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#1
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#3
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dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote: (bpnjensen) wrote in message . com... *The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners? People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped ways? Thanks - Bruce Jensen As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here - I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a Google search for skewed propagation. After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and, especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably far less likely. And, NO, grayline propagation *alone* does not follow warped or skewed routes, following the clearly-defined GC grayline - but like any other propagation, can be susceptible to skewing by the geomagnetic gradient. Yes, it does, you are very much wrong. It's incredibly easy to see, just by looking at a grey line map. But heck, believe what you wanna believe! I remain, and always will be, dxAce Michigan USA Again, you are relying on a "flat" map that cannot possibly give an accurate representation of a "spherical" earth. Plotted on a spherical globe, an accurate model of the planet, the grayline is unmistakably circular around the globe, and traces a straight line across the earth's surface through the antipode. That goofy Mercator's-projection map you've been looking at all these years has got you flummoxed. You need to read up on maps and what they do the shape of things plotted on them. Believing in things that can be proven and demonstrated scientifically - everything else is theory, Bruce Jensen, semi-pro meteorologist, amateur astronomer, amateur geographer |
#4
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![]() bpnjensen wrote: dxAce wrote in message ... bpnjensen wrote: (bpnjensen) wrote in message . com... *The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners? People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped ways? Thanks - Bruce Jensen As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here - I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a Google search for skewed propagation. After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and, especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably far less likely. And, NO, grayline propagation *alone* does not follow warped or skewed routes, following the clearly-defined GC grayline - but like any other propagation, can be susceptible to skewing by the geomagnetic gradient. Yes, it does, you are very much wrong. It's incredibly easy to see, just by looking at a grey line map. But heck, believe what you wanna believe! I remain, and always will be, dxAce Michigan USA Again, you are relying on a "flat" map that cannot possibly give an accurate representation of a "spherical" earth. Plotted on a spherical globe, an accurate model of the planet, the grayline is unmistakably circular around the globe, and traces a straight line across the earth's surface through the antipode. That goofy Mercator's-projection map you've been looking at all these years has got you flummoxed. You need to read up on maps and what they do the shape of things plotted on them. Believing in things that can be proven and demonstrated scientifically - everything else is theory, Who the hell said I'm relying on a flat map...? It's clear to me that you don't understand grey line propagation, or the terminology that goes along with it. Someday perhaps you'll understand what the term 'crooked path' means. It's just a term! Get a frickin clue Jensen! You get back to me when you figure it out! Boggling. dxAce Michigan USA |
#5
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dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote: dxAce wrote in message ... \ Who the hell said I'm relying on a flat map...? It's either that or a globe - there ain't no in between...and it's obvious you aren't talking about a spherical surface It's clear to me that you don't understand grey line propagation, or the terminology that goes along with it. And you apprently have a monopoly on this? I don't see it. In fact, I would pay money to see you try to explain it. Someday perhaps you'll understand what the term 'crooked path' means. If someone would explain it to me without being a total jerk, maybe I would. But, maybe I'm asking the wrong person - all you do lately is call people 'tards for not agreeing with you...you don't contribute much. It's just a term! Get a frickin clue Jensen! Ah, I see, so you use it but it's meaningless? Your powers of communication are staggering. You get back to me when you figure it out! Boggling. To you, maybe - but based on what I've seen and read, you're the *only one* who doesn't understand - and not a single shred of what you've said here gives any indication otherwise. dxAce Michigan USA BJ ** |
#6
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![]() bpnjensen wrote: dxAce wrote in message ... bpnjensen wrote: dxAce wrote in message ... \ Who the hell said I'm relying on a flat map...? It's either that or a globe - there ain't no in between...and it's obvious you aren't talking about a spherical surface It's clear to me that you don't understand grey line propagation, or the terminology that goes along with it. And you apprently have a monopoly on this? I don't see it. In fact, I would pay money to see you try to explain it. Someday perhaps you'll understand what the term 'crooked path' means. If someone would explain it to me without being a total jerk, maybe I would. But, maybe I'm asking the wrong person - all you do lately is call people 'tards for not agreeing with you...you don't contribute much. It's just a term! Get a frickin clue Jensen! Ah, I see, so you use it but it's meaningless? Your powers of communication are staggering. You get back to me when you figure it out! Boggling. To you, maybe - but based on what I've seen and read, you're the *only one* who doesn't understand - and not a single shred of what you've said here gives any indication otherwise. Hey... don't have a damn hissy fit because you can't understand an extremely simple concept. And it is indeed simple, you're probably looking right at it, yet you can't see it. I certainly don't have a monopoly on the concept, nor the term itself, and I am not the originator of the term. But it is certainly descriptive of what occurs, I'm just sorry you can't visualise it. Truly boggling. dxAce Michigan USA |
#7
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![]() bpnjensen wrote: dxAce wrote in message ... bpnjensen wrote: (bpnjensen) wrote in message . com... *The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners? People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped ways? Thanks - Bruce Jensen As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here - I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a Google search for skewed propagation. After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and, especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably far less likely. And, NO, grayline propagation *alone* does not follow warped or skewed routes, following the clearly-defined GC grayline - but like any other propagation, can be susceptible to skewing by the geomagnetic gradient. Yes, it does, you are very much wrong. It's incredibly easy to see, just by looking at a grey line map. But heck, believe what you wanna believe! I remain, and always will be, dxAce Michigan USA Again, you are relying on a "flat" map that cannot possibly give an accurate representation of a "spherical" earth. Plotted on a spherical globe, an accurate model of the planet, the grayline is unmistakably circular around the globe, and traces a straight line across the earth's surface through the antipode. That goofy Mercator's-projection map you've been looking at all these years has got you flummoxed. You need to read up on maps and what they do the shape of things plotted on them. Believing in things that can be proven and demonstrated scientifically - everything else is theory, I think you may also be confusing a great circle path, (short path) and it's reciprocal, (long path) propagation with the separate phenomenon of grey line propagation, which can, and does follow other paths. All you need is an azimuthal map, and an overlay of the grey line to understand what is going on, and then the term 'crooked path' will become clear... and jump right up to smack you in the face. It's pretty damn simple, even for a semi-pro whatever... I'm gonna try and work with you here! dxAce Michigan USA |
#8
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![]() bpnjensen wrote: (bpnjensen) wrote in message . com... *The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners? People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped ways? Thanks - Bruce Jensen As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here - I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a Google search for skewed propagation. After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and, especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably far less likely. Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception. Now go ponder that grey line map again. I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple. dxAce Michigan USA |
#9
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dxAce wrote in message ...
Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception. Now go ponder that grey line map again. I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple. dxAce Michigan USA Here are some websites that not only describe some things about grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape (which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately 85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator). http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a wondrous DX signal to your ears. Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when the RRF shifts pathways. Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just bounce around as they like depending upon random events and conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors - ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway - Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route, and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south geomagnetic pole. If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps, modest skewing or rippling of the signal. Based on examining a number of pretty well-documented websites, and on what I know from astronomy and geophysics, I have few doubts about this description, which is admittedly general as it is. I would suggest that anyone who is unfamilar with maps and projections, and the distortions they introduce into plots of spherically-coordinated surfaces and lines, should look at some websites on maps. It is fascinating how maps and their various projections can be used to show specific points, while at the same time totally distorting others. Try Google searches for "map projection(s)" and for "skewed" or "grayline" + "propagation" as well. |
#10
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![]() bpnjensen wrote: dxAce wrote in message ... Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception. Now go ponder that grey line map again. I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple. dxAce Michigan USA Here are some websites that not only describe some things about grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape (which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately 85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator). http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a wondrous DX signal to your ears. Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when the RRF shifts pathways. Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just bounce around as they like depending upon random events and conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors - ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway - Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route, and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south geomagnetic pole. Yes, but it's not grey line! Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'. If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps, modest skewing or rippling of the signal. No ****. I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard. dxAce Michigan USA |
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