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#1
March 13th 06, 04:10 AM
posted to rec.radio.shortwave
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The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
In article ,
Bob Miller wrote: On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 22:28:19 GMT, Telamon wrote: In article , wrote: On 12 Mar 2006 01:08:39 -0800, wrote: Hey, you asked for opinions in your first post of the thread. If you don't like my opinions, thats too bad. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna. Do you think when I switch from a SWL to a ham band, I need to switch antenna types? LOL...You guys kill me.. MK Well how can your receiver work with an antenna made for transmit 8-} Basically (theoretically) an antenna made for transmit is just as suitable for receive. This is called reciprocity. This concept falls apart two ways in practicality: 1. The transmit situation has to handle power the receive situation does not so for transmit the antenna elements need to be "beefier." Most transmitting antennas use wire about the same size as what's found in receiving-only antennas, 14 or 16 guage, maybe 12 guage for full legal power. Ever calculate antenna resistance at HF for those gauges? What is the expected loss for some band you worked on? What is legal power for hams on HF? 1500 watts? And is that continuous power or PEP? 2. A less than full size antenna made resonant may work very well for transmit but for receive not as well. Less than full size for receive lowers the antenna efficiency. I seriously doubt you could hear the difference between a full size antenna at frequency, and one slightly shorter for space considerations. On receive the antenna efficiency is related to is size by means of radiation resistance. Antenna efficiency is directly dependent on the combination of radiation and antenna element resistance (DC+AC). This affects the received signal power just like it does for transmit but like I said on transmit you can use materials with higher dielectric constants and reactive components to launch an EM wave efficiently. However, on receive you can't affect the environment around the antenna in the same fashion as the antenna itself therefor what I stated stands unless you can refute it. The key here in the non-reciprocity of antenna performance is the fact that "you can't affect the environment around the antenna in the same fashion as the antenna itself." The environment around the antenna has an impedance value not affected by the antenna but antenna size directly correlates to radiation resistance. Think about it. If you were right then everyone would be using a whip antenna. Why bother to build full size antennas? -- Telamon Ventura, California |
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#2
March 13th 06, 03:51 PM
posted to rec.radio.shortwave
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The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 04:10:24 GMT, Telamon
wrote: In article , Bob Miller wrote: On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 22:28:19 GMT, Telamon wrote: In article , wrote: On 12 Mar 2006 01:08:39 -0800, wrote: Hey, you asked for opinions in your first post of the thread. If you don't like my opinions, thats too bad. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna. Do you think when I switch from a SWL to a ham band, I need to switch antenna types? LOL...You guys kill me.. MK Well how can your receiver work with an antenna made for transmit 8-} Basically (theoretically) an antenna made for transmit is just as suitable for receive. This is called reciprocity. This concept falls apart two ways in practicality: 1. The transmit situation has to handle power the receive situation does not so for transmit the antenna elements need to be "beefier." Most transmitting antennas use wire about the same size as what's found in receiving-only antennas, 14 or 16 guage, maybe 12 guage for full legal power. Ever calculate antenna resistance at HF for those gauges? What is the expected loss for some band you worked on? Well, I could have built my 80 meter dipole out of copper pipe, but the neighbors might have objected -- I used 18 guage stranded, which is fine for my 100 watts, and would probably handle legal power, too. For my 20 meter inverted L, I used #26 stranded. It's hooked to a mightly 3.5 watt qrp rig. What is legal power for hams on HF? 1500 watts? 1500, and I believe it's continuous, but you can check the FCC site if you wish. And is that continuous power or PEP? 2. A less than full size antenna made resonant may work very well for transmit but for receive not as well. Less than full size for receive lowers the antenna efficiency. I seriously doubt you could hear the difference between a full size antenna at frequency, and one slightly shorter for space considerations. On receive the antenna efficiency is related to is size by means of radiation resistance. Antenna efficiency is directly dependent on the combination of radiation and antenna element resistance (DC+AC). This affects the received signal power just like it does for transmit but like I said on transmit you can use materials with higher dielectric constants and reactive components to launch an EM wave efficiently. However, on receive you can't affect the environment around the antenna in the same fashion as the antenna itself therefor what I stated stands unless you can refute it. The key here in the non-reciprocity of antenna performance is the fact that "you can't affect the environment around the antenna in the same fashion as the antenna itself." The environment around the antenna has an impedance value not affected by the antenna but antenna size directly correlates to radiation resistance. Think about it. If you were right then everyone would be using a whip antenna. Why bother to build full size antennas? Well, they're more broad-banded, for one thing. Once again, less-than-half-wave antennas, properly tweaked, are as loud to my ears as half-wave antennas. I know I'm right because I'm talking about what I hear. As far as whip antennas go, actully, a lot of hams do pretty good on 75 meters with highly tweaked 6- or 8-foot whips on their cars. bob k5qwg |
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