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What goes around...
On 6/13/2014 11:00 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:
On Friday, June 13, 2014 6:29:12 AM UTC-7, D. Peter Maus wrote: Yes, the US Constitution. And the Federalist Papers. On 6/13/2014 12:17 PM, wrote: What do the Federalist Papers opine about the qualifications to be President? Was there unanimous agreement, or was this another controversial issue? AFAIK, the US Constitution says "natural born citizne", and the US Supreme Court has not yet spoken ex cathedra on clarifying the definition. Exactly why I asked if anyone has a *definitive* answer. http://www.federalistblog.us/2008/11...tizen_defined/ Natural-Born Citizen Defined One universal point most all early publicists agreed on was natural-born citizen must mean one who is a citizen by no act of law. If a person owes their citizenship to some act of law (naturalization for example), they cannot be considered a natural-born citizen. This leads us to defining natural-born citizen under the laws of nature – laws the founders recognized and embraced. Under the laws of nature, every child born requires no act of law to establish the fact the child inherits through nature his/her father’s citizenship as well as his name (or even his property) through birth. This law of nature is also recognized by law of nations. Sen. Howard said the citizenship clause under the Fourteenth Amendment was by virtue of “natural law and national law.” The advantages of Natural Law is competing allegiances between nations are not claimed, or at least with those nations whose custom is to not make citizens of other countries citizens without their consent. Under Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised Statutes (1866) made clear other nation’s citizens would not be claimed: “All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens of the United States.” Rep. John A. Bingham commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866)) Bingham had asserted the same thing in 1862 as well: Does the gentleman mean that any person, born within the limits of the Republic, and who has offended against no law, can rightfully be exiled from any State or from any rood of the Republic? Does the gentleman undertake to say that here, in the face of the provision in the Constitution, that persons born within the limits of the Republic, of parents who are not the subjects of any other sovereignty, are native-born citizens, whether they be black or white? There is not a textbook referred to in any court which does not recognise the principle that I assert. (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 407 (1862)) Bingham of course was paraphrasing Vattel whom often used the plural word “parents” but made it clear it was the father alone for whom the child inherits his/her citizenship from (suggesting a child could be born out of wedlock wasn’t politically correct). Bingham subscribed to the same view as most everyone in Congress at the time that in order to be born a citizen of the United States one must be born within the allegiance of the Nation. As the court has consistently ruled without controversy, change of location never changes or alters a persons allegiance to their country of origin except by acting in accordance to written law in throwing off their previous allegiance and consenting to a new one. This of course, explains why emphasis of not owing allegiance to anyone else was the effect of being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment. The constitutional requirement for the President of the United States to be a natural-born citizen had one purpose according to St. George Tucker: That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted,) is a happy means of security against foreign influence, which, wherever it is capable of being exerted, is to he dreaded more than the plague. The admission of foreigners into our councils, consequently, cannot be too much guarded against; their total exclusion from a station to which foreign nations have been accustomed to, attach ideas of sovereign power, sacredness of character, and hereditary right, is a measure of the most consummate policy and wisdom. …The title of king, prince, emperor, or czar, without the smallest addition to his powers, would have rendered him a member of the fraternity of crowned heads: their common cause has more than once threatened the desolation of Europe. To have added a member to this sacred family in America, would have invited and perpetuated among us all the evils of Pandora’s Box. Charles Pinckney in 1800 said the presidential eligibility clause was designed “to insure … attachment to the country.” President Washington warned a “passionate attachment of one nation for another, produces a variety of evils,” and goes on to say: Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation, of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained; and by exciting jealousy, ill- will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens, (who devote themselves to the favorite nation,) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearance of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation. What better way to insure attachment to the country then to require the President to have inherited his American citizenship through his American father and not through a foreign father. Any child can be born anywhere in the country and removed by their father to be raised in his native country. The risks would be for the child to return in later life to reside in this country bringing with him foreign influences and intrigues, and thus, making such a citizen indistinguishable from a naturalized citizen. Conclusion Extending citizenship to non-citizens through birth based solely upon locality is nothing more than mere municipal law that has no extra-territorial effect as proven from the English practice of it. On the other hand, citizenship by descent through the father is natural law and is recognized by all nations (what nation doesn’t recognize citizenship of children born wherever to their own citizens?). Thus, a natural-born citizen is one whose citizenship is recognized by law of nations rather than mere local recognition. Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, James F. Wilson of Iowa, confirmed this in 1866: “We must depend on the general law relating to subjects and citizens recognized by all nations for a definition, and that must lead us to the conclusion that every person born in the United States is a natural-born citizen of such States, except that of children born on our soil to temporary sojourners or representatives of foreign Governments.”* When a child inherits the citizenship of their father, they become a natural-born citizen of the nation their father belongs regardless of where they might be born. It should be pointed out that citizenship through descent of the father was recognized by U.S. Naturalization law whereby children became citizens themselves as soon as their father had become a naturalized citizen, or were born in another country to a citizen father. Yes, birth is prima facie evidence of citizenship, but only the citizenship of the nation the father is a member. * Temporary sojourners like transient aliens were a description applied to aliens other than resident aliens. The difference being temporary aliens were here for temporary purposes, such as work, travel, visitation or school, who had no desire to become citizens or was prevented from becoming citizens by law. Resident aliens were those who desired to become citizens and had renounced their prior allegiances and had taken the legal steps to become citizens or reside within some state per state law. UPDATE: In regards to questions about the citizenship of the mother: Mothers citizenship rarely ever influenced the citizenship of their children except in certain situations such as the father dying before the child was born or when the identity of the father was unknown |
#2
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What goes around...
On Friday, June 13, 2014 11:09:09 AM UTC-7, Bill Davis wrote:
http://www.federalistblog.us/2008/11...tizen_defined/ Thanks, but I was expecting someone to cite chapter an verse from the original Federalist Papers circulated by the Founding Fathers before the adoption of the US Constitution (at least, that was the way I intertpreted Rock Rat's claimn about the Federalist Papers). Your link appears to be for a site espousing a particular current political agenda, even if it does have "Federalist" in its name. |
#4
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What goes around...
On Friday, June 13, 2014 1:30:20 PM UTC-7, Bill Davis wrote:
It cites the Federalist papers. I must have skiimed over it too quickly, but I did not see any citation from the Fedeeralist Papers in any of your three links. The only one I spotted that might have been before 1789 was "Alexander Hamilton's draft of the Constitution", and it was not claimed to be part of the Federalist Papers. How about providing a direct citation like "Federalist Paper No. xx", page NN, chapter yy, paragraph qq, etc.? |
#5
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What goes around...
On 6/13/2014 3:02 PM, wrote:
On Friday, June 13, 2014 1:30:20 PM UTC-7, Bill Davis wrote: It cites the Federalist papers. I must have skiimed over it too quickly, but I did not see any citation from the Fedeeralist Papers in any of your three links. The only one I spotted that might have been before 1789 was "Alexander Hamilton's draft of the Constitution", and it was not claimed to be part of the Federalist Papers. How about providing a direct citation like "Federalist Paper No. xx", page NN, chapter yy, paragraph qq, etc.? Not a problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...citizen_clause Alexander Hamilton, a Convention delegate from New York, wrote in Federalist No. 68 about the care that must be taken in selecting the president: "Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils."[5 http://www.redstate.com/diary/ironch...ynch-v-clarke/ A quote from James Madison, popularly acknowledged as the “author” of the Constitution, provides a clue as to what our Founders meant. In one of his papers, dated the 22 May, 1789, he wrote the following (emphasis mine): It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other. |
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What goes around...
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 8:59:39 AM UTC-7, Bill Davis wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...citizen_clause Alexander Hamilton, a Convention delegate from New York, wrote in Federalist No. 68 about the care that must be taken in selecting the president: "Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils."[5 http://www.redstate.com/diary/ironch...ynch-v-clarke/ A quote from James Madison, popularly acknowledged as the ï¿ 1/2 authorï¿ 1/2 of the Constitution, provides a clue as to what our Founders meant. In one of his papers, dated the 22 May, 1789, he wrote the following (emphasis mine): It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other. Maybe it is the 18th century Colonial English, but the quote from the Federalist Papers that you attribute to Alexander Hamilton seems like a justification for requiring natural-born citizenship. I do not see a definition of being a "natura- born citizen" in this quote. The quote from James Madison is interesting, but he seems to be presenting it as his opinion, it covers some simple and uncontroversial situations, and he does not seem to be claiming the same authority to interpret the constitutions as John Marshall did in Marbury versus Madison. It does not appear to be a formal and legal definition that gives both the necessary requirements and describes any and all disqualifying conditions. I still think the Rock Rat was wrong when he asserted that the definition could be found in the Constitution, and he was just bloviating when he claimed that it was in the Federalist Papers. |
#7
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What goes around...
Google,,, batr.org TISA
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#8
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What goes around...
On 6/26/2014 9:45 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 8:59:39 AM UTC-7, Bill Davis wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...citizen_clause Alexander Hamilton, a Convention delegate from New York, wrote in Federalist No. 68 about the care that must be taken in selecting the president: "Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils."[5 http://www.redstate.com/diary/ironch...ynch-v-clarke/ A quote from James Madison, popularly acknowledged as the ï¿ 1/2 authorï¿ 1/2 of the Constitution, provides a clue as to what our Founders meant. In one of his papers, dated the 22 May, 1789, he wrote the following (emphasis mine): It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other. Maybe it is the 18th century Colonial English, but the quote from the Federalist Papers that you attribute to Alexander Hamilton seems like a justification for requiring natural-born citizenship. I do not see a definition of being a "natura- born citizen" in this quote. The quote from James Madison is interesting, but he seems to be presenting it as his opinion, it covers some simple and uncontroversial situations, and he does not seem to be claiming the same authority to interpret the constitutions as John Marshall did in Marbury versus Madison. It does not appear to be a formal and legal definition that gives both the necessary requirements and describes any and all disqualifying conditions. I still think the Rock Rat was wrong when he asserted that the definition could be found in the Constitution, and he was just bloviating when he claimed that it was in the Federalist Papers. You find bits and pieces in the Federalist Papers, not a pure definition. |
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