Ed Price wrote:

We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items. A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability is
often not a concern.

If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.

Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size. Some of the
reductions are there to make it possible to fit more test equipment in a
given space, and some are there because of necessities of the new
technology (eg. microwave speeds and low power consumption are better
done with tiny sized components.)


I never saw "multi-six-foot-rack analyzers"; the oldest & biggest I can
recall were Singer FIM analyzers, which were about 24" wide by 30" tall and
deep, and took four guys to move them (and the plug-in RF heads were a
one-man lift!). OTOH, everything inside was reachable and easily repairable.

Was your life, as a technician that is, made better or worse when that
same 4 man lift SA was reduced to one that you could carry yourself with
one hand, while carrying your 1G scope with the other?

How about performance? Did it help you to have the bandwidth limit of
your old 4 man lift SA rise from 1GHz to 300GHz? How about your 30MHz
scope that is now 1GHz? Did you notice that the prices went DOWN?

How about the heat generation? Have you ever worked in a lab that had
no effective air conditioning, and also had a herd of Tek 500 series
scopes whirring away?.. in the middle of the summer? I have, and I am
quite happy not to do it anymore. We saw temperatures as high as 120F
at times. No windows, one door, lots of fans. Turn off the equipment,
and the AC did quite fine.

And finally, how about the space savings? Does it help you or hurt you
to recapture that floor space the old SA, and scope, and signal
generator used?

Tiny little custom component ridden hard to service test equipment made
it possible to move away from that kind of scene.


If that 100 MHz scope can be built to have a reasonable cost to lifetime
ratio, then it could be considered a consumer item, and a non-repairable
investment. But to me, if I have to pay $10k or more for a piece of test
equipment, it had better last quite a few years and allow me to do
re-calibration and even moderately severe repair.

All of the $10K+ stuff I have seen from HP or Tek would easily meet your
needs. Calibration? You cannot be serious. Most of this stuff is so
finely calibrated that it would be beyond the capabilities of anything
but an expert calibration lab to accomplish the task. Just having the
standards necessary takes a whole lab... and a whole budget. I know
this because I tried to set up a NIST traceable cal lab for my business,
and eventually concluded that for me to do that, cal would have to
become my exclusive business. I still have all the standards and
equipment, but no time to put them to use... No money to keep them in
cert with NIST. It is FAR cheaper to send the stuff out and get it
calibrated.

The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.

-Chuck

"Ed Price" wrote in message news:WFoub.16633$cX1.14167@fed1read02...
"gw" wrote in message
om...
"Ed Price" wrote in message
news:nO_tb.9428$cX1.8536@fed1read02...
"gw" wrote in message
om...
Roy Lewallen wrote in message
...
Thanks to Ed for the good advice.

I've got an HP 140T. As far as I know, the only difference between
it
and the 141T is that the CRT in mine is a conventional one with
long-persistence phosphor rather than a storage tube. It uses the
same
plug-in units as the 141T. I find it to be very usable, and don't
really
miss storage capability at all. I think the tube is a lot more
trouble-free than a storage type unit.

So I recommend that you don't turn down a 140T if you come across
one --
and you might even have a better chance of getting a unit with a
working
display than with a 141T.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Ed Price wrote:

[Lots of good advice]


well it is amazing i think how some of these units retain their resale
value even though the companies that made them do not service them or
back them......man who was the brainiac that thought about how to
implement this scam?

Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or
exotic
service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Ed
wb6wsn

well ed what are your thoughts on a hp 8590? bueno o no bueno?

A very good analyzer series, but generally still priced out of the hobbyist
market. Reasonably portable, and ruggedly built. Performance is generally a
bit lower than the 856x series, but still very respectable. Much more useful
than a hobbyist-affordable 141 analyzer, and easier and more versatile than
an older 8569 analyzer. Unless your needs are exotic, the 859x series will
be a good industrial choice.

Ed
wb6wsn


well some guy who has a company that i guess is in the business of
buying refurbing and selling electronic equipment has one on ebay for
about $2100.00. should i cross my fingers and go for it? he takes
credit cards. he says it is working very well, it looks real good
according the pics he has of it and it has a fresh calibration.

Dave Hall wrote:
Ed Price wrote:

"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
. ..

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:40 -0800, "Ed Price"
wrote:


Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or

exotic

service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
-

Winston Churchill

For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.

Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.


This might be a bit off the exact topic but I have a friend who has a HP
141 and the horozontal display scan has shrunk and folded over on top of
itself. Having never worked on test equipment, I could only offer
generic possibilities, (Voltages, deflection transistors, caps?). Is
there are common part failure that can cause this to the best of your
knowlege?

Thanks,
Dave


Look at the 2W resistors and the output transistors in the output
deflection stages for a start.

Andrew

"gw" wrote in message
om...
"Ed Price" wrote in message
news:WFoub.16633$cX1.14167@fed1read02...
"gw" wrote in message

SNIP


well ed what are your thoughts on a hp 8590? bueno o no bueno?

A very good analyzer series, but generally still priced out of the
hobbyist
market. Reasonably portable, and ruggedly built. Performance is
generally a
bit lower than the 856x series, but still very respectable. Much more
useful
than a hobbyist-affordable 141 analyzer, and easier and more versatile
than
an older 8569 analyzer. Unless your needs are exotic, the 859x series
will
be a good industrial choice.

Ed
wb6wsn


well some guy who has a company that i guess is in the business of
buying refurbing and selling electronic equipment has one on ebay for
about $2100.00. should i cross my fingers and go for it? he takes
credit cards. he says it is working very well, it looks real good
according the pics he has of it and it has a fresh calibration.


I can't assess risk for you, but $2k sounds like a fair price for a good
condition 8590.

Ed
wb6wsn

"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
Ed Price wrote:

We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items.
A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability
is
often not a concern.

If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.

Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size.

SNIP

The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.

-Chuck


You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn

Ed Price wrote:

"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:40 -0800, "Ed Price"
wrote:

Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or
exotic
service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
-
Winston Churchill

For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.

Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.

This might be a bit off the exact topic but I have a friend who has a HP
141 and the horozontal display scan has shrunk and folded over on top of
itself. Having never worked on test equipment, I could only offer
generic possibilities, (Voltages, deflection transistors, caps?). Is
there are common part failure that can cause this to the best of your
knowlege?

Thanks,
Dave

Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn

Andrew Tweddle wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:
Ed Price wrote:

"Paul Burridge" wrote in message
. ..

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:40 -0800, "Ed Price"
wrote:


Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or

exotic

service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.

Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
-

Winston Churchill

For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.

Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.


This might be a bit off the exact topic but I have a friend who has a HP
141 and the horozontal display scan has shrunk and folded over on top of
itself. Having never worked on test equipment, I could only offer
generic possibilities, (Voltages, deflection transistors, caps?). Is
there are common part failure that can cause this to the best of your
knowlege?

Thanks,
Dave


Look at the 2W resistors and the output transistors in the output
deflection stages for a start.

Andrew


Thank you!

Dave

Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?

gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message ...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

Chuck Harris wrote:
gw wrote:

Chuck Harris wrote in message
...


-Chuck, WA3UQV


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?



Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck


So Chuck your looking for a Trash 8/E rather than a Trash 80. BTW my
Trash 80 was a real Trash 80. R.S said it was uneconomical to repair,
read out of warrenty replaced a bad ttl chip and away it went. A friend
reworked the firmware to get rid of the infamous keyboard and cassette
problems(we rescued 8 of them from that dumpster).
Bill

Bill Higdon wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote:


So Chuck your looking for a Trash 8/E rather than a Trash 80. BTW my
Trash 80 was a real Trash 80. R.S said it was uneconomical to repair,
read out of warrenty replaced a bad ttl chip and away it went. A friend
reworked the firmware to get rid of the infamous keyboard and cassette
problems(we rescued 8 of them from that dumpster).
Bill


Snort! That's a good one! I spent too much time using the original
TRS-80 to ever really want one. In one of my first consulting jobs
I wrote a bunch of drivers for a customer's Z80 controlled instrument
using the customer's TRS-80 as the development system. It worked just
fine, I guess... it got the job done, but I never did like it all that
much. I kind of liked the TRS80 IV, I think it was, that came out much
later.

-Chuck

FYI: I still use the Color Computer to do laser light shows.
Steve, k,9,d,c,i


"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

Steve Nosko wrote:
FYI: I still use the Color Computer to do laser light shows.
Steve, k,9,d,c,i

Good for you! I really felt stupid seeing mine in the trash can only a
year or two after having paid $300 for it.
Shoulda kept it? Nah.
Still have that little pocket version with 4k RAM, though. It'll come
in handy someday :-)
-Bill M

Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message ...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.

"gw" wrote in message
om...
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...

SNIP

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?

Sorry, I never had much use for TRS-80's. But I do have a Commodore PET; a
very original one (with the black tape deck). It has an IEEE-488 port, and a
Basic that can control any IEEE-488 instrument. And, considering that it has
a built-in monochrome monitor, it qualifies as a genuine boat-anchor, since
it glows in the dark. g

Ed

"gw" wrote in message
m...
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.

A commercial calibration implies no warranty of future reliability. It just
means that the unit was inspected, by a lab with traceable standards (to
NIST), and that equipment parameters were found to be within the specified
tolerances (or some adjustments we made to allow for proper performance).

Every equipment should be on a periodic schedule of calibration, possibly 6
months or 12 months. The interval is determined by the original
manufacturer's declaration, or from the class of equipment (is it a resistor
or a function generator or an oscilloscope), or from the accumulated record
of a device's calibration history. (A Metrology professional can make a case
for shorter or longer intervals, based on a review of the calibration
history.)

The calibration is valid as of that date only, although it's reasonable to
expect that the calibration will be valid for some time to come (unless the
shipper dropped it as it went out the cal lab's door!).

All that said, a traceable calibration is an indication that the equipment
has been treated in a professional manner, and I would view that as a
definite plus when considering a purchase.


Ed
WB6WSN

"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

That's my opinion. Do I care what Agilent or Tektronix thinks? Gee, do they
care what I think? And why are YOU worried about their feelings? Sounds like
your nose if pretty far up somebody's butt!

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable.

By the average hobbyist? I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!

The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology.

Sorry, I don't do watches. A "little optical help" isn't a magnifying lens
in a fluorescent work light. SM work calls for something like a B&L stereo
viewer, and that's as expensive as a very decent oscilloscope. BTW, turn on
your spell checker, a 1980's technology.

From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.

Well, don't let lack of direct knowledge slow down your opinions.

SNIP

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

I wish you enjoyed reading the thread as well. I said you were either a
professional or a very rich hobbyist (as you had declared ownership of some
nice gear). OK, you are a professional. Do you hear me now? YOU ARE A
PROFESSIONAL!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Well, that's a good sign, as we have been yakking about this in the
boatanchors (and more) group. This is a hangout for hobbyists and very
frugal professionals.

Ed
WB6WSN

Fresh calibration, should mean that it was fully tested out,
cleaned and calibrated by a technician who knew what he was
doing....

What it actually means is anybodies guess. It could be actually
calibrated, it could be that the guy bought it surplus, turned
it on, and it lit up.

The words "fresh calibration" without an express warranty are
worthless.

Most anything Tektronix or HP made will stay in calibration to
close enough for hobbiest use for years.

A real bonifide business won't be comfortable using test equipment
that is out of calibration for anything very important. It is
their assurance that all of the functions should be working properly.

-Chuck, WA3UQV

gw wrote:

perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.

Ed Price wrote:

That's my opinion. Do I care what Agilent or Tektronix thinks? Gee, do they
care what I think? And why are YOU worried about their feelings? Sounds like
your nose if pretty far up somebody's butt!

You should care. Unless you suddenly start building your own test
equipment, you are going to be "stuck" with using equipment geared
toward professionals, and manufactured by companies like HP(Agilent)
or tektronix.

OBTW, can you think of a less vulgar way of expressing your opinions?

I have no financial interest in any test equipment manufacturer. They
don't give me special favors, or punishments for stating my opinions.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable.


By the average hobbyist? I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!

The "average hobbyist" once made complete radios from hunks
of rock, metal and wood. A pretty extreme feat for the time.
Now if it requires a little study, or the acquisition of some
special skill, or tools, it is deemed impossible.


The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology.


Sorry, I don't do watches. A "little optical help" isn't a magnifying lens
in a fluorescent work light. SM work calls for something like a B&L stereo
viewer, and that's as expensive as a very decent oscilloscope. BTW, turn on
your spell checker, a 1980's technology.


At least when I post, my spelling is the result of my own efforts.
Yours, apparently, comes from the efforts of a machine. I don't
think it hurt your eyes all that much to stumble over one of my very
few typo's. When you type at over 100WPM, a few will sneak in now and
then.

The parts in these hybrids are very large compared with mechanical watch
parts. A cheapy stereo dissection microscope works very nicely...
easily had for $250 new, or $100 on ebay. Back in the days of yore,
adjusted to today's dollar, a soldering gun cost as much.

From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.


Well, don't let lack of direct knowledge slow down your opinions.

You have some direct knowledge that says differently? I know that there
will be some parts that are special, but I doubt all are. I have
several friends that do a good business repairing these "special"
hybrids, they aren't great big companies, just individual hams that saw
a market.

I haven't needed to go inside the hybrids on my 2465, mostly because I
don't put my scope into positions where it is likely it will get zapped.

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!


I wish you enjoyed reading the thread as well. I said you were either a
professional or a very rich hobbyist (as you had declared ownership of some
nice gear). OK, you are a professional. Do you hear me now? YOU ARE A
PROFESSIONAL!


REALLY?

------ your exact words------------
..............................If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must
not apply to you.
------ your exact words -----------

Stop trying to bend the record to make me look bad, and you look good.

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)


Well, that's a good sign, as we have been yakking about this in the
boatanchors (and more) group. This is a hangout for hobbyists and very
frugal professionals.

It is a hangout for people with an interest in boatanchors, nothing
more, nothing less.

-Chuck, WA3UQV

"Ed Price" wrote in message news:ZX%ub.18357$cX1.8301@fed1read02...
"gw" wrote in message
om...
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...

SNIP

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?

Sorry, I never had much use for TRS-80's. But I do have a Commodore PET; a
very original one (with the black tape deck). It has an IEEE-488 port, and a
Basic that can control any IEEE-488 instrument. And, considering that it has
a built-in monochrome monitor, it qualifies as a genuine boat-anchor, since
it glows in the dark. g

Ed

damn ....commodores.....i almost forgot about them......do you
remember the compaq 'portable' that about broke your back when you
carried it?

By the average hobbyist? I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!

I work on SMD all the time. All that's needed is a 40W temperature
controlled iron, a roll of good solder braid, and 63/37 solder with internal
no-clean flux.
I go down as far as 0402 components, which look like sand, and have replaced
100 pin QFP chips without problem. BGAs are where the hobbyist becomes
incapable of working on them. (Ball Grid Arrays)

"
damn ....commodores.....i almost forgot about them......do you
remember the compaq 'portable' that about broke your back when you
carried it?

Yes, and I came within one day of throwing one down some stairs to put it
out of service so I could get a laptop at work.

"Ed Price" wrote in message news:tPmtb.4837$cX1.463@fed1read02...
"John Miles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
johnm wrote in message
...
what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

SNIP

how about a 8569b ? some guy has one on ebay now for about
$3,000.00......i might pull the trigger on that one.....I would be
using it for hf work. I was considering a 141t from tucker . it cost
more but at least you know it works. i was going to get the 8552b and
8553b plugins with it. then you have to round up the connecting cables
and manuals for them. comments? oh by the way i have read good things
about the hp 8569b's. if they work.

My guess is that the 8569b would be a very passable unit. Its specs
seem competitive with an optioned-out Tek 492 in most respects, except
that it only goes down to 10 MHz (perhaps there's an underrange
capability that lets it see lower frequencies?) That might be a concern
if you're going to be using it mostly for HF work.

SNIP

The 141Ts at Tucker seem like a pretty good deal. I believe they all
come with new CRTs. I personally like to buy broken models on eBay and
fix them up. It's cheaper, you get really familiar with the gear inside
and out, and you always have spare parts on hand. But that strategy
isn't for everybody.

-- jm


As I have HP-141's, an HP-8569, an 8566B and an 8562A, let me drop a few
comments here.

The 141's are the best deal for a hobbyist. You can acquire the slightly
better 8552B IF section, and then get only the RF plug-in that suits your
needs (an 8556, with it's built-in tracking generator, for a few Hz to 300
kHz, or an 8555, for 10 MHz through umpteen GHz, assuming you also get the
external mixers). Unfortunately, by the time a hobbyist gets one of these,
it has been abused and neglected by its last commercial owner. CRT burns are
common, and the flood-gun analog memory may be very quirky. For an advanced
hobbyist, either get an associated Polaroid scope camera, or build your own
camera hood. You can capture a lot of transient things that way, and you can
scan the pixs to input into your computer. Also, HP made a line of
oscilloscope plug-ins that fit the 141 mainframe, so you can use the 141 as
a multi-channel analog memory oscilloscope too. 141's are a pain in two
ways; first, you have to externally store extra plug-ins, and secondly, the
hard side handles make carrying one a painful experience beyond about 50
feet. Also, you tend to injure your fingertips sliding those bulky plug-ins
in and out past the big metal front handles. The 141 may also be the last of
the hobbyist repairable analyzers; newer analyzers use proprietary chips and
are built too dense to let you get fingers and probes into them.

The 8562A is old (1987) but a superb analyzer, 1 kHz to 18 GHz, all digital
and synthesized. This will do everything you want, except drive a parallel
or RS-232 printer directly. If you're smart enough to talk to it by
IEEE-488, then you can do everything through the computer. Other 856x series
units have lesser capabilities, but are still great analyzers, and just
might be priced low enough for a very serious hobbyist. Also, the HP-859x
series are very good, although some have odd frequency, memory and IO
capabilities. All 856x & 859x series units are one-man portables, until your
knuckles turn white and numb.

The 8569 is, in my opinion, a transitional beast between the analog and
digital worlds. It's not as stable and simple as the 8562A, although it's a
leap above the 141. Since it's wide, it's also awkward to carry using it's
handle. I'm not much of a fan of the 8569.

The 8566B is HP's top-of-the-line analyzer. They threw down the benchmark
for everyone else to try to meet. Mine is customized a bit, covering 20 Hz
to 22 GHz, and with an external tracking pre-selector, optional detectors,
programmable attenuators, RF path switching and low-noise pre-amps. My
company has a number of somewhat more plain-vanilla 8566B's and 8566A's.
There isn't anything I need to do that these units fall short of (uhh, with
the help of some external IEEE-488 linked computers). OTOH, these are now
obsolete, non-supported by Agilent, and need two guys to carry one. Mine is
in a 60" tall dedicated rack. Typical used price is around $20k.

Most companies will be better served with one of Agilent's newer EPA or SPA
analyzers. Anritsu and Rohde & Schwartz are also making fine analyzers.
IIRC, Leader makes an analyzer that a hobbyist may aspire to affording.

I would say that a 141 is still the best hobbyist choice. A company needs to
be sure that they get a usable item for their money, so buying on eBay is a
gamble. A company should buy from some place like Tucker, where they get a
warranty backed by a reputable source. Yeah, it initially costs more. But
it's a lot safer than having to try to repair an analyzer when you need that
analyzer to do the real work of your company. A hobbyist can afford to spend
50 to 100 hours to get something going; in a business environment, where the
clock is always ticking, that's unacceptable.

Ed
wb6wsn


ed ...what is a tracking generator and how is it a advantage for a
home hobbyist to have one or is it really necessary? also what do you
thing about 8565a's

also what is the determining factor for pricing on these various units
on ebay? does it have anything to do with the options on each unit?
sometimes there would appear to be some flucuations on the prices on
either the same type unit or a similar unit.

A tracking generator is a sweep generator calibrated to track
to the center frequency of a spectrum analyzer as it sweeps.

Got it?

It is used to display the bandpass characteristics of a network
using a spectrum analyzer.

-Chuck

gw wrote:
"Ed Price" wrote in message news:tPmtb.4837$cX1.463@fed1read02...

"John Miles" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

johnm wrote in message

...

what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

SNIP


how about a 8569b ? some guy has one on ebay now for about
$3,000.00......i might pull the trigger on that one.....I would be
using it for hf work. I was considering a 141t from tucker . it cost
more but at least you know it works. i was going to get the 8552b and
8553b plugins with it. then you have to round up the connecting cables
and manuals for them. comments? oh by the way i have read good things
about the hp 8569b's. if they work.

My guess is that the 8569b would be a very passable unit. Its specs
seem competitive with an optioned-out Tek 492 in most respects, except
that it only goes down to 10 MHz (perhaps there's an underrange
capability that lets it see lower frequencies?) That might be a concern
if you're going to be using it mostly for HF work.

SNIP


The 141Ts at Tucker seem like a pretty good deal. I believe they all
come with new CRTs. I personally like to buy broken models on eBay and
fix them up. It's cheaper, you get really familiar with the gear inside
and out, and you always have spare parts on hand. But that strategy
isn't for everybody.

-- jm


As I have HP-141's, an HP-8569, an 8566B and an 8562A, let me drop a few
comments here.

The 141's are the best deal for a hobbyist. You can acquire the slightly
better 8552B IF section, and then get only the RF plug-in that suits your
needs (an 8556, with it's built-in tracking generator, for a few Hz to 300
kHz, or an 8555, for 10 MHz through umpteen GHz, assuming you also get the
external mixers). Unfortunately, by the time a hobbyist gets one of these,
it has been abused and neglected by its last commercial owner. CRT burns are
common, and the flood-gun analog memory may be very quirky. For an advanced
hobbyist, either get an associated Polaroid scope camera, or build your own
camera hood. You can capture a lot of transient things that way, and you can
scan the pixs to input into your computer. Also, HP made a line of
oscilloscope plug-ins that fit the 141 mainframe, so you can use the 141 as
a multi-channel analog memory oscilloscope too. 141's are a pain in two
ways; first, you have to externally store extra plug-ins, and secondly, the
hard side handles make carrying one a painful experience beyond about 50
feet. Also, you tend to injure your fingertips sliding those bulky plug-ins
in and out past the big metal front handles. The 141 may also be the last of
the hobbyist repairable analyzers; newer analyzers use proprietary chips and
are built too dense to let you get fingers and probes into them.

The 8562A is old (1987) but a superb analyzer, 1 kHz to 18 GHz, all digital
and synthesized. This will do everything you want, except drive a parallel
or RS-232 printer directly. If you're smart enough to talk to it by
IEEE-488, then you can do everything through the computer. Other 856x series
units have lesser capabilities, but are still great analyzers, and just
might be priced low enough for a very serious hobbyist. Also, the HP-859x
series are very good, although some have odd frequency, memory and IO
capabilities. All 856x & 859x series units are one-man portables, until your
knuckles turn white and numb.

The 8569 is, in my opinion, a transitional beast between the analog and
digital worlds. It's not as stable and simple as the 8562A, although it's a
leap above the 141. Since it's wide, it's also awkward to carry using it's
handle. I'm not much of a fan of the 8569.

The 8566B is HP's top-of-the-line analyzer. They threw down the benchmark
for everyone else to try to meet. Mine is customized a bit, covering 20 Hz
to 22 GHz, and with an external tracking pre-selector, optional detectors,
programmable attenuators, RF path switching and low-noise pre-amps. My
company has a number of somewhat more plain-vanilla 8566B's and 8566A's.
There isn't anything I need to do that these units fall short of (uhh, with
the help of some external IEEE-488 linked computers). OTOH, these are now
obsolete, non-supported by Agilent, and need two guys to carry one. Mine is
in a 60" tall dedicated rack. Typical used price is around $20k.

Most companies will be better served with one of Agilent's newer EPA or SPA
analyzers. Anritsu and Rohde & Schwartz are also making fine analyzers.
IIRC, Leader makes an analyzer that a hobbyist may aspire to affording.

I would say that a 141 is still the best hobbyist choice. A company needs to
be sure that they get a usable item for their money, so buying on eBay is a
gamble. A company should buy from some place like Tucker, where they get a
warranty backed by a reputable source. Yeah, it initially costs more. But
it's a lot safer than having to try to repair an analyzer when you need that
analyzer to do the real work of your company. A hobbyist can afford to spend
50 to 100 hours to get something going; in a business environment, where the
clock is always ticking, that's unacceptable.

Ed
wb6wsn



ed ...what is a tracking generator and how is it a advantage for a
home hobbyist to have one or is it really necessary? also what do you
thing about 8565a's

also what is the determining factor for pricing on these various units
on ebay? does it have anything to do with the options on each unit?
sometimes there would appear to be some flucuations on the prices on
either the same type unit or a similar unit.

"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
A tracking generator is a sweep generator calibrated to track
to the center frequency of a spectrum analyzer as it sweeps.

Got it?

It is used to display the bandpass characteristics of a network
using a spectrum analyzer.

-Chuck

Exactly. I found the 8556 plug-in, with a range of 20 Hz to 300 kHz, to be
very handy when I was designing lowpass EMI filters (which usually have a
cut-off frequency below 10 kHz or so, and increase in loss to maybe 60 dB by
100 kHz. The tracking generator could give me a quick look at the cutoff and
slope, so I could tweak the circuit in real-time. It's also handy for
acoustics, ultrasonic and vibration testing.

And the 141 has a plotter X & Y output, so you can drive an analog plotter
to trace the curve using a very slow sweep speed.

Ed

"Ed Price" wrote in message news:9I%vb.10793$m24.4481@fed1read02...
"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
A tracking generator is a sweep generator calibrated to track
to the center frequency of a spectrum analyzer as it sweeps.

Got it?

It is used to display the bandpass characteristics of a network
using a spectrum analyzer.

-Chuck

Exactly. I found the 8556 plug-in, with a range of 20 Hz to 300 kHz, to be
very handy when I was designing lowpass EMI filters (which usually have a
cut-off frequency below 10 kHz or so, and increase in loss to maybe 60 dB by
100 kHz. The tracking generator could give me a quick look at the cutoff and
slope, so I could tweak the circuit in real-time. It's also handy for
acoustics, ultrasonic and vibration testing.

And the 141 has a plotter X & Y output, so you can drive an analog plotter
to trace the curve using a very slow sweep speed.

Ed


hmmm....i think i want one.....