dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

You may consider me off your case. You're probably about my age,
maybe a little bit older, and we get to this point in life, little
things (like screwy misunderstandings on the internet) can set us off.

I do now understand what you were talking about - and honestly, thanks
for the subtle pointers - ultimately, I managed to obtain more
information came from an alternate source, and to my own satisfaction,
I was not completely wrong :-)

A grayline is still, however, a great circle, no matter what kind of
map you draw it on.

You are confusing a great circle route with grey line propagation. It is not the same.

A great circle route is the shortest path between two points. The reciprocal would be the long path.

No, I'm not confusing anything.

A "great circle" is, literally, a circle drawn around the
circumference of the world. A radio wave travelling along this circle
can reach a receiver either by the short route or the long route,
unless it is antipodal, in which case both routes are the same length.
The shape of this route does not depend on the grayline, that is
true. But...

Grey line propagation does not necessarily follow either the short path or the long path, but it does follow the grey line terminator, which results in the 'crooked path'.

It appears (and I may be wrong) that you define "crookedness" by the
your perception that the grayline is not a circle 7,960 miles in
diameter, but a another shape that corresponds to what you see on an
azimuthal map.

It is an astronomical fact that the cross-section of grayline
terminator has no geometric choice but to nearly center on a great
circle...when you get a grayline working for you, except for the
refractive crooks limited within the 85-arcminute-wide band of the
terminator, that signal is roughly following a great circle path. So,
for that brief period twice a day when the grayline crosses your
coordinates, yes, the signal is loosely following a great circle, with
variations from internal electromagnetic refractions.

If it should also happen to skew onto, or off of, a grayline on to
another great circle route enroute to your receiver (by virtue of an
electromagnetic gradient on the edge of a coronal oval absorption
zone), so much the better and more interesting.

I know you'll get it figured out sooner or later!

I did, thank you.

It's incredibly simple.

I agree.

It's the internal electronic workings that give
it that so-desirable ducting effect, and its crookedness.

It has nothing to do with electronics!

Sure it does - and now, I can give you several websites that will back
me up.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Per your other message,
a most pleasant evening to you as well, and lots of flea-powered DX as
well.
Bruce

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

You may consider me off your case. You're probably about my age,
maybe a little bit older, and we get to this point in life, little
things (like screwy misunderstandings on the internet) can set us off.

I do now understand what you were talking about - and honestly, thanks
for the subtle pointers - ultimately, I managed to obtain more
information came from an alternate source, and to my own satisfaction,
I was not completely wrong :-)

A grayline is still, however, a great circle, no matter what kind of
map you draw it on.

You are confusing a great circle route with grey line propagation. It is not the same.

A great circle route is the shortest path between two points. The reciprocal would be the long path.

No, I'm not confusing anything.

A "great circle" is, literally, a circle drawn around the
circumference of the world. A radio wave travelling along this circle
can reach a receiver either by the short route or the long route,
unless it is antipodal, in which case both routes are the same length.
The shape of this route does not depend on the grayline, that is
true. But...

Grey line propagation does not necessarily follow either the short path or the long path, but it does follow the grey line terminator, which results in the 'crooked path'.

It appears (and I may be wrong) that you define "crookedness" by the
your perception that the grayline is not a circle 7,960 miles in
diameter, but a another shape that corresponds to what you see on an
azimuthal map.

It IS 'crooked' because it does not follow the short path or the long path but rather the grey line terminator! It doesn't follow a straight line!, hence the term 'crooked path'.

You still don't get it I'm afraid.

I think you still have to understand grey line propagation.

If you were here I could show you the 'crooked path' graphically. But you're not...

It's just as plain as day!

Oh well, I just plain give up.

dxAce
Michigan
USA