"running dogg" wrote in message
...

You claim that double digit growth starting from zero is not impressive.
But considering how backward China was 30 years ago, much like the
Soviet Union was in the 80s, China's progress is remarkable indeed.
Russia hasn't managed to turn things around as well as China has (at
least economically speaking). Yes, salaries in China are low compared to
the US. But in China, it takes a lot less money to live large than in
the US. In India, many workers earn US$70 a month, but in India, that
puts them solidly into the middle class. Meanwhile, Americans who make
$50k a year struggle to pay their bills. It's all relative.


I'm glad someone besides me can see this. I've always marvelled at the
people that talk about 'sweat shops' in second and third world countries
that pay very small percentages of what we make in the US being evil. Thing
is, as you stated above, the standard of living in those countries allows
for making much less money than in the US for a comparable lifestyle. In
Thailand for instance, the median annual income is around $6000, yet most
there still have most of the same conveniences we take for granted, and
there are many US products available in the stores at much less than we pay
for them.

Brenda Ann wrote:


"running dogg" wrote in message
...

You claim that double digit growth starting from zero is not impressive.
But considering how backward China was 30 years ago, much like the
Soviet Union was in the 80s, China's progress is remarkable indeed.
Russia hasn't managed to turn things around as well as China has (at
least economically speaking). Yes, salaries in China are low compared to
the US. But in China, it takes a lot less money to live large than in
the US. In India, many workers earn US$70 a month, but in India, that
puts them solidly into the middle class. Meanwhile, Americans who make
$50k a year struggle to pay their bills. It's all relative.


I'm glad someone besides me can see this. I've always marvelled at the
people that talk about 'sweat shops' in second and third world countries
that pay very small percentages of what we make in the US being evil. Thing
is, as you stated above, the standard of living in those countries allows
for making much less money than in the US for a comparable lifestyle. In
Thailand for instance, the median annual income is around $6000, yet most
there still have most of the same conveniences we take for granted, and
there are many US products available in the stores at much less than we pay
for them.

Well, working conditions in China still aren't that great, and some of
the workplaces there would qualify as sweatshops by most measures of
working conditions, but they pay well enough for urban Chinese to enjoy
a pretty good standard of living. In the countryside, things are much
worse, however, since agriculture is still collectivized from what I
know, and most rural peasants barely scrape by. Most of the anger at the
CCP is in the countryside. Also, many Asian cultures will tolerate much
more political repression than Americans if they have lots of economic
freedom and lots of money. Look at Singapore-very rich, very capitalist,
yet very repressive politically. Vietnam is another prosperous Asian
nation where the Communist Party still rules with an iron fist. For
decades South Korea, where you live, was very repressed politically yet
very capitalist. Westerners tend to assume that capitalism and democracy
go together, I guess it's the result of decades of Cold War propaganda.
But that's not necessarily the case. Deng Xiaoping acheived what
Gorbachev could not-turn a communist country capitalist without chaos
breaking out and the whole society falling to pieces.


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"running dogg" wrote in message
...
Brenda Ann wrote:


"running dogg" wrote in message
...

You claim that double digit growth starting from zero is not
impressive.
But considering how backward China was 30 years ago, much like the
Soviet Union was in the 80s, China's progress is remarkable indeed.
Russia hasn't managed to turn things around as well as China has (at
least economically speaking). Yes, salaries in China are low compared
to
the US. But in China, it takes a lot less money to live large than in
the US. In India, many workers earn US$70 a month, but in India, that
puts them solidly into the middle class. Meanwhile, Americans who make
$50k a year struggle to pay their bills. It's all relative.


I'm glad someone besides me can see this. I've always marvelled at the
people that talk about 'sweat shops' in second and third world countries
that pay very small percentages of what we make in the US being evil.
Thing
is, as you stated above, the standard of living in those countries
allows
for making much less money than in the US for a comparable lifestyle. In
Thailand for instance, the median annual income is around $6000, yet
most
there still have most of the same conveniences we take for granted, and
there are many US products available in the stores at much less than we
pay
for them.

Well, working conditions in China still aren't that great, and some of
the workplaces there would qualify as sweatshops by most measures of
working conditions, but they pay well enough for urban Chinese to enjoy
a pretty good standard of living. In the countryside, things are much
worse, however, since agriculture is still collectivized from what I
know, and most rural peasants barely scrape by. Most of the anger at the
CCP is in the countryside. Also, many Asian cultures will tolerate much
more political repression than Americans if they have lots of economic
freedom and lots of money. Look at Singapore-very rich, very capitalist,
yet very repressive politically. Vietnam is another prosperous Asian
nation where the Communist Party still rules with an iron fist. For
decades South Korea, where you live, was very repressed politically yet
very capitalist. Westerners tend to assume that capitalism and democracy
go together, I guess it's the result of decades of Cold War propaganda.
But that's not necessarily the case. Deng Xiaoping acheived what
Gorbachev could not-turn a communist country capitalist without chaos
breaking out and the whole society falling to pieces.



Agreed on the working conditions. As far as rural versus urban living, this
is often the case, even in more open and prosperous societies.

Gorby (whom I still think got the shaft, and did a lot to change the former
USSR) never got the chance to make his reforms under his much more
reasonable timetable. You can't change a disaster into a success overnight,
which is what his political opponents were insisting he do. Had he been
given the chance, I'm sure that Russia would be doing quite well by now.
The man had guts, that's for sure.

Brenda Ann wrote:


"running dogg" wrote in message
...
Brenda Ann wrote:


"running dogg" wrote in message
...

You claim that double digit growth starting from zero is not
impressive.
But considering how backward China was 30 years ago, much like the
Soviet Union was in the 80s, China's progress is remarkable indeed.
Russia hasn't managed to turn things around as well as China has (at
least economically speaking). Yes, salaries in China are low compared
to
the US. But in China, it takes a lot less money to live large than in
the US. In India, many workers earn US$70 a month, but in India, that
puts them solidly into the middle class. Meanwhile, Americans who make
$50k a year struggle to pay their bills. It's all relative.


I'm glad someone besides me can see this. I've always marvelled at the
people that talk about 'sweat shops' in second and third world countries
that pay very small percentages of what we make in the US being evil.
Thing
is, as you stated above, the standard of living in those countries
allows
for making much less money than in the US for a comparable lifestyle. In
Thailand for instance, the median annual income is around $6000, yet
most
there still have most of the same conveniences we take for granted, and
there are many US products available in the stores at much less than we
pay
for them.

Well, working conditions in China still aren't that great, and some of
the workplaces there would qualify as sweatshops by most measures of
working conditions, but they pay well enough for urban Chinese to enjoy
a pretty good standard of living. In the countryside, things are much
worse, however, since agriculture is still collectivized from what I
know, and most rural peasants barely scrape by. Most of the anger at the
CCP is in the countryside. Also, many Asian cultures will tolerate much
more political repression than Americans if they have lots of economic
freedom and lots of money. Look at Singapore-very rich, very capitalist,
yet very repressive politically. Vietnam is another prosperous Asian
nation where the Communist Party still rules with an iron fist. For
decades South Korea, where you live, was very repressed politically yet
very capitalist. Westerners tend to assume that capitalism and democracy
go together, I guess it's the result of decades of Cold War propaganda.
But that's not necessarily the case. Deng Xiaoping acheived what
Gorbachev could not-turn a communist country capitalist without chaos
breaking out and the whole society falling to pieces.



Agreed on the working conditions. As far as rural versus urban living, this
is often the case, even in more open and prosperous societies.

Small farmers have never had it easy, even in America. But collective
farms greatly worsen the situation.

Gorby (whom I still think got the shaft, and did a lot to change the former
USSR) never got the chance to make his reforms under his much more
reasonable timetable. You can't change a disaster into a success overnight,
which is what his political opponents were insisting he do. Had he been
given the chance, I'm sure that Russia would be doing quite well by now.
The man had guts, that's for sure.

I always viewed it as a situation where events got away from him. China
was able to make the transition mostly without the West noticing. Russia
had the US hounding them, plus 15,000 nukes pointed at their heads with
the person at the switch avidly reading Hal Lindsey. On top of that,
Russians had been listening to VOA for 30 years and wanted all of
America's goodies right now. Gorby's situation was a lot less favorable
for a successful transition to capitalism than Deng's.


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How much time have you two spent living in China???????????????????????

jiabao fukuafeng

"Jim" wrote

There is nothing "alleged" about it. It's a fact, and it's quite
spectacular.

The Chinese Communist Party told you so, therefor it is?

No, the US State Department told me:


http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/21124.pdf#search='china's%20econ
omic%20growth'

Congressional Research Service
China's Economic Conditions
Updated May 21, 2003
Wayne M. Morrison
Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Trade Division

A paper published to support the World Trade Org. policies with China - LOL!

Let us examine the source of the statistics used to support this paper's
report.

Pg 5, China's Average Annual Real GDP Growth Rates: 1960-2002
Source: Official Chinese government data.

Pg 7, Source: Chinese government statistics.

Pg 8, Note: PPP data for China should be interpreted with caution. China is
not a fully developed market economy; the prices of many goods and services
are distorted due to price controls and government subsidies.

Pg 9, Source: International Monetary Fund, Direction of Trade Statistics and
official Chinese statistics.

Pg 10, Source: Official Chinese trade data.
Note: Chinese data on its bilateral trade often differ substantially from
the official trade data of other countries on their trade with China.

Pg 11, Source: Official Chinese trade data.
Source: Official Chinese trade statistics.

NEXT! Here is Jim's 2nd attempt to pull a rabbit out of his search engine
hat:

and several private economists, here for starters:


http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.e...na_CBB03.pdf#s
earch='china's%20economic%20growth'

Do a little research of your own. I'm not here to do it for you.

You're welcome for the education.

Jim

Jeffrey D. Sachs & Wing Thye Woo
Earth Institute at Columbia University
[I won't comment about Columbia U. and their Jihadists - LOL]

Pg 45: "Data caluculated from [China] State Statistics Bureau, Comprehensive
Statistical Data and Materials on 50 Years of New China ,1999."

Pg 48: "These were 'estimated' based on communication[?] with [Chinese]
'government' economists."
"Source: Citigroup 'estimates'."

And who are "Zhou and Wang" (Zhou Fangsheng and Xiaolu Wang) the often
quoted "sources" in the above link?

Zhou Fangsheng: director of the National Economic Research Institute,
Beijing, China, which is under the CCP's Ministry of Finance. [The CCP's
economic propaganda dept.]

[Please note the following two quotes were from Chinese Communist Party
regulated web sites.]

Zhou Fangsheng - "There are no accurate figures available nationwide on the
operations of the restructured enterprises. This is because they are no
longer managed by government departments."
http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/107811.htm

LOL - what he is saying is there are NO reliable Chinese statistics
whatsoever, period.

Zhou Fangsheng - "Presently, there isn't any accurate data nationwide at all
that may reflect the conditions of survival and development of enterprises
after restructuring, because after enterprise restructuring, they are no
longer under administration of the government departments. And it is
therefore very hard to make data tracking and statistics."
http://www.eobserver.com.cn/english/readnews.asp?ID=237

LOL - these statements are hilarious! If Zhou Fangsheng had access to or
EVER published "accurate figures" without the blessings of the CCP he would
most likely be dead.

Example: "New York Times researcher Zhao Yan was formally arrested last
October for revealing state secrets, a crime which carries a maximum
sentence of death. The secret was believed to be the news that former leader
Jiang Zemin was retiring from politics."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0/AR2005053001
207_pf.html
"...a Chinese reporter in Hunan province Shi Tao was sentenced to 10 years
in prison for providing state secrets to foreigners."
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-05-30-voa4.cfm

Xiaolu Wang [a Phd candidate in CanahDuh]
"One good spy is worth 10,000 soldiers." - Sun Tzu, ancient Chinese military
strategist.

"The CCP's Ministry of State Security (MSS) often co-opts Chinese travelers,
especially businesspeople, scientists and academics, to gather intel or
purchase technology while they're in America."

"The MSS especially prizes overseas Chinese students, hi-tech workers and
researchers living in the U.S. because of their access to sensitive
technology and research/development that Beijing can use for civilian and
military purposes."
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=18250

CanahDuh is also a major target of the CCP. There are numerous articles to
support this if YOU do YOUR research.

I read your links Jim. Your idea of education falls far short of my
experience. Consider yourself "slightly" enlightened. To provide more
enlightenment for your feeble mind would require exorcism. At least next
time read what you post from your search engine results and do YOUR
research.

Ciao!