in the
conversation he did drop a couple of names of persons, that I then
contacted looking for employment, on a part time basis, which got me
in to participate in the studies. And several non HD broadcast
related studies, as well. Watching focus groups discuss language
while high on pizza and Code Red was better than "30 Rock." Of
course, nothing was as eye opening as helping conduct focus group
research at CBS.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/17/12 01:45 , Dave Barnett wrote:
On 1/15/2012 9:33 AM, SMS wrote:
If you look at table 5.2.1 at
http://www.nrscstandards.org/DRB/Non-NRSC%20reports/NPRmultiple_bit_rate_report.pdf

you can actually learn where listeners begin to not like the audio
quality.

If you look at section 2.2 of that paper you'll find that Ibiquity
controlled the audio samples used in that test. The "digital" signal fed
to the participants was the output of a CD player with the level
carefully controlled and run through the Ibiquity codec with no other
audio processing whatsoever. The "analog" signal was run through an
Omnia 6EX and an Optimod 8400 where it was compressed (in the analog
domain, I'm speaking of now).


Is it any wonder that people felt the HD signal had superior audio
quality? Things don't sound so good when you squash the dynamic range.
So this is just a classic case of the fox guarding the henhouse, isn't it.

Dave B.

What's also not being addressed, is that stations are also processing
the dynamics on the HD streams. Like record companies do with CD audio.
Like ITunes does with MP3's. The way nearly all web audio, and satellite
radio audio is processed.

The comparison between processed and unprocessed audio in these
demonstrations implies that what will be heard on the air is, in fact,
unprocessed audio.

This is not the case.

So, virtually from the moment of implementation, HD radio fails to
live up to the promise.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

Is it any wonder that people felt the HD signal had superior audio
quality? Things don't sound so good when you squash the dynamic range.

Seems to my dynamic range is squashed more in AM/FM broadcasts than in HD.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

What's also not being addressed, is that stations are also processing
the dynamics on the HD streams.

It's not being addressed because it's not true.

There is seperate processing. SOme stations don't use virtually any
processing at all on their HD streams.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"D. Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/12 01:03 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 15:30 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid
and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

A survey designed by an advertising company....again, I hope you can
tell
the difference.



Insult aside, it was a survey designed by the Tobacco Industry.

Yes it was.

It was a survey designed by the business its conclusion supported.

Yes it was.

The results were used to promote sales the industry's products.

Yes it was.

Not unlike iBiquity designing and sponsoring surveys the results of
which supports sales of its products.

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.


As someone who participated in the execution of several such surveys,
that is simply not true.

You mean you couldn't tell when you were being snookered into an advertising
campain?

If you couldn't tell during the execution....you should have been able tot
ell by the results.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"Dave Barnett" wrote in message
...
On 1/16/2012 11:03 PM, FarsWatch4 wrote:

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.

You mention "surveys" in the plural. The only one I have seen is this:

Many surveys have been done by individual stations...not by iBiquity.

They are proprietary...and not used as "selling points" as the one you
mentioned is.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

where Ibiquity purposely controlled the audio chain to make the
analog sample sound bad. What others are there?

Dave B.

There have been many across the country. I've been involved in 8, I
think. Maybe one more.

If you were involved with EIGHT...maybe more? Then there was something
wrong with the mthodology of this survey...and I highly doubt the subject,
sponsors or the results.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/20/12 15:22 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
What's also not being addressed, is that stations are also processing
the dynamics on the HD streams.

It's not being addressed because it's not true.


Even yet another case where you're denying a simple truth.
Stations ARE processing their HD streams. Sometimes as heavily as
their baseband streams. Which, with increased distortions and
digital artifacts from the lossy encoding algorithm, makes for some
pretty poor, significantly audible, unclean audio.

There is seperate processing. SOme stations don't use virtually any
processing at all on their HD streams.


Most, however, do.

And of the stations I work with, the call, every week from
Programming, and Manglement, is for more processing.

Something I have to adjust everytime I go up to the transmitter.

Now, I, personally, agree with Brenda Ann...there is really no
need for it, with today's audio, and with today's listening
environments...but Radio has never heard it that way.

So, manglement calls for more processing on the HD Streams.

Yes, it does happen. It happens quite a lot, actually.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/20/12 15:23 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/17/12 01:03 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 15:30 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to aid
and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

A survey designed by an advertising company....again, I hope you can
tell
the difference.



Insult aside, it was a survey designed by the Tobacco Industry.

Yes it was.

It was a survey designed by the business its conclusion supported.

Yes it was.

The results were used to promote sales the industry's products.

Yes it was.

Not unlike iBiquity designing and sponsoring surveys the results of
which supports sales of its products.

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.


As someone who participated in the execution of several such surveys,
that is simply not true.

You mean you couldn't tell when you were being snookered into an advertising
campain?


Ah, so you admit that the HD surveys are just an advertising
scheme....thank you for finally admitting the truth.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/20/12 15:25 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Dave wrote in message
...
On 1/16/2012 11:03 PM, FarsWatch4 wrote:

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.

You mention "surveys" in the plural. The only one I have seen is this:

Many surveys have been done by individual stations...not by iBiquity.

They are proprietary...and not used as "selling points" as the one you
mentioned is.

They most certainly are used as selling points. That's why they
go to the effort and expense of conducting them.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/20/12 15:26 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
where Ibiquity purposely controlled the audio chain to make the
analog sample sound bad. What others are there?

Dave B.

There have been many across the country. I've been involved in 8, I
think. Maybe one more.

If you were involved with EIGHT...maybe more? Then there was something
wrong with the mthodology of this survey


Not at all. 6 were in other markets. 2 were followup studies.

You're not familiar with the way this kind of survey is done.
Rarely just one. Never in a single location. And about 1/3 of the
time with a current followup to note trends in response, or changes
in perceptuals.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/20/2012 1:39 PM, D. Peter Maus wrote:

They most certainly are used as selling points. That's why they go to
the effort and expense of conducting them.

Actually the purpose was to determine the minimum bit rate at which HD
could be broadcast where listeners still gave it high marks for audio
quality. They performed the bit-rate testing for different genres of
music, and for voice, so stations could determine optimal bit rates for
their HD sub-channels. Most stations chose to not go beyond HD2 (HD1
same as analog channel) and one HD2 music sub-channel. There are areas
where there is voice on the sub-channel (sports, religious broadcasts,
etc) where an HD3 sub-channel is acceptable. Once you get below the mid
40's then listeners perceive lower quality audio.

The mistake many people make is trying to claim that just because the
audio is perceived as near CD quality by listeners, that the compression
scheme actually results in audio that is not near CD quality. The fact
is that the broadcasters care about what their listeners perceive, not
what an audiophile might discern, and not what a techie with a spectrum
analyzer might figure out.

Every in-depth test of HD Radio, and every casual evaluation by testers
from publications like the WSJ and CR confirms that HD Radio audio is
perceived as being much higher quality than FM. Of course much of the
reason for this may be that so much FM sound so bad due to multipath.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/21/12 12:59 AM, sms88 wrote:
The mistake many people make is trying to claim that just because the
audio is perceived as near CD quality by listeners

The mistake you make is to lie about the sound quality. All these
'tests' you are talking about are rigged by the industry, as has been
described in detail on the group recently.

gr, hwh

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/21/2012 1:46 AM, hwh wrote:
On 1/21/12 12:59 AM, sms88 wrote:
The mistake many people make is trying to claim that just because the
audio is perceived as near CD quality by listeners

The mistake you make is to lie about the sound quality. All these
'tests' you are talking about are rigged by the industry, as has been
described in detail on the group recently.

Sorry, no one has provided any evidence to show that to be the case. It
may be something that they desperately want to believe, since as you've
seen some people will fall for anything (witness the claims of HD
interference caused by a central valley AM station which does not even
broadcast in HD).

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"SMS" wrote in message
...

(witness the claims of HD
interference caused by a central valley AM station which does not even
broadcast in HD).

Over and over again with that same bull****. This is why people don't like
you Steven

Mark

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"D. Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
On 1/20/12 15:22 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
What's also not being addressed, is that stations are also processing
the dynamics on the HD streams.

It's not being addressed because it's not true.

Even yet another case where you're denying a simple truth. Stations ARE
processing their HD streams. Sometimes as heavily as their baseband
streams.

And many are not processing them at all.

But the truth is, that they are not processing it just like they do on the
broadcast band.

There is seperate processing. SOme stations don't use virtually any
processing at all on their HD streams.

Most, however, do.

I would say that MOST do not. (As someone currently working in the
industry.)

So, manglement calls for more processing on the HD Streams.

Yes, it does happen. It happens quite a lot, actually.


This is a vast generalization. No, it doesn't happen "quite a lot".

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"D. Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
On 1/20/12 15:23 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/17/12 01:03 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 15:30 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/16/12 11:35 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:55:32 -0500, "FarsWatch4"
wrote:

9 out of 10 doctors also recommended cigarette smoking to
aid
and
improve digestion.

Where is this study?

This was highly touted in advertising during the 1940s.

It was an advertising ploy. Not a study, per se.

I hope we can tell the difference.

Insult aside, it WAS indeed based on surveys.

A survey designed by an advertising company....again, I hope you can
tell
the difference.



Insult aside, it was a survey designed by the Tobacco Industry.

Yes it was.

It was a survey designed by the business its conclusion supported.

Yes it was.

The results were used to promote sales the industry's products.

Yes it was.

Not unlike iBiquity designing and sponsoring surveys the results
of
which supports sales of its products.

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by
iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.


As someone who participated in the execution of several such surveys,
that is simply not true.

You mean you couldn't tell when you were being snookered into an
advertising
campain?


Ah, so you admit that the HD surveys are just an advertising
scheme....thank you for finally admitting the truth.

Nope. I'm saying I can tell the difference between an advertising campagn
and scientific research..

Can't you?

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"D. Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
On 1/20/12 15:25 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Dave wrote in message
...
On 1/16/2012 11:03 PM, FarsWatch4 wrote:

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by
iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.

You mention "surveys" in the plural. The only one I have seen is this:

Many surveys have been done by individual stations...not by iBiquity.

They are proprietary...and not used as "selling points" as the one you
mentioned is.

They most certainly are used as selling points. That's why they go to
the effort and expense of conducting them.

No they are not. Most research indfividual station do is never released to
the public.

It is for internal strategic decision making.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"D. Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
On 1/20/12 15:26 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
where Ibiquity purposely controlled the audio chain to make the
analog sample sound bad. What others are there?

Dave B.

There have been many across the country. I've been involved in 8, I
think. Maybe one more.

If you were involved with EIGHT...maybe more? Then there was something
wrong with the mthodology of this survey


Not at all. 6 were in other markets. 2 were followup studies.

Then the methodology is flawed....and as a reesult, I would be suspect of
any conclusions.

You're not familiar with the way this kind of survey is done. Rarely
just one. Never in a single location. And about 1/3 of the time with a
current followup to note trends in response, or changes in perceptuals.

You're correct. In all my years in broadcasting, I have never heard of such
a silly way to do a "survey".

Don't draw any conclsuions from it.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

"iBiquity Fraudsters" wrote in message
...
On Jan 14, 9:41 am, SMS wrote:
On 1/14/2012 2:57 AM, hwh wrote:

On 1/14/12 10:51 AM, RHF wrote:
Hello ! - Wake-Up FCC Expand The FM Radio Band
from 76 MHz to 88 MHz - Do It Now !

I have to say that using 76 - 88 MHz for digital radio sounds like a
good idea. ANy objections? ;-)

gr, hwh

Sadly, what matters is not what anyone says on Usenet, but what the
broadcasters want.

LOL! Then why do you spend so much time here shilling for iBiquity?

I get a kick out of showing up your lack of understanding and psychological
issues!

No, what matter is what consumers want - consumers never asked for HD.

Yes they did. COnsumers asked for more choices on the dial.....and HD
addresses that.

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of All Time" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

**** off! LMFAO!!!!

Perfect response when someone shows you up Farce!

LOL!

Fox News 2012: HD Radio one of "The Biggest CES Flops of AllTime" LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
 

On 1/23/12 13:28 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"D. Peter wrote in message
...
On 1/20/12 15:25 , FarsWatch4 wrote:
"Dave wrote in message
...
On 1/16/2012 11:03 PM, FarsWatch4 wrote:

The surveys I have seen were not designed nor sponsored by
iBiquity...but
were seperate research projects done by stations themselves by hiring
outside research companies with no stake in the outcome.

You mention "surveys" in the plural. The only one I have seen is this:

Many surveys have been done by individual stations...not by iBiquity.

They are proprietary...and not used as "selling points" as the one you
mentioned is.

They most certainly are used as selling points. That's why they go to
the effort and expense of conducting them.

No they are not. Most research indfividual station do is never released to
the public.


Which must be why the phrase 'most people in listening tests
prefer...' has never appeared in any promotional material.

Research is never released. But that's a strawman argument.
Certainly no station releases raw Arbitron data, for instance, But
interpreted results are always used in promotional and sales. There
is no reason otherwise to spend the money to do them.


It is for internal strategic decision making.


Again, a strawman argument. Even material used for internal
decision making is eventually sold to the public.

Perceptuals find their results in promos stating "we asked and
you said..." "Playing YOUR favorites."

Perceptuals, and surveys find their way into sales pitches at ad
agencies.

Your attempts to derail responses to a fictitious followup belie
your intent to have a reasonable discussion.

The truth has no need of such trickery. Nor does it have need for
the gratuitous insults. Nor debate tactics based on strawman arguments.

You've exposed yourself as a fanboi. Nothing more.