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IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... [snip] Would the new, improved nighttime IBOC AM stations be luring listeners from other distractions such as TV and the internet, or would they just be stealing audience from the non-IBOC AM stations and FM stations? I have no idea, as we don ot know where they go. But if the big AMs get decent daytime numbers, it is possible they will keep thse shares at night. [snip] You don't know where the listeners are going when they aren't listening to the radio? It sounds like the industry has no idea what it's competing against. Yet they seem to think IBOC is going to fix -- ahhhhhhh -- something. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message om... Yes. The model is free for listener, paid by advertiser. There are nearly a billion analog radios out there, so there is no effective way to do pay radio, and the entire licensing system would have to change, something I doubt the FCC and the folks on the Hill would stand for. As I understand, the FCC already allows SCA channels to be subscription. I'm sure the FCC allowed some TV channels to go subscription about 25 years ago. The government has already allowed pay broadcasting. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at night and the local/regiona AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message et... texting alone is not a salable benefit. I can't think of a way to make it so. It is, however, an added benefit, especially to HD digital audio. Seems like the benefits of texting would be the same regardless of the method of audio modulation. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message om... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message et... AM underindexes FM at night. In other words, a higher percentage of night listening is to FM than in the daytime. Part of this is the night interference on most AM channels,a nd the additional interference coming from home electronics. HD at night would give AM the ability to compete better at night by those stations with decent signals, which leaves out about 75% of all AMs anyway. Has the radio establishment lobbied as hard for a reduction of electromagnetic pollution from home electronics as it has for IBOC? Since it only affects Am significantly, and does not affect AMs with good signals, we are talking about very few stations that are otherwise viable being affected. I take it that electromagnatic interference from home electronics isn't significantly reducing the radio audience even though they are listening to analog radios. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message om... he real issue is that most AMs in the US do not serve today's metro areas, and in more rural areas, most AMs were killed already by docket 80-90 drop ins. I might be familiar to the issue, but I don't know what "docket 80-90 drop ins" is. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at night and the local/regiona AMs
Frank Dresser wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message et... texting alone is not a salable benefit. I can't think of a way to make it so. It is, however, an added benefit, especially to HD digital audio. Seems like the benefits of texting would be the same regardless of the method of audio modulation. Frank Dresser Text is more easily implemented, without potential artifact, with more possible versatility in digital modulation, than as an analog adjunct. |
IBOC at night and the local/regiona AMs
David,
David Eduardo schreef: Right, but RDS would make a good low cost starting point for an expanded FM text service. And we'd have it, if somebody thought there was real money in it. Nobody wants to fight for RDS as it has no competitive advantage and is not applicable to AM. As I said, it was developed for European simulcasts to allow automatic signal seeking, which is not an issue in the USA. It can also be used for other applications. In Brussels, there is a service where all signs on the busstops are dynamically updated based on the real possition of the busses. The information broadcasted by the central server of the bus-company to update the signed is done in a RDS channel of a FM station. Another applications are DGPS and TMC (real-time road traffic information) which are broadcasted over FM/RDS. BTW. There is now also a AM-version of RDS: AMSS. See he http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_305-murphy.pdf It's already in use by the BBC WS (on 648 Khz on MW and on SW) and by RTL (234 Khz LW). There are not a lot of receivers which use it, but the new FM/AM/DAB/DRM receiver of Roberts does. http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1411 These kind of systems have been in use for quite a long time now. The LW-transmittor of France Inter (162 Khz) is used to broadcast time-signals (actually the same format at the DCF77 transmittor in Germany but with a different modulation-sceme). The BBC radio4 transmittor at 198 Khz is used to control (IIRC) day- and night-tariff for electricity. Cheerio! Kr. Bonne. |
IBOC at night and the local/regiona AMs
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message ... Frank Dresser wrote: "David Eduardo" wrote in message et... texting alone is not a salable benefit. I can't think of a way to make it so. It is, however, an added benefit, especially to HD digital audio. Seems like the benefits of texting would be the same regardless of the method of audio modulation. Frank Dresser Text is more easily implemented, without potential artifact, with more possible versatility in digital modulation, than as an analog adjunct. OK, I see the point. RDS has the same problems as SCA as far as FM goes. But, as I understand, there's some unused overhead in RDS such as font selection and such which could be better used in an text service. And the problem with digital modulation can't be all that different. The bits used for text are bits which can't be used for audio. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message Actually, I am a programmer and a pretty good one. I am in favor of anything that extends the life of AM radio or terrestrial radio in general. Is AM radio or terresterial radio really going to die? If so, how? It is, in business terms, in full matruation and in slow decline. It will not grwo in usership, and will only grow slightly ahead of inflation in revenues. At some point in time, the deliver system will be obsolete, but HD can extend that somewhat. What's the timeframe? When might the delivery system become obselete? We don't even know if we are going to be useing towers and transmitters 10 or 15 years from now. technology is moving radpidly enough to consider that the current bands and distruibution systems will become obsolete, while content may be moved on other carriers. However, we weredall told that the Internet and streaming would kill radio back in the late 90's, and that never happened. Nobody has any basis for making a prediction as the device that will move us from towers and transmitters probbly does not exist yet Sure. It's easy to imagine Pandora like programs autoloading individualized net programming into portable players and car radios in the near future. So, who needs IBOC? There is no system with adequate bandwidth to satisfy the needs of a quarter billion people at present. There is also no system that can do it free, like radio is today. The major impediment to satellite and other systems is the cost of delivery on an ongoing basis. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message I'm not clear on what I'm wrong about. Doesn't FM also lose most of their listeners, in absolute numbers (not percentage) during the night? What are those numbers? The difference is that FM actually increases share of available listeners at night, while AM decreases. All radio has different listening levels at differnt times. From 6 Am to 7 PM, it is around 22%, while at night it is more like 7%... keeping in mind that 7 PM is "daytime level" and 11 PM most people are asleep and it is around 3% of the universe. Whaterver the listening level, FM takes more of it at night. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... [snip] Would the new, improved nighttime IBOC AM stations be luring listeners from other distractions such as TV and the internet, or would they just be stealing audience from the non-IBOC AM stations and FM stations? I have no idea, as we don ot know where they go. But if the big AMs get decent daytime numbers, it is possible they will keep thse shares at night. [snip] You don't know where the listeners are going when they aren't listening to the radio? It sounds like the industry has no idea what it's competing against. Yet they seem to think IBOC is going to fix -- ahhhhhhh -- something. Syndicated radio research is almost totally about what people do while listening to the radio. The cost of tracking what else they do would be enormous. We are rolling out the portable people meter, which measures radio, TV, cable, satellite, storecasts, etc. all together with one device... and it will cost 66% more than the current costly research. A small broadcaster that pays $7 million a year will now pay nearly $12 million. Yet even this can not tell us when someone went to an iPod or whatever. Radio measurement is intended to help sell advertising, by quantifying listeners. There are studies that show leisured time activities, but not in a tracking of moment to moment usage. The cost would be more than radio makes. HD is highly researched. But no new product, without trial, can be well research as consumers can not visualize the unknown until it is totally tangible. HD still is not on anything but top market stations,a nd the HD 2 rollout is just starting. we know more progressive consumers think analog is stale and that anything digital is better. We also know that HD 2 doubles the programming choices, which is good. But radio is part creativity, and that can not be measured, any more than TV can measure which shows will be hits or record companies which songs (less than 5% of music releases make money) |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... Yes. The model is free for listener, paid by advertiser. There are nearly a billion analog radios out there, so there is no effective way to do pay radio, and the entire licensing system would have to change, something I doubt the FCC and the folks on the Hill would stand for. As I understand, the FCC already allows SCA channels to be subscription. I'm sure the FCC allowed some TV channels to go subscription about 25 years ago. But SCA was always designed for narrowcasting, such as stock quotes, telemetry, and such. HD has not been approved for a subscription model, and the receiver specs are open access. The government has already allowed pay broadcasting. Radio's main defense is being free and ad supported. The relative lack of success of satellite (many think it will not make money before another technology supersedes it) is certainly enough to keep us away from that. In fact, the current authorization is for simulcasting of the analog content. the only new content is on FM, with the second (and maybe third, fourth) channels... like HDTV, which is not pay either. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
FD,
DE - So Tell Us All - What Are : "Docket 80-90 Drop-Ins" All I have found so far is : The Docket 80-90 "Drop-Ins" (new FM stations) were, by definition, Local Stations that mostly served "Targeted" Community Needs. I.E. - Broadcasting in Languages 'other' than English to underserved Groups within a Community (City/Town/Region/State). FWIW - May also apply to underserved "Religious" Groups within a Community (City/Town/Region/State). Docket 80-90 was supposed to be a chance to open Radio Station Ownership to many new players; turned into a chance for existing Owners to buy-out-competition and Grow from 1 AM/1 FM to up to Eight Radio Stations in a Broadcast Area "Media Market". i want to know ~ RHF |
IBOC at night and the local/regiona AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message et... texting alone is not a salable benefit. I can't think of a way to make it so. It is, however, an added benefit, especially to HD digital audio. Seems like the benefits of texting would be the same regardless of the method of audio modulation. RDS is nowhere nearly as robust as HD for texting. It is pretty slow, and scrolls, rather than sending entire screens of data at once. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... he real issue is that most AMs in the US do not serve today's metro areas, and in more rural areas, most AMs were killed already by docket 80-90 drop ins. I might be familiar to the issue, but I don't know what "docket 80-90 drop ins" is. Late 90's, following the Bonita Springs case (station lost its license when it applied to upgrade, as it opened up, then, competitive bidding) the FCC added over a thousand new FMs and allowed Class A's to become B's or C's, and allowed routine major changes, including changes in city of license. End result... Traverse City, MI, market, with one time 2 AMs, now has about 15 stations city grading a county of 40,000. Lake City, FL. 3 AMs and two FMs grew to 7 FMs, and nobody makes money... the AMs are useless now, as the local ground coverage is so poor that the FMs took it all. In most of this type of market, there is nearly no AM listening, and the coverage of the local small market AMs is so vastly inferior to the many new local FMs as to also discourage listening. There are very few decent overage AMs in America. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... Since it only affects Am significantly, and does not affect AMs with good signals, we are talking about very few stations that are otherwise viable being affected. I take it that electromagnatic interference from home electronics isn't significantly reducing the radio audience even though they are listening to analog radios. This one has been proven. A look at ratings from the 70's and even 80's show listening ZIP codes to include significant listening in those in the 5 mv/m to 10 mv/m range. Today, in most large cities, the listening is almost entirely in the 10/mvm or better... in LA, it is mostly in the 15 mv/m, for example. The difference is not new stations, as most larger markets have had no new stations in that period, but the difficulty in listening... and listener expectations of better signals and less noise. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
Blueberry doggy,she is making them ooom ooom noises and slurpin out my
right ear again.That means she needs to take me out in the front yard,for whatever. cuhulin |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
She took a squirt.When she gets done with takin a dump,she kicks her
hind legs (and sometimes,her right front leg too) backward half a dozen times.I kick my legs right in concert with her too. cuhulin |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
I assume you have proof of better than CD sound quality. So you are
saying HD FM is PCM? If not, please retract your statement. I really have no problem with digital radio schemes, but can't tolerate anything that screws up the current analog system. David Eduardo wrote: wrote in message oups.com... David Eduardo wrote: "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... [snip] Most listening is NOT to AM anymore. Why not accept tha tthis may be an opportunity to make AM move viable for the future? [snip] So, how does the future of AM radio differ if nighttime IBOC is approved or not? The quality is vastly better and can attract listeners for a change. People tune for content first, then comes quality. I hear HD isn't as good as XM, which makes is not as good as standardm FM. The quality of HD on FM is higher than CDs. On AM, it is slightly less. On XM, it is like a 128 kbs MP3. You choose. To me, satellite sounds the worst of all. Improving the signal to noise ratio or bandwidth of Gene Scott or Brother Stair would not make me listen. It is about the fidelity, and openness on AM. It is close to current FM analog quality. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
wrote in message ups.com... I assume you have proof of better than CD sound quality. So you are saying HD FM is PCM? If not, please retract your statement. It is higher quality than analog FM, which is limited in badwith. It is capable of being "better than CD" quality if only one digital stream is used on FM. The problem is that there is no material, other than live, to broadcast that way, so most staitons are doing two HD FM channels. Also, keep in mind most CDs do not sound very good, as the original recording was significantly compressed and distorted before the pressing. I really have no problem with digital radio schemes, but can't tolerate anything that screws up the current analog system. FM HD does not affect the quality of the analog signal. It may, in some cases, cause the inability to hear ultra fringe stations from other markets. But there is essentially no listening to such stations in such areas, so there is no loss if nothing existed before. AM analog has to be backed off to a 5 kHz to 7 kHz upper limit, but since most analog radios don't go that far even, there is no loss and actually the more limited bandwidth sounds better on many of today's radios. It certainly sounds no worse. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
You want my little female doggy to give you proof?
cuhulin |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
BAD - Now Now Be Nice :o)
If - Clean Signals were an Individual Right : Then IBOC would be Out-Lawed for Impinging on the Rights of a Minority : Those Radio Listeners who like to Hear Long Distance (DX) Radio Signals [.] The Tyranny of IBOC Will NOT Stand Stop The Noisy Adjacent Channel Jamming Now ! The Tyranny of The Mass Media Shall Not Stand ! What Do We Want - No Noise ! - - - When Do We Want It - Now ! What Do We Want - No IBOC ! - - - When Do We Want It - Now ! What Do We Want - No QRM ! - - - When Do We Want It - Now ! oh well never mind ~ RHF |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
David Eduardo wrote: wrote in message ups.com... I assume you have proof of better than CD sound quality. So you are saying HD FM is PCM? If not, please retract your statement. It is higher quality than analog FM, which is limited in badwith. It is capable of being "better than CD" quality if only one digital stream is used on FM. The problem is that there is no material, other than live, to broadcast that way, so most staitons are doing two HD FM channels. Also, keep in mind most CDs do not sound very good, as the original recording was significantly compressed and distorted before the pressing. I really have no problem with digital radio schemes, but can't tolerate anything that screws up the current analog system. FM HD does not affect the quality of the analog signal. It may, in some cases, cause the inability to hear ultra fringe stations from other markets. But there is essentially no listening to such stations in such areas, so there is no loss if nothing existed before. AM analog has to be backed off to a 5 kHz to 7 kHz upper limit, but since most analog radios don't go that far even, there is no loss and actually the more limited bandwidth sounds better on many of today's radios. It certainly sounds no worse. I really can't see how any compressed audio will be better than PCM. Again, without hard facts on HD quality, I'll assume it isn't as good as PCM until shown otherwise. I can live with FM HD, but the reduced BW of the AM signal isn't a good idea. KCBS post HD sounds like KFI. [Hey, if I sounded as bad as KFI, I'd whisper my station ID too.] And the potential interference with out of town stations (i.e. where the hash of one IBOC channel sits on the analog signal of another station) is a real show stopper, especially if at night. You need to consider all those people who don't live in metropolitan areas, or even those driving on I-5. I can see HD leading to XM sales for those who do any rural travelling or live in the sticks. Since when does the FCC adopt a standard that hands money to one particular patent holder? |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
wrote in message ups.com... David Eduardo wrote: wrote in message I can live with FM HD, but the reduced BW of the AM signal isn't a good idea. KCBS post HD sounds like KFI. [Hey, if I sounded as bad as KFI, I'd whisper my station ID too.] KFI is the #3 radio station in LA, the worlds largest radio market in terms of revenue. It is the 4th highest billing radio station in the US, and, maybe, the world. YOur subjective judgement on the quality seems to be unobserved by the 1.2 million Angelinos that listen each week. And the potential interference with out of town stations (i.e. where the hash of one IBOC channel sits on the analog signal of another station) is a real show stopper, especially if at night. However, there is no evidence that there is any appreciable listening to out of town AMs at night. You need to consider all those people who don't live in metropolitan areas, or even those driving on I-5. I can see HD leading to XM sales for those who do any rural travelling or live in the sticks. In most every part o fthe US, there are multiple FMs, even in western ND or on the Navajo Nation in AZ, to name a few. Nobody listens to fady AM when they have FM at hand, or other alternatives like satellite. AM clears used to get lots of truckers at night. But daytime, they had to dial from station to station to get music or talk they liked. Today, nearly all truckers have satellite, which is a perfect application of that technology. Local statins do not care a bit about losing out of town truckers or out of town anyone, as they do not help sell local advertising. Since when does the FCC adopt a standard that hands money to one particular patent holder? They did with C quam. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Brenda Ann" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message .. . Take your IBOC shilling somewhere else. I don't see where most of us here want to hear about it. I am trying to explain why htings must change if there is to be any kind of free radio in the future... AM, FM, SW of any kind. If you want media all controlled by Rupert Murdeoch and a few major companies that are world-wide, then stick to your guns. You will be part of the death of free radio. WTF??? In case you hadn't noticed, a few major companies already DO control media.. (or close enough to all of it that it's difficult to find anyone else in any market that isn't either religious or public radio/TV or tiny indy papers with a circulation of 200) Oh my gosh. Somebody has done a real leftist whack job on you, sister. In the US, no company owns more than 8% of all staitons, and the first 10 companies onw less than 20% of them. There are, in fact, about 3,000 owners of the 13 thousand US radio staitons. Newspapers are one of the least consolidated industries in the US, with no company holding even 10% of US circulation. In fact, the biggies like Gannet or McClatchy have just a few percent of total daily circulation. One of the reasons is that newspapers are a bad investment, and are dying very slowly. There are hundreds and hundreds of different newspaper owners. There used to be 3 TV nets, with three owners. There are now over a hundred, with about 30 owners, including multiple minority networks like BET and Univision and Galavision. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
M... IBOC should be good for XM and Sirius Sales ~ RHF
|
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message I'm not clear on what I'm wrong about. Doesn't FM also lose most of their listeners, in absolute numbers (not percentage) during the night? What are those numbers? The difference is that FM actually increases share of available listeners at night, while AM decreases. All radio has different listening levels at differnt times. From 6 Am to 7 PM, it is around 22%, while at night it is more like 7%... keeping in mind that 7 PM is "daytime level" and 11 PM most people are asleep and it is around 3% of the universe. Whaterver the listening level, FM takes more of it at night. Yes, proprotionally, but I'm interested in how many listeners AM might keep if they went to IBOC at night. That's what I meant with "absolute numbers". A further speculative comparision would concern the total number of listeners with and without IBOC. And not the total for any given station, but the total for the radio industry. After all, if IBOC doesn't draw a larger number of dollars from the advertisers, it's expenses will be a loss. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... [snip] Would the new, improved nighttime IBOC AM stations be luring listeners from other distractions such as TV and the internet, or would they just be stealing audience from the non-IBOC AM stations and FM stations? I have no idea, as we don ot know where they go. But if the big AMs get decent daytime numbers, it is possible they will keep thse shares at night. [snip] You don't know where the listeners are going when they aren't listening to the radio? It sounds like the industry has no idea what it's competing against. Yet they seem to think IBOC is going to fix -- ahhhhhhh -- something. Syndicated radio research is almost totally about what people do while listening to the radio. The cost of tracking what else they do would be enormous. We are rolling out the portable people meter, which measures radio, TV, cable, satellite, storecasts, etc. all together with one device... and it will cost 66% more than the current costly research. A small broadcaster that pays $7 million a year will now pay nearly $12 million. Yet even this can not tell us when someone went to an iPod or whatever. Radio measurement is intended to help sell advertising, by quantifying listeners. There are studies that show leisured time activities, but not in a tracking of moment to moment usage. The cost would be more than radio makes. How precise would the tracking need to be? Isn't polling good enough? A good general sense of what people are doing should be much better than guesswork. Moment to moment tracking seems well into the area of diminishing returns. HD is highly researched. But no new product, without trial, can be well research as consumers can not visualize the unknown until it is totally tangible. HD still is not on anything but top market stations,a nd the HD 2 rollout is just starting. we know more progressive consumers think analog is stale and that anything digital is better. Yeah, back when I was more progressive, anything "space age" was better. Well, actually I was a sarcastic youngster, and I thought mundane products wrapped with pictures of stars and a rocket ship were pretty funny. The regressives didn't take long to catch up. We also know that HD 2 doubles the programming choices, which is good. But radio is part creativity, and that can not be measured, any more than TV can measure which shows will be hits or record companies which songs (less than 5% of music releases make money) The question seems to be -- what do people want? The mass market didn't support FM back when it was the new and improved radio. I think there's a good case to be made that increased interference is driving people away from AM, and a reasonable first estimate might suggest that AM IBOC numbers might more or less balance FM's, with similiar programming. So, maybe it improves AM fringe reception, and a few listeners switch from a FMer to an AMer. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... Since it only affects Am significantly, and does not affect AMs with good signals, we are talking about very few stations that are otherwise viable being affected. I take it that electromagnatic interference from home electronics isn't significantly reducing the radio audience even though they are listening to analog radios. This one has been proven. A look at ratings from the 70's and even 80's show listening ZIP codes to include significant listening in those in the 5 mv/m to 10 mv/m range. Today, in most large cities, the listening is almost entirely in the 10/mvm or better... in LA, it is mostly in the 15 mv/m, for example. The difference is not new stations, as most larger markets have had no new stations in that period, but the difficulty in listening... and listener expectations of better signals and less noise. And that's "very few stations that are otherwise viable being affected."? Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message Actually, I am a programmer and a pretty good one. I am in favor of anything that extends the life of AM radio or terrestrial radio in general. Is AM radio or terresterial radio really going to die? If so, how? It is, in business terms, in full matruation and in slow decline. It will not grwo in usership, and will only grow slightly ahead of inflation in revenues. At some point in time, the deliver system will be obsolete, but HD can extend that somewhat. What's the timeframe? When might the delivery system become obselete? We don't even know if we are going to be useing towers and transmitters 10 or 15 years from now. technology is moving radpidly enough to consider that the current bands and distruibution systems will become obsolete, while content may be moved on other carriers. The broadcasting establishment concievably could get out of radio someday, but I can't imagine any way radio itself could go away. If the price of the equipment goes down enough, there will always be some dreamer who will try to make a go of it. And the evangalists don't expect to turn a profit. However, we weredall told that the Internet and streaming would kill radio back in the late 90's, and that never happened. But there are reasons streaming audio didn't have many advangages over radio. "Net congestion" audio. Streaming wasn't portable or availble on a car radio. Podcasting fixes those and offeres it's own advantages. Nobody has any basis for making a prediction as the device that will move us from towers and transmitters probbly does not exist yet Sure. It's easy to imagine Pandora like programs autoloading individualized net programming into portable players and car radios in the near future. So, who needs IBOC? There is no system with adequate bandwidth to satisfy the needs of a quarter billion people at present. There is also no system that can do it free, like radio is today. The major impediment to satellite and other systems is the cost of delivery on an ongoing basis. At present, no. But I don't think it would take a technological breakthrough for somebody to do it right now. That's "somebody" not "everybody". And, if there's a limitation on internet bandwidth, we're nowhere near it. Bandwidth will continue doubling and doubling again into the forseeable future. Radio, however, is stuck. It might get a bit more bandwidth at the fringes, but it won't double. I also suspect IBOC is fixed in it's currrent incarnation. The newest IBOC AM might sound good even with it's limited bandwidth, but I can't see any reason why similiar bandwidth conserving plans can't be used across the internet. And the internet has the advantage of being able to continually update it's decoders. Although I sitll figure ibiquity has the pay radio card up it's sleeve. I wouldn't blame the ipod generation if they thought IBOC just another dinosaur media attempt to sell them something like a more sharply pixellated newspaper. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... he real issue is that most AMs in the US do not serve today's metro areas, and in more rural areas, most AMs were killed already by docket 80-90 drop ins. I might be familiar to the issue, but I don't know what "docket 80-90 drop ins" is. Late 90's, following the Bonita Springs case (station lost its license when it applied to upgrade, as it opened up, then, competitive bidding) the FCC added over a thousand new FMs and allowed Class A's to become B's or C's, and allowed routine major changes, including changes in city of license. End result... Traverse City, MI, market, with one time 2 AMs, now has about 15 stations city grading a county of 40,000. Lake City, FL. 3 AMs and two FMs grew to 7 FMs, and nobody makes money... the AMs are useless now, as the local ground coverage is so poor that the FMs took it all. In most of this type of market, there is nearly no AM listening, and the coverage of the local small market AMs is so vastly inferior to the many new local FMs as to also discourage listening. There are very few decent overage AMs in America. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... he real issue is that most AMs in the US do not serve today's metro areas, and in more rural areas, most AMs were killed already by docket 80-90 drop ins. I might be familiar to the issue, but I don't know what "docket 80-90 drop ins" is. Late 90's, following the Bonita Springs case (station lost its license when it applied to upgrade, as it opened up, then, competitive bidding) the FCC added over a thousand new FMs and allowed Class A's to become B's or C's, and allowed routine major changes, including changes in city of license. End result... Traverse City, MI, market, with one time 2 AMs, now has about 15 stations city grading a county of 40,000. Lake City, FL. 3 AMs and two FMs grew to 7 FMs, and nobody makes money... the AMs are useless now, as the local ground coverage is so poor that the FMs took it all. In most of this type of market, there is nearly no AM listening, and the coverage of the local small market AMs is so vastly inferior to the many new local FMs as to also discourage listening. There are very few decent overage AMs in America. Oh, my. A bunch of entrepreneurs started a bunch of radio stations which now hardly have any listeners and don't make a cent. They're just interfering with the radio establishment. Good thing nobody will be much bothered when the bigger station's IBOC generators light up. Sheesh. Frank Dresser |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"RHF" wrote in message ups.com... DE - "two HD FM channels" = FM Stereo ? -or- Two separate Channels of Programming ? The digital channel can be sliced into one, two or more channels, and receivers see these as HD 1, HD 2, etc for each station. There are several hundred of these HD 2 channels already launched. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Brenda Ann" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . com... Since when does the FCC adopt a standard that hands money to one particular patent holder? They did with C quam. Say what?? I remember the FCC "letting the market decide" on which AMS system would prevail. In Portland we had both C-Quam (KGW, et. al.) and Kahn-Hazeltine (KKSN). Don't know if anyone was using the Magnavox system, but it was more or less compatible with C-Quam anyway. The FCC chose the Magnavox, and Lenard Kahn sued, and then the FCC came out with a marketplace ruling 5 years later. To get to C quam, we went through a singe system ruling, a lawsuit by a disgrunteld designer who did not care if he killed AM,, and then a marketplace rulling. So they DID do a single system ruling, even if changed later. The result was C Quam, and one company getting all the (very limited) money for generators and royalties for recievers. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
David Frackelton Gleason aka Eduardo the fake Hispanic wrote: "RHF" wrote in message ups.com... DE - "two HD FM channels" = FM Stereo ? -or- Two separate Channels of Programming ? The digital channel can be sliced into one, two or more channels, and receivers see these as HD 1, HD 2, etc for each station. There are several hundred of these HD 2 channels already launched. And they all add up to one thing: QRM dxAce Michigan USA |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message I'm not clear on what I'm wrong about. Doesn't FM also lose most of their listeners, in absolute numbers (not percentage) during the night? What are those numbers? The difference is that FM actually increases share of available listeners at night, while AM decreases. All radio has different listening levels at differnt times. From 6 Am to 7 PM, it is around 22%, while at night it is more like 7%... keeping in mind that 7 PM is "daytime level" and 11 PM most people are asleep and it is around 3% of the universe. Whaterver the listening level, FM takes more of it at night. Yes, proprotionally, but I'm interested in how many listeners AM might keep if they went to IBOC at night. That's what I meant with "absolute numbers". There is no way of knowing. Thee is just a feeling that better quality AM audio will make people far more interested in using it and, even more important, make it more competitive with FM. A further speculative comparision would concern the total number of listeners with and without IBOC. And not the total for any given station, but the total for the radio industry. After all, if IBOC doesn't draw a larger number of dollars from the advertisers, it's expenses will be a loss. This is totally unpredictable. There is no research method known that will predict so many variable. However, as the programming improves, as receivers get cheaper and as people become aware of HD, there should be an improvement. Many companies that considered selling all their AMs are keeping them in the belief that HD will make a significant difference. We are talking about billion dollar decision in the case of several of the broadcasters that had been about to spin off all their AMs. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... The question seems to be -- what do people want? The mass market didn't support FM back when it was the new and improved radio. FM only "worked" when the FCC mandated a cessation of simulcating, in the late 60's. New formats popped up left and right, and people liked them and got radios. I think there's a good case to be made that increased interference is driving people away from AM, AM has been relatively stable for about 15 to 18 years. What has hapened is that the decent signals, which are very few in each market, have developed viable talk and spots offerings, and the remainder of staitons have found small niches to serve, predominantly religious or brokered in the larger markets... even a few music foormats like standards and gospel get some numbers and some sales on AM. The determination of AM listening is the local groundwave signal. Even going back 2 decades. scant listening to out of market signals was measured, even in rural areas. This is because FM was highly built out, reaching most every corner of the US with multiple signals. and a reasonable first estimate might suggest that AM IBOC numbers might more or less balance FM's, with similiar programming. So, maybe it improves AM fringe reception, and a few listeners switch from a FMer to an AMer. There is no fringe usage, anyway. (meaning that probably less than a tenth a percent of AM listening is to staitons not home to the local makret). Even truck drivers now have XM, so the skywave coverage is actually a negative (it comes back down and creates an interference zone with groundwave) rather than the positive it used to be. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message om... Since it only affects Am significantly, and does not affect AMs with good signals, we are talking about very few stations that are otherwise viable being affected. I take it that electromagnatic interference from home electronics isn't significantly reducing the radio audience even though they are listening to analog radios. This one has been proven. A look at ratings from the 70's and even 80's show listening ZIP codes to include significant listening in those in the 5 mv/m to 10 mv/m range. Today, in most large cities, the listening is almost entirely in the 10/mvm or better... in LA, it is mostly in the 15 mv/m, for example. The difference is not new stations, as most larger markets have had no new stations in that period, but the difficulty in listening... and listener expectations of better signals and less noise. And that's "very few stations that are otherwise viable being affected."? I don't understand the question. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... Radio, however, is stuck. It might get a bit more bandwidth at the fringes, but it won't double. FM HD doubles or even triples the program offerings in each market. I also suspect IBOC is fixed in it's currrent incarnation. The newest IBOC AM might sound good even with it's limited bandwidth, but I can't see any reason why similiar bandwidth conserving plans can't be used across the internet. And the internet has the advantage of being able to continually update it's decoders. So does HD... at the transmission end. Although I sitll figure ibiquity has the pay radio card up it's sleeve. I tis never mentioned, The license fees are ad-billing based, in fact. The contracts have no provisions for pay radio. |
IBOC at Night and the Local/Regional AMs
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... Oh, my. A bunch of entrepreneurs started a bunch of radio stations which now hardly have any listeners and don't make a cent. Actually, the owners of most 80-90 stations were already owners in other markets. All they did was file for as many of these things as they could. Or, in some cases, entrepreneurs filed, and then, when granted, sold to existing broadcasters. They're just interfering with the radio establishment. They were the radio establishment. In fact, the original case of Bonita Springs saw a single owner, Dick Friedman, lose the license to Beasley, who had the FCC limit of staitons. Good thing nobody will be much bothered when the bigger station's IBOC generators light up. Sheesh. There are already over a thousand HD stations on the air. There is more theoretical complaining here than among listeners. Interestingly, two years ago KFI reduced bandwidth to prepare for HD. Since they did that, their ratings have increased from bottom of the top 10 in LA to #2. As I said, this group complains far more than the listeners who simply will have better quality and more format options. |
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