"Steve N." wrote in
:

OK, OK, OK I'll bite just a bit...


"Slow Code" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Steve N." wrote in
:

Slow,
It's is a shame you have to:

1- talk like this and
2- have so little respect for others and
3- have no ability to rationally discuss prows and cons complex
issues and 4- have a poor understanding of what makes a good ham and
5- have so little understanding some real-world practical aspects of
this issue and most importantly...
6- show such poor ham characteristics.
7- and probably have so little real knowledge of ham radio, is my
guess. and
8- be a troll

If you're also a 20 WPM extra, then we can easily do without your
immature attitudes and behaviors here and on the bands.

Hey guys! it is also a shame you get drawn into these types and feed
their small minds.

73, Steve, K9DCI


Yes, Yes, yes,
but what are your thoughts on the following:


No more automatic renewals. Individuals must retest and pass
all elements required for their license class.


sc,

Lesee... Well, I believe you have some discussable concepts here.

In other areas there are currency requirements. Flying, for example.
If
you haven't kept up, you need refresher flights with an instructor. We
first try to outline what is gained / lost over time and whether
re-testing can address these issues. Old timers will be required to
learn about QPSK and all the modern concepts.

Then we go from here.

One general area you seem to fail to address is some of the practical
aspects regarding number of licensees and the viability of retaining the
Amateur Service all together. If the number of Hams keeps declining,
will there be ANY licenses...and do you (in general) want to preserve
something, or kill it all if numbers fall, manufacturers stop producing
products, etc... This can not be ignored in the rest of the
discussions.

I know Extras who couldn't build a thing, yet are active, intelligent
and law abiding. They have interest I can discuss with them. I also
know no-code'ers that are the most serious hams around...not to mention
several that came from CB and are now died-in-the-wool-hams.
I also hear Extras on the air that should aim for a tree the next time
they drive a car.

Is learning CW a "right of passage" and an effort that helps to
strengthen the Ham...yes...for some. Does it guarantee an excellent,
expert Ham? Not by a long shot. That comes from elsewhere.

However, based on the post of yours that I responded to, I choose
not to
go further since you have demonstrated such a poor attitude, I feel it
is not worth the time exploring with you. Ill pick more important
battles. Enjoy your Hamm activities (if you have any) and be content.
you brand or devisiveness accompliches nothing except, perhaps allowing
a few of the responders to vent and possibly hear (though by accident)
some reasonable points.

Do you have a call, name? With a pseudonym like yours, I'd think
you'dbe on the other side. What are you affraid of?

73, Steve K9DCI

The passing score for written exams needs to be raised to 85%.

How about the licence grade depending on the score? How about
much
more strict requirements for on-air procedure. I hear many who have
licenses and still don't know how to communicate efficiently in
emergency drills or ID properly.


Code elements should be 13 wpm for General, and 20 wpm for Extra.

CW only was a requirement due to international treaty in the
first
place. That is no longer the case. You are clrarly hung up on CW.
WHY? What does it bring / guarantee? Why is CW so much more important
that all other aspects of on-air operation?

Make the no-code Tech license one year non-renewable.

This still comes directly from the "CW or nothing" concept.
73 (in the truest sense)



My arguement has always been for the quality of the hams. You appreciate
something more that you had to work to achieve, and respect the rewards
it gives.

Cheapening something makes it disposable. Ham numbers are declining.

sc

Slow Code wrote:
"Steve N." wrote in
:

OK, OK, OK I'll bite just a bit...

This still comes directly from the "CW or nothing" concept.
73 (in the truest sense)



My arguement has always been for the quality of the hams. You appreciate
something more that you had to work to achieve, and respect the rewards
it gives.
you arguement is false

I value things based on their proifit to me

My tech license is higher profitable becuase it took little to get and
get me a lot

Cheapening something makes it disposable.
how is making testing reflect reality cheapening?
Ham numbers are declining.
becuase of age mostly

hams are litterly dying off

sc

Slow,
Can you address any of my comments in my previous, or here ?


My arguement has always been for the quality of the hams.

OK. Given this, is it true that everything else is unimportant to you -
only the quality? [there always have been jerks around.]


You appreciate something more that you had to work to achieve, and respect
the rewards
it gives.

I think I can agree with this. Give a kid a car or whatever, and he's
more likely to treat it badly. Make him work for it and he appreciates the
value and shows the appropriate care with it..


Cheapening something makes it disposable.

Yea.... I understand that having to do the CW thing is more work and
more likely that the licence will be valued, but what about putting the
prospective ham through other, more rigorous hoops, like electronic theory,
emcom, etc. Why won't more modern "hoops" work the same way to bolster the
individual's respect for the service?

Ham numbers are declining.

I believe this is true, but what is you reason for stating this? Are you
glad this is happening or sad or indifferent?

73, Steve, K9DCI

"Steve N." wrote in
:



Slow,
Can you address any of my comments in my previous, or here ?


My arguement has always been for the quality of the hams.

OK. Given this, is it true that everything else is unimportant to you -
only the quality? [there always have been jerks around.]

So let's have more?



You appreciate something more that you had to work to achieve, and
respect
the rewards
it gives.

I think I can agree with this. Give a kid a car or whatever, and he's
more likely to treat it badly. Make him work for it and he appreciates
the value and shows the appropriate care with it..


Cheapening something makes it disposable.

Yea.... I understand that having to do the CW thing is more work and
more likely that the licence will be valued, but what about putting the
prospective ham through other, more rigorous hoops, like electronic
theory, emcom, etc. Why won't more modern "hoops" work the same way to
bolster the individual's respect for the service?

Yes, 85% passing score for writtens.


Ham numbers are declining.

I believe this is true, but what is you reason for stating this? Are
you
glad this is happening or sad or indifferent?

The numbers don't matter, quality does. Reasoning a service is good
because it has lots of members, CB should be great then, but it's like a
kindergarten.

sc

Slow Code wrote:
"Steve N." wrote in
:

Ham numbers are declining.

I believe this is true, but what is you reason for stating this? Are
you
glad this is happening or sad or indifferent?

The numbers don't matter, quality does.
number do Matter this line show you as a complete fool
Reasoning a service is good
because it has lots of members, CB should be great then, but it's like a
kindergarten.

it also suffering from ZERO danger of losing it freqs either

still nothing in your materail even suggests that CW testing is good
for the ARS

besudes you and your freinds have failed to convine the FCC of ithat

read the NPRM

if you can't sell even if it were the truth it would not matter

sc

"Slow Code" wrote in message
t...
"Steve N." wrote in
:

Slow,
Can you address any of my comments in my previous, or here ?

Unfortunately, it appears not too well..


is it true that everything else is unimportant to you -
only the quality? [there always have been jerks around.]

So let's have more?

...is not an answer to my question and this question provides no clue.
It implies I said that more jerks will result from those that will always be
there...I think. or that I want more...


You appreciate something more that you had to work to achieve, and
respect the rewards it gives.
...snip...
Yea.... I understand ... but what about putting the
prospective ham through other, more rigorous hoops, like electronic
theory, emcom, etc. Why won't more modern "hoops" work the same way to
bolster the individual's respect for the service?

Yes, 85% passing score for writtens.

OK, 85% is another kind of hoop. but Please answer my "Why" question.


Ham numbers are declining.

I believe this is true, but what is you reason for stating this? Are
you glad this is happening or sad or indifferent?

The numbers don't matter, quality does.

OK, so this seems to answer my other question. While I agree, that in
a perfect world I would also restrict licences to only those who have a
decent head on their shoulders...however, do _you_ trust _me_ to decide
whose head is good?

These are my last questions:
Do you believe:
1- CW and 85% on exams will prevent or seriously limit the number of
knuckleheads who sneek through?
2- That I am lying when I tell of some no-code techs that I personally know
are the most serious, level headed and law abiding hams I know?
3- That I am lying when I tell you that I also know some very good hams who
came up through CB and are just as law abiding when on the ham bands as
anyone, just as serious about being good citizens, do emergency prep work
and help others?

Reasoning a service is good because it has lots of members,

[ is incorrent reasoning] is what the implied completion of that sentence
is.

I agree. There have been and are some pretty wacko organizations.
....but...

CB should be great then, but it's like a kindergarten.
Is a gross generalization. How often do you listen? How many "CB'ers"
have you recently talked to?

I listen once in a while just to see what's going on and be able to speak
with first hand knowledge, and do hear some garbage, but I also hear of how
it has helped in aread and ther ewere no hams around to help. Also, some
areas have been worse than others,


1- I believe you have a limited view of CB [and no, I haven't been a "CB'er"
but I have carried a radio on a few, I think two long trips where I would
have trouble getting into repeaters for long periods.]. I have been helped
by "CBers".
2- what percentage of CB users are jerks?
3- What percentage of hams are jerks? then...
4- What percentage of jerks makes the service bad?

My suggestions
CW optional as it is now for *ALL* modes, but remove from the tests...except
possibly for Extra - my jury's still out on this.
85-87% on tests, but
Much more on propagation, antenna systems and emergency station operations
and emergency communications and laws.


Then some others in the "if I were Amateur Radio Service God" department...
Currency requiremets like pilots that include familiarity recent
developments.
Proof of license, and that you can understand, explain and operate at least
90% of the functions on a radio in order to buy.
If I wanted to be an old timer, I'd also require construction of
something...knowledge of the history of ham Radio.
Then being more modern, something like proficiency in software, digital
modes and satellite ops.
Gee, I should spend more time on these.... not. More important fish to
fry.

Sorry, guys, I just couldn't resist a little chain jerking here.
73, Steve, K9DCI

At lease I got sc to answer a few questions ... sort of.

"Steve N." wrote in
:


"Slow Code" wrote in message
t...
"Steve N." wrote in
:

Slow,
Can you address any of my comments in my previous, or here ?

Unfortunately, it appears not too well..


is it true that everything else is unimportant to you -
only the quality? [there always have been jerks around.]

So let's have more?

...is not an answer to my question and this question provides no
clue.
It implies I said that more jerks will result from those that will
always be there...I think. or that I want more...


You appreciate something more that you had to work to achieve, and
respect the rewards it gives.
...snip...
Yea.... I understand ... but what about putting the
prospective ham through other, more rigorous hoops, like electronic
theory, emcom, etc. Why won't more modern "hoops" work the same way
to bolster the individual's respect for the service?

Yes, 85% passing score for writtens.

OK, 85% is another kind of hoop. but Please answer my "Why"
question.


Ham numbers are declining.

I believe this is true, but what is you reason for stating this?
Are you glad this is happening or sad or indifferent?

The numbers don't matter, quality does.

OK, so this seems to answer my other question. While I agree,
that in
a perfect world I would also restrict licences to only those who have a
decent head on their shoulders...however, do _you_ trust _me_ to decide
whose head is good?

These are my last questions:
Do you believe:
1- CW and 85% on exams will prevent or seriously limit the number of
knuckleheads who sneek through?
2- That I am lying when I tell of some no-code techs that I personally
know are the most serious, level headed and law abiding hams I know?
3- That I am lying when I tell you that I also know some very good hams
who came up through CB and are just as law abiding when on the ham bands
as anyone, just as serious about being good citizens, do emergency prep
work and help others?

Reasoning a service is good because it has lots of members,

[ is incorrent reasoning] is what the implied completion of that
sentence
is.

I agree. There have been and are some pretty wacko
organizations.
...but...

CB should be great then, but it's like a kindergarten.
Is a gross generalization. How often do you listen? How many
"CB'ers"
have you recently talked to?

I listen once in a while just to see what's going on and be able to
speak with first hand knowledge, and do hear some garbage, but I also
hear of how it has helped in aread and ther ewere no hams around to
help. Also, some areas have been worse than others,


1- I believe you have a limited view of CB [and no, I haven't been a
"CB'er" but I have carried a radio on a few, I think two long trips
where I would have trouble getting into repeaters for long periods.]. I
have been helped by "CBers".
2- what percentage of CB users are jerks?
3- What percentage of hams are jerks? then...
4- What percentage of jerks makes the service bad?

My suggestions
CW optional as it is now for *ALL* modes, but remove from the
tests...except possibly for Extra - my jury's still out on this.
85-87% on tests, but
Much more on propagation, antenna systems and emergency station
operations and emergency communications and laws.


Then some others in the "if I were Amateur Radio Service God"
department... Currency requiremets like pilots that include familiarity
recent developments.
Proof of license, and that you can understand, explain and operate at
least 90% of the functions on a radio in order to buy.
If I wanted to be an old timer, I'd also require construction of
something...knowledge of the history of ham Radio.
Then being more modern, something like proficiency in software, digital
modes and satellite ops.
Gee, I should spend more time on these.... not. More important fish to
fry.

Sorry, guys, I just couldn't resist a little chain jerking here.
73, Steve, K9DCI

At lease I got sc to answer a few questions ... sort of.


Maybe you have a few CB buddies you'd like to see get licensed, and
dumbing things down will help, I don't know. Outcome based licensing. No
one wants to be a ham if they have to work a little harder for the license
and so no one wants to support having a good test to get one.

sc

"Slow Code" wrote in message
.net...
(snipped)
Maybe you have a few CB buddies you'd like to see get licensed, and
dumbing things down will help, I don't know. Outcome based licensing. No
one wants to be a ham if they have to work a little harder for the license
and so no one wants to support having a good test to get one.

sc

Another self proclaimed superior ham perpetuating the myth that CBers are
too dumb to pass the test. Keep that rift between hams and CBers and your
hobby will die an agonizing death. You have yourself to blame.

"Slow Code" wrote in message
.net...
"Steve N." wrote in
:


"Slow Code" wrote in message
t...
"Steve N." wrote in
:

Slow,
Can you address any of my comments in my previous, or here ?

Unfortunately, it appears not too well..


is it true that everything else is unimportant to you -
only the quality? [there always have been jerks around.]

So let's have more?

...is not an answer to my question and this question provides no
clue.
It implies I said that more jerks will result from those that will
always be there...I think. or that I want more...


You appreciate something more that you had to work to achieve, and
respect the rewards it gives.
...snip...
Yea.... I understand ... but what about putting the
prospective ham through other, more rigorous hoops, like electronic
theory, emcom, etc. Why won't more modern "hoops" work the same way
to bolster the individual's respect for the service?

Yes, 85% passing score for writtens.

OK, 85% is another kind of hoop. but Please answer my "Why"
question.


Ham numbers are declining.

I believe this is true, but what is you reason for stating this?
Are you glad this is happening or sad or indifferent?

The numbers don't matter, quality does.

OK, so this seems to answer my other question. While I agree,
that in
a perfect world I would also restrict licences to only those who have a
decent head on their shoulders...however, do _you_ trust _me_ to decide
whose head is good?

These are my last questions:
Do you believe:
1- CW and 85% on exams will prevent or seriously limit the number of
knuckleheads who sneek through?
2- That I am lying when I tell of some no-code techs that I personally
know are the most serious, level headed and law abiding hams I know?
3- That I am lying when I tell you that I also know some very good hams
who came up through CB and are just as law abiding when on the ham bands
as anyone, just as serious about being good citizens, do emergency prep
work and help others?

Reasoning a service is good because it has lots of members,

[ is incorrent reasoning] is what the implied completion of that
sentence
is.

I agree. There have been and are some pretty wacko
organizations.
...but...

CB should be great then, but it's like a kindergarten.
Is a gross generalization. How often do you listen? How many
"CB'ers"
have you recently talked to?

I listen once in a while just to see what's going on and be able to
speak with first hand knowledge, and do hear some garbage, but I also
hear of how it has helped in aread and ther ewere no hams around to
help. Also, some areas have been worse than others,


1- I believe you have a limited view of CB [and no, I haven't been a
"CB'er" but I have carried a radio on a few, I think two long trips
where I would have trouble getting into repeaters for long periods.]. I
have been helped by "CBers".
2- what percentage of CB users are jerks?
3- What percentage of hams are jerks? then...
4- What percentage of jerks makes the service bad?

My suggestions
CW optional as it is now for *ALL* modes, but remove from the
tests...except possibly for Extra - my jury's still out on this.
85-87% on tests, but
Much more on propagation, antenna systems and emergency station
operations and emergency communications and laws.


Then some others in the "if I were Amateur Radio Service God"
department... Currency requiremets like pilots that include familiarity
recent developments.
Proof of license, and that you can understand, explain and operate at
least 90% of the functions on a radio in order to buy.
If I wanted to be an old timer, I'd also require construction of
something...knowledge of the history of ham Radio.
Then being more modern, something like proficiency in software, digital
modes and satellite ops.
Gee, I should spend more time on these.... not. More important fish to
fry.

Sorry, guys, I just couldn't resist a little chain jerking here.
73, Steve, K9DCI

At lease I got sc to answer a few questions ... sort of.


Maybe you have a few CB buddies you'd like to see get licensed, and
dumbing things down will help, I don't know.

You sure don't! Also a very bad assumption and groundless..Also wrong,
not to mention irrelavant to my words and position. I said that I already
know *HAMS* who came from the CB side (only because they either told me
directly, or I overheard then discuss it on the air) ---whom I met as Hams.
They are top notch hams in every way.
I don't do CB, but have an old Morotola 40 CH AM unit because I want to
have as much communications capability to handle any eventuality in an
emergency. It would have been helpful in a serious malicious repeater
interference situation a number of years ago when I didn't have even 27 MHz
receive capability and it heloed solve and catch the perps.


Outcome based licensing.

You'll have to explain the meaning of this.

No
one wants to be a ham if they have to work a little harder for the license

False generalization " On one..." and "harder" than what?

This was dis proved by one of the posters responding to you who said
somethin like he wa looking forward to learning CW etyc... Unbeknownst to
you, there are people who do value things for their own sake and will enjoy
the feeling of self accomplishment..


and so no one wants to support having a good test to get one.

Well here *IS* one. I support a much harder test in the areas I previously
outlined. I *DO* agree that the CW hurdle can be one which makes us value
the license to a significant degree...HOWEVER, I believe it is not the ONLY
thing which can have this effect, as you appear to believe. I do do CW,
enjoy those contacts, marvel at the ability to QSO with any country /
language with it and feel ( alittle special being) part of an esoteric group
that knows it. However, it doesn't make me a better person simply because I
know it. My value derives from a deeper value.
Knowing that Hams were a VERY significant factor in communications for 9/11,
the SE Asia tsunami and Katrina makes me feel good and I bet there were many
code-less hams involved.

I'm a "techie" and would love to require everyone to build something and
explain something regarding electronics in much greater depth than on the
current tests. I also KNOW that this will not guatantee an all around
"good" ham. I also enjoy the diversity of those I meet on the air that
aren't Electrical Engineers or Technicians.

I think that if your position was valid there would haave been no jerk hams
in the past, when CW was on all tests.

Why was Knowledge of Morse there in the first place? Understanding this in
full context is, I believe, critical to cussions on this issue.

If you can't conceed that any of my points have any validity, than so be it.
It is your right. But I find you very closed minded and unable to
intelligently discuss a complex issue in a mature way. It is your right and
I'll also deffend your right to have your opinions. If for no other reason,
it allows me (and hopefully others) to more firmly and intelligently form
and understand mine.

73, Steve, K9DCI Always willing to show my true identity. and hopefuly
express thoughtful and well reasoned viewes along with correct and
understandable technicial explanations for others.