Would a vertical antenna such as the Hustler 6BTV operate (Transmit and
Recieve) well on a ground mount in the middle of a concrete parking lot if
the concrete contained a lot of the concrete reinforcing wire? The parking
lot is next to a large lake as well and the ground stays pretty wet most of
the time.


JR

My guess is that the antenna would work better than one with no radials
but poorer than one with proper radials. The only answer is to try it
and quickly before a car runs over it. I wonder at the effect of no
radial being at the correct length and the possibility of harmonic
generation caused by the reinforcing wires. Note that broadcasting
stations tend to use 180 quarter wave radials spaced at 2 degrees to
get maximum efficiency. If you could somehow lay 8 quarter wave radials
on the ground it would give you a basis for comparison.

Concrete reinforcement wire looks sort of like square section fence
wire.Of course,the wire helps to hold the concrete together and helps
keep the concrete from cracking.
cuhulin

You would probally do better by attaching your antenna wire to some bed
springs.That's no joke either.
cuhulin

"JR" wrote:

Would a vertical antenna such as the Hustler 6BTV operate (Transmit and
Recieve) well on a ground mount in the middle of a concrete parking lot if
the concrete contained a lot of the concrete reinforcing wire? The parking
lot is next to a large lake as well and the ground stays pretty wet most of
the time.


JR


A concrete pad is very close to being an excellent ground system. If
it has all the rebar welded together and a strap brought up for you to
connect to, it IS an excellent ground system, called a Ufer ground.

Concrete is a poor conductor, but there are a lot of paths for that
poor conductor to reach surrounding soil, which may even be a poorer
conductor. A Ufer ground takes advantage of that. IIRC, it was
invented in WWII for keeping quonset huts filled with ammo from
blowing up from static discharge. Turns out it makes a good RF and a
good lightning system ground.

If I ever have a house built, I'll make sure it has a Ufer ground, so
I don't have to deal with ground rods and radials.


--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940

Just build a backyard patio out of concrete with lots of wire in the mix
and you are all set.
cuhulin

Cuhulin,

Actually an In-the-Ground Swimming Pool with a Full Circle
Copper Ground Cable about 2 to 3 Feet down in the ground and
completely encircling the Pool; that is also Bonded to the
House's AC Electrical System Ground - Is a Real Ground Sink )

iane ~ RHF

EFR,
Thank You for sharing the information and point me in the direction of
the
Ufer Ground including Concrete-Encased Electrodes and the Grounding
Electrode Systems

ABOUT - The Ufer Ground
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...a/message/7208

The "Ufer" Ground
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
http://www.scott-inc.com/img/ufer.gif

Technical Note - A New Look at the Ufer Ground System
- by Chris Scott - Radio World 1989
http://www.scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

Ufer and Tower Grounding - Lightning Protection Information
http://www.comm-omni.com/polyweb/ufertower.htm

Concrete-Encased Electrodes and the Grounding Electrode System
- by Michael J. Johnston

Ufer Ground - Technical Bulletin :
http://www.sonoma-county.org/prmd/do...in/ufergnd.htm
Technical Details :
When available the building reinforcing steel (rebar)
is the preferred method for providing an electrode.
Concrete Encased Electrodes (UFER) can consist of
either a minimum of 20' of No. 4 copper wire or two or
more No. 4 or larger rebar installed in the foundation
with a minimum of 2" of concrete cover. When using rebar,
it must be spliced a minimum of 40 bar diameters,
ex. 40bd x 1/2"=20" min splice length.
http://www.sonoma-county.org/prmd/do...Electrodes.gif

Diagram of Ufer Metods and Driven Ground Rod Electrodes

The Best Way to Install Ground Rods ?
- by Gary Coffman [KE4ZV]
http://www.pupman.com/listarchives/1.../msg00016.html

Assembling your Antenna System
Part III - Constructing of the Tower Base
http://www.astrosurf.org/lombry/qsl-tower-assembly3.htm
Note - A Word of Caution about the Ufer Ground

Typical Residential Electrical Service Grounding Diagram
Service Entrance Grounding and Bonding Diagrams
http://www.ci.lompoc.ca.us/departmen...douts/elec.pdf
http://www.ventura.org/vcrma/build_s...s_info/e-8.pdf

All About Lightning Protection
http://www.hamradio-badarc.co.uk/project/earthproj1.htm
Part IV - The External Grounding System
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Radi...unding-dwg.gif
Single Point Ground Panel (SPGP)

Grounding verses Bonding Part 6
- by Mike Holt
http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_g..._vs_bonding_6/

Tips for Grounding an Antenna in Thin Soils
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=134129&page=1

eHAM - One of the Most Common Questions in the
Elmers Section is about Grounds and Grounding.
http://www.eham.net/articles/12459

QUESTION - What Does UFER stand for ?
{ Herbert G. Ufer the man's last name }


that's ufer, Ufer. UFER ! for me now - iane ~ RHF