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N.Korea (& China?) on the verge of collapse!
China & N. Korea launch harsh crackdowns
China arrests more than 800,000 people for endangering state security “State Security” arrests top 800,000 in 2004, and show no signs of slowing down: The number of people arrested by the Communists for “endangering state security” (Asia News) – the cadres’ catch-all crime for doing anything of which they do not approve – was 811,102 last year. http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=2731 2005 is promising to be another busy year for the brutal dictatorship – over 2,000 “appellants,” i.e., petitioners bringing their grievances against local cadres back home to Beijing – have been arrested Since convening China’s top advisory board, the National Committee of Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference on March 3, the police presence on the streets of Beijing has multiplied, with police vehicles running in every direction. The amount of public security this year is staggering, and seems to suggest a growing fear coming from the Chinese government. Preceding the two conferences, police, public security, national security, armed police, plainclothes police and urban riot police filled the main streets and small alleys of Beijing, overflowing into the surrounding areas. Many of the police are from provinces, cities and autonomous regions sent to “defend the two conferences.” The government is using more than 600,000 state personnel to “protect” the several thousand officials attending the conferences. http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-3-10/26930.html __________________________________________________ __ N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
"Li Changchun" wrote in
: Ah, I see that you do post. Sorry for the confusion. I look at a specific number of posts, either by poster or subject, and I have not remembered your posts. Excellent article on Propaganda at Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Coincidentally, it has a North Korean Poster at the top of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda Can you tell us what it says? Regretfully, my understanding of non-English languages is nil, I mean no offense by my request, I am just curious if you can read it. Regards Dr. Artaud Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
Unfortunately Dr., I do not understand Korean.
If you are interested in Korean "propaganda art" you may wish to browse - http://www.pyongyangartstudio.com/ However, I would refrain from making any purchase. "* Dr. Artaud *" wrote in message ... "Li Changchun" wrote in : Ah, I see that you do post. Sorry for the confusion. I look at a specific number of posts, either by poster or subject, and I have not remembered your posts. Excellent article on Propaganda at Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Coincidentally, it has a North Korean Poster at the top of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda Can you tell us what it says? Regretfully, my understanding of non-English languages is nil, I mean no offense by my request, I am just curious if you can read it. Regards Dr. Artaud Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high,
particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
"uncle arnie" wrote How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high, particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". Hardly, in case of a China banking collapse financial arrangements can always be made. We are talking about paper after all. Not gold bullion. Perhaps WalMart stock will collapse but the $US always rallys in times of serious worldwide calamity. The Chinese $Yuan may become worthless. As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts. You are seriously mistaken. If the hermit kingdom collapses there will be a human tragedy on the peninsula. The economic costs to S.Korea will be worse than what Germany has had to endure since the fall of the Berlin wall. Assuming hoards of refugees begin to cross the DMZ. Which is very likely. Then there is the geo-political question. Will China invade N.Korea and claim its territory for repayment of decades of economic support? Or will China allow a free and Democratic state to prosper on its economically suffering Northeast border with the peninsula? If so it would be a first as well as a strategic blow to the Communist regime in Beijing. China historically prefers weak, non-threatening regimes as neighbors and works to maintain its supremacy over all its immediate neighbors. Korean history extends into what is now Northeast China. There are Korean claims to these lands. China is well aware of these claims and has summarily rewrote its history books in an attempt to erase these claims. The best scenario for the West would be if one collapses immediately followed by the other. Neither regime would stand which is why China will not pressure N.Korea in regard to nuclear negotiations. China can very easily resolve the nuclear issue since all of N.Korea's energy comes from China. Simply turn off a spigot and flick the big switch and Kim Jong Il is complete history. Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
Li Changchun wrote:
"uncle arnie" wrote How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high, particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". Hardly, in case of a China banking collapse financial arrangements can always be made. We are talking about paper after all. Not gold bullion. Perhaps WalMart stock will collapse but the $US always rallys in times of serious worldwide calamity. The Chinese $Yuan may become worthless. The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts. You are seriously mistaken. If the hermit kingdom collapses there will be a human tragedy on the peninsula. The economic costs to S.Korea will be worse than what Germany has had to endure since the fall of the Berlin wall. Assuming hoards of refugees begin to cross the DMZ. Which is very likely. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. Then there is the geo-political question. Will China invade N.Korea and claim its territory for repayment of decades of economic support? Or will China allow a free and Democratic state to prosper on its economically suffering Northeast border with the peninsula? If so it would be a first as well as a strategic blow to the Communist regime in Beijing. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. China may send troops to ensure "stability". But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. China historically prefers weak, non-threatening regimes as neighbors and works to maintain its supremacy over all its immediate neighbors. Korean history extends into what is now Northeast China. There are Korean claims to these lands. China is well aware of these claims and has summarily rewrote its history books in an attempt to erase these claims. The best scenario for the West would be if one collapses immediately followed by the other. Neither regime would stand which is why China will not pressure N.Korea in regard to nuclear negotiations. China can very easily resolve the nuclear issue since all of N.Korea's energy comes from China. Simply turn off a spigot and flick the big switch and Kim Jong Il is complete history. If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
"running dogg" The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. What you are likely to see in China is the collapse of their banks, which are already insolvent and technically bankrupt, and the disentigration of the CCP. Neither of which will likely spell the end of their manufacturing base. In the very short term there may be disruptions but it would quickly recover and without the CCPoverhead possibly become much more robust. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. Your love of the CCP has seriously blinded you to a brutal muderous regime which is deeply hated by their own people. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. If the N.Korean side of the DMZ becomes demilitarized because of a regime colapse you can be sure that waves of refugees will find a way across or around it. China would also see refugees. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. I see you are assuming that another brutal regime will take hold. But that is not the scenario I am discussing. Besides another regime would simply collapse as quikely as the old. China may send troops to ensure "stability". Indeed, and that would be viewed as a very provactive move in Seoul and the West. But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. Has it occured to you that whomever overthrows Kim Jong Il may well be "friendly" with the South? If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. You make many assumptions here about many countries. China is well known for saber rattling against Taiwan. Taiwan businesses invest heavily in China as well. The scenario of any nuclear exchange in the region is very remote. Regarding N.Korea, even if Kim Jong Il does indeed have a "couple" of nuclear tipped weapons, considering the latest intelligence and if his military is even slightly coherent", they would likely depose of him and refrain. In any case, nuclear weapons aside, the Korean peninsular would become the immediate focus of attention in the West and Beijing and Seoul would have many urgent and pressing meetings to attend. |
Li Changchun wrote:
"running dogg" The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. What you are likely to see in China is the collapse of their banks, which are already insolvent and technically bankrupt, and the disentigration of the CCP. Neither of which will likely spell the end of their manufacturing base. In the very short term there may be disruptions but it would quickly recover and without the CCPoverhead possibly become much more robust. Possibly. But China has a tradition of warlord rule, and for much of its history has been broken into feuding fiefdoms, despite the common culture and language of the Chinese people. Then again, the same situation persisted in Italy for a thousand years, and that country is now stable and prosperous. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. Your love of the CCP has seriously blinded you to a brutal muderous regime which is deeply hated by their own people. You seem to make this same curious error over and over again, equating any concern about China's stability and potential disruptions to the west if that stability were to be disrupted with love of the CCP. I doubt most westerners love the CCP, I sure don't. But it's the only thing holding the country together. Like I said, China has a long, bloody history of warlordism and civil war, and any collapse of the CCP might bring a return to the bad old days. This bad situation-a brutal dictatorship being the only thing keeping the world's most populous country from sliding into chaos-is exacerbated greatly by the fact that China now has virtually ALL of the world's industrial capacity. There is no more industrial base in America, Europe, Japan. It's all been moved to China. If China descends into chaos the rest of the world will go with it. Blame your beloved capitalists for being too willing to cozy up to a regime that could be toppled by a mass movement like Falun Gong and that allows massive pollution and 10 cent a day wages. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. If the N.Korean side of the DMZ becomes demilitarized because of a regime colapse you can be sure that waves of refugees will find a way across or around it. China would also see refugees. Maybe to start with there would be a lot of North Koreans attempting to cross, but it might die down after a while. There was no massive refugee crisis when European Communism collapsed. Most of the East Germans who fled into West Berlin right after the wall came down eventually went back home. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. I see you are assuming that another brutal regime will take hold. But that is not the scenario I am discussing. Besides another regime would simply collapse as quikely as the old. I didn't say that another centralized dictatorship would take hold, I said that the country would descend into warlord rule and possibly civil war. There is a difference. China may send troops to ensure "stability". Indeed, and that would be viewed as a very provactive move in Seoul and the West. But I don't think that it would trigger a western invasion of NK. But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. Has it occured to you that whomever overthrows Kim Jong Il may well be "friendly" with the South? You're assuming that a pro Western ruler replaces Kim. But I'm saying that no ruler may replace Kim, that NK would break up instead, and that would likely be much worse than a pro West regime in the North being toppled by the Chinese. If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. You make many assumptions here about many countries. China is well known for saber rattling against Taiwan. Taiwan businesses invest heavily in China as well. The scenario of any nuclear exchange in the region is very remote. Regarding N.Korea, even if Kim Jong Il does indeed have a "couple" of nuclear tipped weapons, considering the latest intelligence and if his military is even slightly coherent", they would likely depose of him and refrain. It's possible, but there would be enough loyalists to go ahead with the Bomb drop and force a US invasion. In any case, nuclear weapons aside, the Korean peninsular would become the immediate focus of attention in the West and Beijing and Seoul would have many urgent and pressing meetings to attend. This at least is true. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
You have it just about right running dogg. Good collection of points here.
running dogg wrote: Li Changchun wrote: "uncle arnie" wrote How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high, particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". Hardly, in case of a China banking collapse financial arrangements can always be made. We are talking about paper after all. Not gold bullion. Perhaps WalMart stock will collapse but the $US always rallys in times of serious worldwide calamity. The Chinese $Yuan may become worthless. The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts. You are seriously mistaken. If the hermit kingdom collapses there will be a human tragedy on the peninsula. The economic costs to S.Korea will be worse than what Germany has had to endure since the fall of the Berlin wall. Assuming hoards of refugees begin to cross the DMZ. Which is very likely. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. Then there is the geo-political question. Will China invade N.Korea and claim its territory for repayment of decades of economic support? Or will China allow a free and Democratic state to prosper on its economically suffering Northeast border with the peninsula? If so it would be a first as well as a strategic blow to the Communist regime in Beijing. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. China may send troops to ensure "stability". But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. China historically prefers weak, non-threatening regimes as neighbors and works to maintain its supremacy over all its immediate neighbors. Korean history extends into what is now Northeast China. There are Korean claims to these lands. China is well aware of these claims and has summarily rewrote its history books in an attempt to erase these claims. The best scenario for the West would be if one collapses immediately followed by the other. Neither regime would stand which is why China will not pressure N.Korea in regard to nuclear negotiations. China can very easily resolve the nuclear issue since all of N.Korea's energy comes from China. Simply turn off a spigot and flick the big switch and Kim Jong Il is complete history. If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:52:19 -0000, "* Dr. Artaud *"
wrote: "Li Changchun" wrote in : Ah, I see that you do post. Sorry for the confusion. I look at a specific number of posts, either by poster or subject, and I have not remembered your posts. Excellent article on Propaganda at Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Coincidentally, it has a North Korean Poster at the top of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda Can you tell us what it says? Regretfully, my understanding of non-English languages is nil, I mean no offense by my request, I am just curious if you can read it. Regards Dr. Artaud Roughly as follows, and since it takes effort to translate the manga histronics of the slogans I probably won't do more or comment more about anything beyond this email unless radio related. Top slogan: Against oppression -- a mighty blow i.e., smash US's oppression of us with a crushing assualt or strike Bottom: Against castigation -- ruthless beating, i.e., merciless punishment for the way we are derided and treated. These are Chinese character derived so although simple syllables are saturated with varied meanings that cannot be simply translated into another language except Chinese or Japanese.. By the way, North Koreans live and breathe these slogans. They fervently believe them and will gladly die for them, especially the troops and average person. . |
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