Question to the group,

Is it better to have a separate ground for you random wire short wave
antenna (w/9:1 transformer) and a separate ground for your receiver (station
ground) or can both use the same ground? If both were connected to the same
ground, wouldn't that cause ground loop problems?

Thank you in advance

Dave

In article ,
"DJB" wrote:

Question to the group,

Is it better to have a separate ground for you random wire short wave
antenna (w/9:1 transformer) and a separate ground for your receiver (station
ground) or can both use the same ground? If both were connected to the same
ground, wouldn't that cause ground loop problems?

Thank you in advance

It prevents a ground loop problem to use isolated grounds. It will help
reduce noise from the AC powering your radio from being part of the
³measurement³ in this case the signal of the station you are trying to
receive at the input to the radio from also seeing noise on the AC power
system. If your radio is plugged into the AC grid then it already has a
virtual ground to it.

What remains for you to do is to make a ground for the antenna circuit.
The random wire is just half the antenna as the RF current it picks up
needs a place to go to complete a circuit to ground. Creating a ground
for the antenna that is isolated from the power ground through the
³transformer² will help reduce the noise floor on received signals.

If you built a balanced or complete antenna like a dipole the antenna
ground would not help much at all. The transformer would still help to
isolate the antenna circuit from the virtual RF ground to the AC system
reducing the noise floor.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote in message ...
In article ,
"DJB" wrote:

Question to the group,

Is it better to have a separate ground for you random wire short wave
antenna (w/9:1 transformer) and a separate ground for your receiver (station
ground) or can both use the same ground? If both were connected to the same
ground, wouldn't that cause ground loop problems?

Thank you in advance

It prevents a ground loop problem to use isolated grounds.

Huh???? This doesn't make sense to me. Using separate grounds is the
fastest way to cause a ground loop. All grounds should always be tied
together at a common point. It's in the NEC. And all gear should use
it's own single wire to that single ground point. "star configuration"
This assures no ground loops.

It will help
reduce noise from the AC powering your radio from being part of the
³measurement³ in this case the signal of the station you are trying to
receive at the input to the radio from also seeing noise on the AC power
system.

How will grounding a radio reduce AC power noise? If you have AC
noise, you need AC line filtering, not a ground. Or seems to me
anyway...I haven't grounded any of my radios in years. I don't have AC
noise problems, unless I pick up radiated line noise. No grounding
will cure that.

Creating a ground
for the antenna that is isolated from the power ground through the
³transformer² will help reduce the noise floor on received signals.

I don't see how. But even ignoring that, what you propose is a
violation of NEC.
And it's also a way to ensure severe lightning damage if that ever
occurs due to the differences in ground potentials.

If you built a balanced or complete antenna like a dipole the antenna
ground would not help much at all.

True.

The transformer would still help to
isolate the antenna circuit from the virtual RF ground to the AC system
reducing the noise floor.

This confuses me though...What virtual RF ground? Normally, the AC
system should not be an issue if using a dipole. Best way to ensure a
quiet dipole is to use good decoupling. IE: balun, chokes, etc to
reduce noise ingress...
Myself, and this is open to debate of course...I would use a single
ground point. I would use a ground rod at the balun. And that ground
would be bonded to the main house ground system to keep at the same
potential. I probably would not bother grounding the radio, but if I
did, I would use a single wire to the same ground outside the shack at
the balun. There is no way this will cause a ground loop. And will
reduce problems if lightning strikes. Remember the recent lightning
post where all gear in the house was trashed? Thats what happens when
you don't bond all grounds together to keep them at the same
potential.
Of course, I don't consider mine the last word, but I do have to
respectably disagree with your separate grounding proposal...I would
never do that myself. MK

I sed...I would use a ground rod at the balun.

Ooops, meant the transformer, not balun..MK

quote from another post....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You don't have a clue how lucky you are! Serious. I went to a
Lightning
engineering course at Poly Phaser in Nevada for 7 days to study the
effects
of lightning and what paths are travelled. If that longwire was only
50'
from where your wire was, you are damned lucky!"

"The damage that you mentioned is not from a line getting struck, but
rather
from the ground suddenly becoming an above ground source.... In other
words,
the "Ground" that everything else in the house is attached to started
raising to a potential of 1000 - 50,000 volts. The damage occurs when
the
telephone, cable, electrical and all of the other lines still stay at
their
same normal potential.... 110 volts, 24 volts and cable TV ground....
So,
you see the problem. The 1000 - 50,000 volt charge tries to escape
through
the little life lines to your house. So............ BOOM! IF that
would have
come down your longwire and into your headphones, I as well as your
family
would be very very upset right now. So, you are one lucky guy!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the post I was referring to as far as differences in ground
potential.
If all the grounds had been tied together, and at the same potential,
this would not have happened. This is the main reason why I could
never advocate separate grounds. It's inviting disaster. MK

DJB,

Here are Three Messages to Read about Grounds and Grounding
from the Shortwave SWL Antenna eGroup on YAHOO !

* Grounds & Grounding = Five Topics for your Consideration
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/539

* Compilation of "Ground" Messages
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/524

* The "Primary" Antenna Grounding Point
and the 'secondary' Shack Grounding Point
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/503


iane ~ RHF
..
Some Say: On A Clear Day You Can See Forever.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/502
I BELIEVE: On A Clear Night...
You Can Hear Forever and beyond the Beyond !
..
..
= = = "DJB" wrote in message
= = = ...

Question to the group,

Is it better to have a separate ground for you random wire short wave
antenna (w/9:1 transformer) and a separate ground for your receiver (station
ground) or can both use the same ground? If both were connected to the same
ground, wouldn't that cause ground loop problems?

Thank you in advance

Dave

In article ,
(Mark Keith) wrote:

Telamon wrote in message
.
..
In article ,
"DJB" wrote:

Question to the group,

Is it better to have a separate ground for you random wire short
wave antenna (w/9:1 transformer) and a separate ground for your
receiver (station ground) or can both use the same ground? If
both were connected to the same ground, wouldn't that cause
ground loop problems?

Thank you in advance

It prevents a ground loop problem to use isolated grounds.

Huh???? This doesn't make sense to me. Using separate grounds is the
fastest way to cause a ground loop. All grounds should always be tied
together at a common point. It's in the NEC. And all gear should use
it's own single wire to that single ground point. "star
configuration" This assures no ground loops.

It will help reduce noise from the AC powering your radio from
being part of the ³measurement³ in this case the signal of the
station you are trying to receive at the input to the radio from
also seeing noise on the AC power system.

How will grounding a radio reduce AC power noise? If you have AC
noise, you need AC line filtering, not a ground. Or seems to me
anyway...I haven't grounded any of my radios in years. I don't have
AC noise problems, unless I pick up radiated line noise. No grounding
will cure that.

Creating a ground
for the antenna that is isolated from the power ground through the
³transformer² will help reduce the noise floor on received signals.

I don't see how. But even ignoring that, what you propose is a
violation of NEC. And it's also a way to ensure severe lightning
damage if that ever occurs due to the differences in ground
potentials.

If you built a balanced or complete antenna like a dipole the
antenna ground would not help much at all.

True.

The transformer would still help to
isolate the antenna circuit from the virtual RF ground to the AC
system reducing the noise floor.

This confuses me though...What virtual RF ground? Normally, the AC
system should not be an issue if using a dipole. Best way to ensure a
quiet dipole is to use good decoupling. IE: balun, chokes, etc to
reduce noise ingress... Myself, and this is open to debate of
course...I would use a single ground point. I would use a ground rod
at the balun. And that ground would be bonded to the main house
ground system to keep at the same potential. I probably would not
bother grounding the radio, but if I did, I would use a single wire
to the same ground outside the shack at the balun. There is no way
this will cause a ground loop. And will reduce problems if lightning
strikes. Remember the recent lightning post where all gear in the
house was trashed? Thats what happens when you don't bond all grounds
together to keep them at the same potential. Of course, I don't
consider mine the last word, but I do have to respectably disagree
with your separate grounding proposal...I would never do that myself. MK


Besides multiple questions through this post you already posted to the
thread two other times so I¹ll try to clarify at the end of this one.

There are several problems that need to be solved with a Marconi type
antenna the main one being to not use the mains ground as the antenna
ground. Using the mains ground means noise in the power system will be
part of the signal input. A Marconi type needs a ground to be complete
so you make one for the single element antenna. The basic idea being
ground rod with or without radials together with the random wire is the
antenna system. You make a connection to the coax through a transformer
one side has the antenna ground for a return path and the other a power
mains path from the radio. The transformer isolates the grounds. The
type of UNUN transformer here would be a voltage type for very long
wires and I would use a choke type for shorter random wires.

If you have the power mains ground connected to the antenna ground you
will have a ground loop. The concept is that a ground of the
measurement device (the radio) influences the signal. The problem
become worse as you add measurement devices with their own grounds.
Normally in a test setup all grounds would be brought together at the
DUT in a unified ground but that can¹t be done here.

The mains radio ground could be a direct DC connection or through a
capacitor which would be virtual or the radio may have a separate
terminal for antenna ground using an input transformer of various types
depending on the design.

The forgoing only considers the RF nature of what needs to be
accomplished and has no consideration for lightning protection, which
is a different issue altogether.

I¹m no expert on the lightning issue since it is pretty rare in
southern California but if I were in lightning country I would move.

Just kidding.

For lightning protection you would need an additional ground at the
side of the house where the antenna coax comes in besides the antenna
ground. At that ground the coax shield would be connected and a shunt
protection device like a gas tube would connect the center conductor to
the same ground. For the lightning ground to be complete you would have
to bring the AC mains power to the radio to this same ground. The mains
ground is also connected to this ground. The supply and return AC mains
wires would have shunt protection devices to this same ground and
between them. Now all wires to the radio will be referenced to the same
ground at the side of the house and lightning induced voltage will be
equalized at that ground on all wires going to the radio. I don¹t know
the electrical code in this regard and this side of the house lightning
ground may have to be the power entrance to the house to be legal. If a
big storm is coming I think most people would be better off
disconnecting the antenna and power to the radio.

A dipole antenna is a complete antenna and does not need a ground for
the RF signal aspect. I would favor a current BALUN for any complete
antenna type, which would provide isolation from the radio mains ground
and impedance transformation if needed.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote in message


For lightning protection you would need an additional ground at the
side of the house where the antenna coax comes in besides the antenna
ground. At that ground the coax shield would be connected and a shunt
protection device like a gas tube would connect the center conductor to
the same ground. For the lightning ground to be complete you would have
to bring the AC mains power to the radio to this same ground. The mains
ground is also connected to this ground. The supply and return AC mains
wires would have shunt protection devices to this same ground and
between them. Now all wires to the radio will be referenced to the same
ground at the side of the house and lightning induced voltage will be
equalized at that ground on all wires going to the radio. I don¹t know
the electrical code in this regard and this side of the house lightning
ground may have to be the power entrance to the house to be legal. If a
big storm is coming I think most people would be better off
disconnecting the antenna and power to the radio.

I guess it would be ok, if you installed a ground window. But here, I
see no point to separate the grounds. If I had noise on a power line
ground to the house, I would still probably receive it anyway using
any other ground, being the ground conductivity is pretty good here. I
don't ground my radios to the power line ground normally, so thats
something I don't have to worry about.
Actually, I normally don't ground my radio at all. It's grounded
through the antenna ground. Thats the only one I use. When using the
dipoles, I'm not grounded at all. Nada...
I guess this method is ok as long as all precautions are taken.
"ground window"
But still, overall, I don't like unbonded grounds. We have tons of
lightning here, even in the winter. Using separate grounds around here
is asking for big trouble. I guess one reason my views differ, is I
don't use random wires, or other transformer fed antennas. Even my
160m inv L is directly fed, and has a good match as is. I have a
ground system under that antenna, but it's also tied into all the
other grounding around the house. I don't get any power line noise on
that antenna even though I'm bonded to all grounds in the area. My
main concern about the multiple grounds is lightning related. I see
many that ask about using multiple unbonded grounds, etc, unrelated to
this thread. Most of the time, I consider it a bad idea. So does the
NEC. I always disconnect all lines and ground them outside at my
"ground window" when we have lightning in the area. I see no point in
gas tubes, because even if I had them, I would still unhook. Lightning
makes me paranoid... I've taken two strikes to my mast in the last
4 years or so. No damage at all so far..And the lightning strikes
about 10-15 ft away from where I'm sitting. MK

Mark Keith wrote:
I guess it would be ok, if you installed a ground window. But here, I
see no point to separate the grounds. If I had noise on a power line
ground to the house, I would still probably receive it anyway using
any other ground, being the ground conductivity is pretty good here. I
don't ground my radios to the power line ground normally, so thats
something I don't have to worry about.
Actually, I normally don't ground my radio at all. It's grounded
through the antenna ground. Thats the only one I use. When using the
dipoles, I'm not grounded at all. Nada...
I guess this method is ok as long as all precautions are taken.
"ground window"
But still, overall, I don't like unbonded grounds.

And well you shouldn't. They're against code.

While the article in the following link is specifically about lightning
safety, it puts to rest a number of myths about grounding, particularly the
dangerous notion that grounding to a single point causes "ground loops."**

The author is a long-time broadcast engineer and ham who has designed and
operated grounding systems that allow the equipment to survive direct
lightning strikes to the antennas.**

http://jplarc.ampr.org/calling/1996/...html#grounding

--
John Miller
Email address: domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

We gotta get out of this place,
If it's the last thing we ever do.
-The Animals