David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
Well, of course it's a vicious circle. Most everything in Radio is.
You remember how tough it is to get hired until you have experience, but
you can't get experience until you get hired. Vicious circles in Radio
aren't news. But the fact remains.

That said, it's content that drives listening. If the content is of no
interest to the target, HD isn't going to help. What's not happening,
is there's no change in content to accompany HD implementation. WGN
didn't change content when HD was installed. And I'm sure that Ace will
point out that WBBM's content is the same as before HD was installed.
So, HD is only really benefitting those who are already using AM. And
those younger demos you wish to attract with audio quality, will be just
as unintersted in the content after HD, as the stations themselves are
in those who listen outside of the city grade contour.
But, until there are receivers out there... nobody is going to cange much
in a succesful (still) format. The changes will come in second tier
formats, I think... and in modifications of existing ones to broaden
them. WGN has to change, as it is in a revenue death spin, and is hurting
the Trib's stock price single handed.


So, WGN is waiting for receivers to fall into listeners' hands before
lowering their demo target?

I don't think they know how to change the demos on that one. This may be an
example of the casualties of very old leaning AMs. They will have to very
much remake the station for it to work for anyone.

Once sampled, if the audio quality is attractive but the content hasn't
changed, there will likely not be a resampling. Leaving HD to benefit
those who already listen and enjoy.

I think once there are enough receivers, stations with very old profiles
will make changes, even at the risk of losing the big 12+ numbers. WGN
coiuld lose 60% of its audience, and yet not be any less salable today. They
will probably survey the under 55 listeners to see what they like and focus
there, killing the 55+ content.

Master AM programmer Gabe Hobbs, while at WFLA, instructed the hosts to
address the elderly as, "are you one of those blue haired old ladies
from..." or "sir, would you put your dentures in so we can understand you?"
This essentially blew away the oldedr crowd, and was perceived as amusing by
the younger listeners who then felt the station was "theirs." WGN will
eventually have to do that.



WLS did something like that under Michael Packer. A memo was leaked
to Bob Feder of the Sun-Times who hammered WLS for weeks about the
displacement of the older listeners in favor of younger demos. The
stink hit other media, and eventually, the strategy had to be rescinded.
If Roe Conn called someone a blue hair today, there would be armed
riots at 190 North. If you really want to blow off 55+, it's going to
have to be done gracefully. Guys like Feder really don't get it. And are
on a f*cking mission when they get their back up about things like this.





But not providing anything more attractive than audio quality for those
who generally do not. If audio quality were the only selling point to
KEZK, it would still be Schulke. And WRTH would have never been 'Beautiful
Music.' It's the content that attracted and held listeners to each.
Granted this is in an era when FM still had novelty listening, but the
point is, when the audience began to shift from AM to FM, it was the
content on the stations of either band that changed to create viable
audiences...audio quality was only a factor where content requiring audio
quality was concerned. Music went to FM, where off main music formats and
talk took over AM.




{content stipulated. Disagree, but stipulated}



Then, you're making my point for me. AM-HD is going to benefit only
existing listeners. IN the meantime, trashing the band audibly as any
potential listeners sample content only underscored that FM is a better
option for them. Younger, or older.

No, in our case, we are aiming at 35-44, and waiting for HD to start.
None of the stations I have studied gets any real listening outside of
its 5 mv/m signal area (and what there is is suspect... probably done in
the car, etc) and most is inside the 10 mv/m. In LA, nearly all our
listening is inside the 15 mv/m due to the high noise levels in this
market.
When I say that HD puts content off limits to potential listeners, I'm
not referring to those listeners outside of a market. I'm talking about
listeners inside the market who are not graced with a city grade signal.
WLS, the classic example here, does not put 15mv/m into Lake County. But
listenership is, or at least was, quite high in Lake County. But with IBOC
rash now sizzling up and down the dial, WLS has been very difficult to
capture cleanly. Or on some days, listen to at all. We're not talking
about DXing...we're talking about local listening. That's been put off
limits by IBOC rash, and yet, solutions have not been widely available.

This is a typical problem. The CD started slow. The hardware was costly, so
not many CDs put out. Slowly, the prices went down and the software
increased. But no manufacturer is going to produce until most of America has
HD stations.


The difference being that the CD was an optional outlet to content,
and that the same desirable content was still available through previous
technology. If you didn't have a CD player, you didn't get LP's full of
digital hash. That's my point, he With the current arrangement, I
can't get the content of my choice--LOCAL content, not out of market
content--because it's covered up with digital rash from offending
stations testing HD. And the digital solution is not widely available
for at least another month and a half. This after a year's worth of
escalating HD interference.

Leaving me, and much of Lake County to move to alternatives. That
seems like it's pretty shortsighted thinking. Unless the goal is to blow
off existing listeners before creating new radio content under HD. Why
is it that the industry is so loathe to address that. So far, you've not
addressed that issue, yourself, here. Which raises the spectre that I,
and my neighbors, are just to be casualties of new technology. Worth
little. Valued less.

The fact that no one wants to address this indicates some mindsets
that are exactly the reason corporations, and media corporations
especially, have become so reviled by street level citizens. We don't
matter. Our complaints, legitimate complaints now, are not only not
addressed, but effectively stonewalled by the unwillingness to actually
acknowledge that a problem exists.

I have a colleague, who, when we all get together to speak of
technical issues in our businesses, has only one answer when the subject
of computers come up: get a Mac.

It doesn't matter what the issue. The response is always the same:
get a Mac.

One particular gathering, the subject of a locked hard drive came up.
One colleague's year's work was out of reach. And we were all discussing
options for retrieving the data. In walks this clown and all he says is
"Get a Mac."

Well the one person who was trying to retrieve his work came over the
table at this Bozo, and we were all pretty much in agreement... here was
someone who had all the answers, but didn't bother to listen to the
questions, and in a very high handed and dismissive tone, offered advice
that failed to address the problem in an ongoing pattern.

This is what's driving so many of this newsgroup to abuse in these
discussions....the problems...the REAL problems associated with the
implementation of AM-HD aren't being addressed, ie, interference with
local stations. And questions about why we don't matter go largely
unaddressed....in favor of data about contours vs ratings, and
monetizable listeners.

So, let me put it this way....WLS is strong in Lake County. Even
though the signal is not 15mv/m. Lake County listenership is high, and
WLS is a strong radio station, here. And yet, here, HD rash has been
encroaching on WLS, to the degree that it's now sometimes virtually
impossible to hear, much less enjoy....and this HD rash is coming from
another radio station. You telling me this is acceptable? Even when
WLS, itself is NOT transmitting HD and so no digital solution is
available? (the C-Quam pilot is still lit and the station is still in
stereo, even as of 00:30 UTC today.

Why is no one addressing this? This is not DX. This is not skywave.
It's LOCAL. And it's local interference.

With all due respect, David...why can't you address THIS?

And circumstances like it across the nation. Because they DO exist.

We get that it's going to become a standard. We get that it uses
'unused interchannel bandwidth.' But there IS interference. And it IS
LOCAL interference. Without an HD solution. It's interference that we
can't avoid, and that we can't resolve. It's LP's full of digital noise
and no CD players within miles.

Is it just 'tough ****?' Is that why you don't address it?

Because, if so, you're going to find that the mentality that allows
the mindset that stonewall's real, valid, local listener's concerns is a
mindset that will bring to market more contempt than embrace. And THAT,
more than any other single factor, is what separates success from
struggle and eventually, failure.

And THAT is what has the historically even tempered members (Brenda
Ann is a good example) of at least this newsgroup spitting and swearing
at you like they'd just gotten a Language Development Grant from the Navy.

And we've shared some light moments, on USENet in the past, but
you're trying even MY patience. And I'm not your adversary.







Doing nothing may not be an alternative, but it may be better than doing
something that produces more immediate harm than potential long term good.

All of us are gambling. But the fact that no major owner is selling AM shows
a lot of faith in HD.
There has to be a better way. But it would take FCC reversing
themselves. And we all know how likely that would be.

And that would take too long.


Especially now that the inteference is here, it's real, and it's been
publicly encountered.

D Peter Maus wrote:

David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
Well, of course it's a vicious circle. Most everything in Radio is.
You remember how tough it is to get hired until you have experience, but
you can't get experience until you get hired. Vicious circles in Radio
aren't news. But the fact remains.

That said, it's content that drives listening. If the content is of no
interest to the target, HD isn't going to help. What's not happening,
is there's no change in content to accompany HD implementation. WGN
didn't change content when HD was installed. And I'm sure that Ace will
point out that WBBM's content is the same as before HD was installed.
So, HD is only really benefitting those who are already using AM. And
those younger demos you wish to attract with audio quality, will be just
as unintersted in the content after HD, as the stations themselves are
in those who listen outside of the city grade contour.
But, until there are receivers out there... nobody is going to cange much
in a succesful (still) format. The changes will come in second tier
formats, I think... and in modifications of existing ones to broaden
them. WGN has to change, as it is in a revenue death spin, and is hurting
the Trib's stock price single handed.


So, WGN is waiting for receivers to fall into listeners' hands before
lowering their demo target?

I don't think they know how to change the demos on that one. This may be an
example of the casualties of very old leaning AMs. They will have to very
much remake the station for it to work for anyone.

Once sampled, if the audio quality is attractive but the content hasn't
changed, there will likely not be a resampling. Leaving HD to benefit
those who already listen and enjoy.

I think once there are enough receivers, stations with very old profiles
will make changes, even at the risk of losing the big 12+ numbers. WGN
coiuld lose 60% of its audience, and yet not be any less salable today. They
will probably survey the under 55 listeners to see what they like and focus
there, killing the 55+ content.

Master AM programmer Gabe Hobbs, while at WFLA, instructed the hosts to
address the elderly as, "are you one of those blue haired old ladies
from..." or "sir, would you put your dentures in so we can understand you?"
This essentially blew away the oldedr crowd, and was perceived as amusing by
the younger listeners who then felt the station was "theirs." WGN will
eventually have to do that.


WLS did something like that under Michael Packer. A memo was leaked
to Bob Feder of the Sun-Times who hammered WLS for weeks about the
displacement of the older listeners in favor of younger demos. The
stink hit other media, and eventually, the strategy had to be rescinded.
If Roe Conn called someone a blue hair today, there would be armed
riots at 190 North. If you really want to blow off 55+, it's going to
have to be done gracefully. Guys like Feder really don't get it. And are
on a f*cking mission when they get their back up about things like this.

But not providing anything more attractive than audio quality for those
who generally do not. If audio quality were the only selling point to
KEZK, it would still be Schulke. And WRTH would have never been 'Beautiful
Music.' It's the content that attracted and held listeners to each.
Granted this is in an era when FM still had novelty listening, but the
point is, when the audience began to shift from AM to FM, it was the
content on the stations of either band that changed to create viable
audiences...audio quality was only a factor where content requiring audio
quality was concerned. Music went to FM, where off main music formats and
talk took over AM.

{content stipulated. Disagree, but stipulated}

Then, you're making my point for me. AM-HD is going to benefit only
existing listeners. IN the meantime, trashing the band audibly as any
potential listeners sample content only underscored that FM is a better
option for them. Younger, or older.

No, in our case, we are aiming at 35-44, and waiting for HD to start.
None of the stations I have studied gets any real listening outside of
its 5 mv/m signal area (and what there is is suspect... probably done in
the car, etc) and most is inside the 10 mv/m. In LA, nearly all our
listening is inside the 15 mv/m due to the high noise levels in this
market.
When I say that HD puts content off limits to potential listeners, I'm
not referring to those listeners outside of a market. I'm talking about
listeners inside the market who are not graced with a city grade signal.
WLS, the classic example here, does not put 15mv/m into Lake County. But
listenership is, or at least was, quite high in Lake County. But with IBOC
rash now sizzling up and down the dial, WLS has been very difficult to
capture cleanly. Or on some days, listen to at all. We're not talking
about DXing...we're talking about local listening. That's been put off
limits by IBOC rash, and yet, solutions have not been widely available.

This is a typical problem. The CD started slow. The hardware was costly, so
not many CDs put out. Slowly, the prices went down and the software
increased. But no manufacturer is going to produce until most of America has
HD stations.


The difference being that the CD was an optional outlet to content,
and that the same desirable content was still available through previous
technology. If you didn't have a CD player, you didn't get LP's full of
digital hash. That's my point, he With the current arrangement, I
can't get the content of my choice--LOCAL content, not out of market
content--because it's covered up with digital rash from offending
stations testing HD. And the digital solution is not widely available
for at least another month and a half. This after a year's worth of
escalating HD interference.

Leaving me, and much of Lake County to move to alternatives. That
seems like it's pretty shortsighted thinking. Unless the goal is to blow
off existing listeners before creating new radio content under HD. Why
is it that the industry is so loathe to address that. So far, you've not
addressed that issue, yourself, here. Which raises the spectre that I,
and my neighbors, are just to be casualties of new technology. Worth
little. Valued less.

The fact that no one wants to address this indicates some mindsets
that are exactly the reason corporations, and media corporations
especially, have become so reviled by street level citizens. We don't
matter. Our complaints, legitimate complaints now, are not only not
addressed, but effectively stonewalled by the unwillingness to actually
acknowledge that a problem exists.

I have a colleague, who, when we all get together to speak of
technical issues in our businesses, has only one answer when the subject
of computers come up: get a Mac.

It doesn't matter what the issue. The response is always the same:
get a Mac.

One particular gathering, the subject of a locked hard drive came up.
One colleague's year's work was out of reach. And we were all discussing
options for retrieving the data. In walks this clown and all he says is
"Get a Mac."

Well the one person who was trying to retrieve his work came over the
table at this Bozo, and we were all pretty much in agreement... here was
someone who had all the answers, but didn't bother to listen to the
questions, and in a very high handed and dismissive tone, offered advice
that failed to address the problem in an ongoing pattern.

This is what's driving so many of this newsgroup to abuse in these
discussions....the problems...the REAL problems associated with the
implementation of AM-HD aren't being addressed, ie, interference with
local stations. And questions about why we don't matter go largely
unaddressed....in favor of data about contours vs ratings, and
monetizable listeners.

So, let me put it this way....WLS is strong in Lake County. Even
though the signal is not 15mv/m. Lake County listenership is high, and
WLS is a strong radio station, here. And yet, here, HD rash has been
encroaching on WLS, to the degree that it's now sometimes virtually
impossible to hear, much less enjoy....and this HD rash is coming from
another radio station. You telling me this is acceptable? Even when
WLS, itself is NOT transmitting HD and so no digital solution is
available? (the C-Quam pilot is still lit and the station is still in
stereo, even as of 00:30 UTC today.

Why is no one addressing this? This is not DX. This is not skywave.
It's LOCAL. And it's local interference.

With all due respect, David...why can't you address THIS?

Because he's a shill, plain and simple. You know this, I know this.

He's been given something to sell, and by god he's gonna sell it to you, me, and
everyone else, whether we like it or not.

He's going to be a shill until the day he's put under.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

"dxAce" wrote in message
...

Because he's a shill, plain and simple. You know this, I know this.

No, because I do not know the specifics on the interference to WLS. When
Peter gives me them, I will have our Chicago DoE check, and meybe something
interesting will come from this.

He's been given something to sell, and by god he's gonna sell it to you,
me, and
everyone else, whether we like it or not.

I have not been given anything to sell. However, I believe AM is dead unless
HD works.

David Frackelton Gleason, posing as 'Eduardo' since c.2000 and impatiently
waiting for AM radio's death notice wrote:

"dxAce" wrote in message
...

Because he's a shill, plain and simple. You know this, I know this.

No, because I do not know the specifics on the interference to WLS. When
Peter gives me them, I will have our Chicago DoE check, and meybe something
interesting will come from this.

He's been given something to sell, and by god he's gonna sell it to you,
me, and
everyone else, whether we like it or not.

I have not been given anything to sell. However, I believe AM is dead unless
HD works.

Stuff your panty hose in it, shill.

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...

The difference being that the CD was an optional outlet to content, and
that the same desirable content was still available through previous
technology. If you didn't have a CD player, you didn't get LP's full of
digital hash. That's my point, he With the current arrangement, I
can't get the content of my choice--LOCAL content, not out of market
content--because it's covered up with digital rash from offending stations
testing HD. And the digital solution is not widely available for at least
another month and a half. This after a year's worth of escalating HD
interference.

We have seen nothing like this. We know where our diary mentions come from
and the signal is inot impaired in areas where currently we have listeners.
In fact, listening is up (50% increase in very little is still very little,
though) since HD has been active.

Leaving me, and much of Lake County to move to alternatives. That seems
like it's pretty shortsighted thinking. Unless the goal is to blow off
existing listeners before creating new radio content under HD. Why is it
that the industry is so loathe to address that. So far, you've not
addressed that issue, yourself, here. Which raises the spectre that I, and
my neighbors, are just to be casualties of new technology. Worth little.
Valued less.

What are the specifics? Which stations are interfered with inside the metro.

The fact that no one wants to address this indicates some mindsets that
are exactly the reason corporations, and media corporations especially,
have become so reviled by street level citizens. We don't matter. Our
complaints, legitimate complaints now, are not only not addressed, but
effectively stonewalled by the unwillingness to actually acknowledge that
a problem exists.

When we make any change, we spend a lot of time on the street listening.
Other companies should do the same.

This is what's driving so many of this newsgroup to abuse in these
discussions....the problems...the REAL problems associated with the
implementation of AM-HD aren't being addressed, ie, interference with
local stations. And questions about why we don't matter go largely
unaddressed....in favor of data about contours vs ratings, and monetizable
listeners.

The only think we are interested in today is listening inside our home
metro. This comes, as I have metioned in posts to Mr. Dresser, as a direct
consequence of the FCC policies for decades of encouraging local service by
forcing local content, keeping power levels very low as national pollicy,
and by not recognizing that most AMs have seen the market outgrow the
signal.

So, let me put it this way....WLS is strong in Lake County. Even though
the signal is not 15mv/m. Lake County listenership is high, and WLS is a
strong radio station, here. And yet, here, HD rash has been encroaching on
WLS, to the degree that it's now sometimes virtually impossible to hear,
much less enjoy....and this HD rash is coming from another radio station.
You telling me this is acceptable? Even when WLS, itself is NOT
transmitting HD and so no digital solution is available? (the C-Quam pilot
is still lit and the station is still in stereo, even as of 00:30 UTC
today.

What station? I'm curious about this...

Why is no one addressing this? This is not DX. This is not skywave.
It's LOCAL. And it's local interference.

With all due respect, David...why can't you address THIS?

If you tell me the station, I can ask our local engineer, who is very strong
on RF issues.
from the Navy.

And we've shared some light moments, on USENet in the past, but you're
trying even MY patience. And I'm not your adversary.

This is not an easy discussion, and the first step is accepting that AM will
not exist in 10 years or less if something is not done. There is no other
solution than HD. Either it works, or the band dies. Nobody is coming into
the party, and the ones already there are undesirable to advertisers.

David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message


{content stipulated.}



So, let me put it this way....WLS is strong in Lake County. Even though
the signal is not 15mv/m. Lake County listenership is high, and WLS is a
strong radio station, here. And yet, here, HD rash has been encroaching on
WLS, to the degree that it's now sometimes virtually impossible to hear,
much less enjoy....and this HD rash is coming from another radio station.
You telling me this is acceptable? Even when WLS, itself is NOT
transmitting HD and so no digital solution is available? (the C-Quam pilot
is still lit and the station is still in stereo, even as of 00:30 UTC
today.

What station? I'm curious about this...


I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I can send you audio files of the AM band from my location, if
you'd like.






This is not an easy discussion, and the first step is accepting that AM will
not exist in 10 years or less if something is not done. There is no other
solution than HD. Either it works, or the band dies. Nobody is coming into
the party, and the ones already there are undesirable to advertisers.



If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's
survival, is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30
years: shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.


Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM stations
to the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM, WGN,
WSCR, WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there are
any allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk was
tried here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's
been here.) Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity,
Levin, or even Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?


More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're looking at
a 5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance in
less than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?


David, I certainly see how you've arrived at your conclusions, Radio
being what it has always been and all...but what you're describing is a
roll of the dice with far greater chance of crapping out than staying in
the game. Almost entirely by serving the needs of advertisers and
broadcasters over the needs of listeners who ultimately carry the water.

And if Radio is really more about Radio than it is about the
audience, is it any wonder why listenership and revenues are eroding in
favor of alternative outlets? Non traditional outlets permitting mass
customization vs traditional radio where answers to complaints are met
with prepackaged corporate non responses, and listeners can be
disenfranchised by a statistician in a locked room.

Can you see now why I've turned down offers to return?

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message


{content stipulated.}



So, let me put it this way....WLS is strong in Lake County.
Even though
the signal is not 15mv/m. Lake County listenership is high, and
WLS is a
strong radio station, here. And yet, here, HD rash has been
encroaching on
WLS, to the degree that it's now sometimes virtually impossible
to hear,
much less enjoy....and this HD rash is coming from another radio
station.
You telling me this is acceptable? Even when WLS, itself is NOT
transmitting HD and so no digital solution is available? (the
C-Quam pilot
is still lit and the station is still in stereo, even as of 00:30
UTC
today.

What station? I'm curious about this...


I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm
not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I can send you audio files of the AM band from my location, if
you'd like.






This is not an easy discussion, and the first step is accepting
that AM will
not exist in 10 years or less if something is not done. There is
no other
solution than HD. Either it works, or the band dies. Nobody is
coming into
the party, and the ones already there are undesirable to
advertisers.



If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's
survival, is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30
years: shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.


Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's
last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in
dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM
stations
to the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM,
WGN,
WSCR, WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there
are
any allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk
was
tried here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's
been here.) Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity,
Levin, or even Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

Cincinnati is in the same boat. Between Dayton,
Columbus, Lexington, Louisville, Indy and us,
there's no bandwidth to move major AM stations
(the big ones locally: 550, 700, 1360, and 1530).
The only way to do that is to remove the format
on some other stations, and someone's going to
lose out. Which is it? Urban contemporary?
Mix? Album oriented rock? Classic rock?

If Clear Channel wants to move any of their
four AM stations, they'll have to give up one
of those formats to do it. Or buy more stations,
but those stations are owned (for the most part)
by other mega conglomerates who aren't selling.

More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're
looking at
a 5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance
in
less than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?


David, I certainly see how you've arrived at your conclusions,
Radio
being what it has always been and all...but what you're describing
is a
roll of the dice with far greater chance of crapping out than
staying in
the game. Almost entirely by serving the needs of advertisers and
broadcasters over the needs of listeners who ultimately carry the
water.

Peter, you know, this might be a good thing in the
end. If AM ceases to be viable from a corporate
perspective, some local group will come along and
buy the stations and put on their own thing. In
a bizarre sort of way, it might lead to a renaissance
in the AM format; the big boys leave, and someone
will fill in the blank spaces.

There may be fewer listeners, but the radio will be
oriented more toward what those listeners want,
rather than packaged demographics.

And if Radio is really more about Radio than it is about the
audience, is it any wonder why listenership and revenues are eroding
in
favor of alternative outlets? Non traditional outlets permitting
mass
customization vs traditional radio where answers to complaints are
met
with prepackaged corporate non responses, and listeners can be
disenfranchised by a statistician in a locked room.

Can you see now why I've turned down offers to return?

You're a wise man, Peter, if you ask me.

--Mike L.

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:

What station? I'm curious about this...

I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I am going to contact him today. He is in the middle of an AM site move, so
he has all the necesary gear out and can probably do a spot check.

If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's survival,
is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30 years:
shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.

This is about the first case of such interference with a "big" station I
have heard of. In some cases, there are cases of stations losing fringe
coverage, such as Salem's decision to turn off HD on WIND to protect the
very rural coverage of 540 outside Milwaukee. But, for most broadcasters,
there has been a reasoned decision to sacrifice some remote coverage for the
improved quality of HD in the metros.

It may be this is akin to making the decision to ride a flat on the rim to
get out of dangerous traffic... you save your life, but ruin the rim. It is
a trade off.


Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM stations to
the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM, WGN, WSCR,
WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there are any
allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk was tried
here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's been here.)
Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity, Levin, or even
Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast KTAR
on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did niche
formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an FM
that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less and
less between swaps.

There are some markets where AM just willnot survive, as there are literally
no full coverage stations. In most rural areas the billing is now on FM, and
the AMs are also dieing. A good example is Moberly, MO. The Class IV KWIX
was famous as a local station that, in the 70's, billed over $1 million.
Today, it barely does $100 thousand while the sister FM bills nearly $2
million. KWIX was so famous that they even had a school where they trained
sales management of smaller market stations. But the AM, in obviously
competent hands, has become a rider on the FM bandwagon. It is a 1 kw
operation on 1340, while the FM is a full C. Nobody in that part of Missouri
is being deprived of AM service since I find about 8 FMs now put a 60 dbu
over Moberly, so the local service has imporved.


More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're looking at a
5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance in less
than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?

I don't think it is about rebuilding. Once HD has adequater receivers, there
will be new formats. Some, like WGN, made the mistake of ageing with the
listener and may be dead for all time.

David, I certainly see how you've arrived at your conclusions, Radio
being what it has always been and all...but what you're describing is a
roll of the dice with far greater chance of crapping out than staying in
the game. Almost entirely by serving the needs of advertisers and
broadcasters over the needs of listeners who ultimately carry the water.

The reason AM is losing viability is that it only attracts 55+ listeners.
Advertisers do not buy this crowd, so eventually, stations start losing
money. All free radio formats work only if there is advertiser support. This
is why teen lsitening is lower than 18-54. We don't program to teens, as
there is no revenue.

And if Radio is really more about Radio than it is about the audience,
is it any wonder why listenership and revenues are eroding in favor of
alternative outlets?

Revenue is not eroding. It is growing slowly, but is, in the last few years,
over 8% of all ad revenue for the first time since post-freeze days.

Non traditional outlets permitting mass customization vs traditional radio
where answers to complaints are met with prepackaged corporate non
responses, and listeners can be disenfranchised by a statistician in a
locked room.

There are a percentage of people to whom mass appeal offerings are not
appealing, starting with teens and over 55. Radio can not afford to go after
these groups, so they must find alternatives.

David Frackelton Gleason, prancing as 'Eduardo' and paid shill for Univision
Radio/iBiquity wrote:

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:

What station? I'm curious about this...

I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I am going to contact him today. He is in the middle of an AM site move, so
he has all the necesary gear out and can probably do a spot check.

If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's survival,
is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30 years:
shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.

This is about the first case of such interference with a "big" station I
have heard of. In some cases, there are cases of stations losing fringe
coverage, such as Salem's decision to turn off HD on WIND to protect the
very rural coverage of 540 outside Milwaukee. But, for most broadcasters,
there has been a reasoned decision to sacrifice some remote coverage for the
improved quality of HD in the metros.

It may be this is akin to making the decision to ride a flat on the rim to
get out of dangerous traffic... you save your life, but ruin the rim. It is
a trade off.


Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM stations to
the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM, WGN, WSCR,
WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there are any
allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk was tried
here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's been here.)
Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity, Levin, or even
Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast KTAR
on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did niche
formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an FM
that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less and
less between swaps.

There are some markets where AM just willnot survive, as there are literally
no full coverage stations. In most rural areas the billing is now on FM, and
the AMs are also dieing. A good example is Moberly, MO. The Class IV KWIX
was famous as a local station that, in the 70's, billed over $1 million.
Today, it barely does $100 thousand while the sister FM bills nearly $2
million. KWIX was so famous that they even had a school where they trained
sales management of smaller market stations. But the AM, in obviously
competent hands, has become a rider on the FM bandwagon. It is a 1 kw
operation on 1340, while the FM is a full C. Nobody in that part of Missouri
is being deprived of AM service since I find about 8 FMs now put a 60 dbu
over Moberly, so the local service has imporved.


More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're looking at a
5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance in less
than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?

I don't think it is about rebuilding. Once HD has adequater receivers, there
will be new formats. Some, like WGN, made the mistake of ageing with the
listener and may be dead for all time.

David, I certainly see how you've arrived at your conclusions, Radio
being what it has always been and all...but what you're describing is a
roll of the dice with far greater chance of crapping out than staying in
the game. Almost entirely by serving the needs of advertisers and
broadcasters over the needs of listeners who ultimately carry the water.

The reason AM is losing viability is that it only attracts 55+ listeners.
Advertisers do not buy this crowd, so eventually, stations start losing
money. All free radio formats work only if there is advertiser support. This
is why teen lsitening is lower than 18-54. We don't program to teens, as
there is no revenue.

And if Radio is really more about Radio than it is about the audience,
is it any wonder why listenership and revenues are eroding in favor of
alternative outlets?

Revenue is not eroding. It is growing slowly, but is, in the last few years,
over 8% of all ad revenue for the first time since post-freeze days.

Non traditional outlets permitting mass customization vs traditional radio
where answers to complaints are met with prepackaged corporate non
responses, and listeners can be disenfranchised by a statistician in a
locked room.

There are a percentage of people to whom mass appeal offerings are not
appealing, starting with teens and over 55. Radio can not afford to go after
these groups, so they must find alternatives.

Your alternative might be hauling your prancing ass outta here and shilling
elsewhere.

David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:

What station? I'm curious about this...

I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I am going to contact him today. He is in the middle of an AM site move, so
he has all the necesary gear out and can probably do a spot check.



Thank you. Today's actually been a pretty good day. I haven't seen
this much signal on 890 here in a couple of weeks, so what noise there
is less than it was last week, when I could barely make out the station.



If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's survival,
is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30 years:
shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.

This is about the first case of such interference with a "big" station I
have heard of. In some cases, there are cases of stations losing fringe
coverage, such as Salem's decision to turn off HD on WIND to protect the
very rural coverage of 540 outside Milwaukee. But, for most broadcasters,
there has been a reasoned decision to sacrifice some remote coverage for the
improved quality of HD in the metros.

It may be this is akin to making the decision to ride a flat on the rim to
get out of dangerous traffic... you save your life, but ruin the rim. It is
a trade off.


I can see where the decision is made. But what I can't see is how, so
piecemeal this implementation is being done. A strategy to broadcasters,
perhaps, but chaos to the listeners, who do, after all account for those
who pay the freight.



Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM stations to
the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM, WGN, WSCR,
WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there are any
allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk was tried
here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's been here.)
Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity, Levin, or even
Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast KTAR
on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did niche
formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an FM
that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less and
less between swaps.



Something like that here, would be interesting to watch, give that
talk on FM, when tried, was not successful.




There are some markets where AM just willnot survive, as there are literally
no full coverage stations. In most rural areas the billing is now on FM, and
the AMs are also dieing. A good example is Moberly, MO. The Class IV KWIX
was famous as a local station that, in the 70's, billed over $1 million.
Today, it barely does $100 thousand while the sister FM bills nearly $2
million. KWIX was so famous that they even had a school where they trained
sales management of smaller market stations. But the AM, in obviously
competent hands, has become a rider on the FM bandwagon. It is a 1 kw
operation on 1340, while the FM is a full C. Nobody in that part of Missouri
is being deprived of AM service since I find about 8 FMs now put a 60 dbu
over Moberly, so the local service has imporved.


I remember KWIX. Listened to it many times while travelling. KWIX
was one of the reasons why I was so excited to get the offer from KOEL,
another monster in the middle of a cornfield in Iowa, but that convered
50 counties in 3 states. I had more listeners on KOEL at night than some
cities had population.

They're a shade of their former selves, now.




More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're looking at a
5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance in less
than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?

I don't think it is about rebuilding. Once HD has adequater receivers, there
will be new formats. Some, like WGN, made the mistake of ageing with the
listener and may be dead for all time.

They're trying. Todd Manley is the imaging director there, and he's
done a lot to hip the place up. Callers are sounding younger, too.
Whether there's hope...no telling. That would be one I'd be very sorry
to see go.