Cecil
Seems like the model is lacking in all the details
and frankly I feel I am looking at an intentianal sham for some reason
For instance you do not show coupling to ground which is why I am suspicious
since resonance is unavoidably affected by nearby objects as well as ground
I f you drew your model the same way you portray
your G5RV or Zepp type dipole to accomodate
the loss of coupling to ground I would feel a lot better.
You also have not specified a a frequency of use that
is also conspiciuos now I have been moved to a suspicious aproach especially
when you interchange wavelength and size of inductance at the same time
ignoring the coupling effects of said items which affect phase change..Plus
ignors the radiation effect even tho it may be self cancelling since you
show it as zero length !
Methinks I have to study the model more for a troubling omission like the
addition of a inductance that is dimensionless and large compared to a model
that ignores factors such as coupling.and the like.
No disrespect intended
Regards
Art
Art

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Tdonaly wrote:
Mark wrote in reply to Cecil,
I know you have said it multiple times, but so far I don't recollect
anyone actually measuring a real world coil, and finding max current
at the top of the coil. That is what is bothering me. MK

Cecil doesn't actually have to measure anything, since he's already
convinced
he's right because his arguments agree with the theory he made up in his
head.

Well, just so you guys can understand what I am talking about, here is
an EZNEC file that clearly demonstrates low current at the bottom of
the coil and high current at the top of the coil.

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/sqcoil.ez

The real test will be when someone tries to make a new, improved
antenna based on the belief that the current taper on the loading coil
of a physically short antenna makes a tinker's damn worth of difference
in the far field radiation of said antenna.

Nice try, but that's just a copout diversion because the far field
radiation is irrelevant to the argument over current through a
loading coil.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Seems like the model is lacking in all the details
and frankly I feel I am looking at an intentianal sham for some reason

Sorry you feel that way, Art. That is the output graphic from EZNEC.

For instance you do not show coupling to ground which is why I am suspicious
since resonance is unavoidably affected by nearby objects as well as ground

If there's something wrong, blame EZNEC. I am just reporting what
EZNEC sez.

You also have not specified a frequency of use ...

Of course I have, Art, it's in the .ez file. Since antennas are scalable,
the frequency is irrelevant to the diagram. Please download the .ez file.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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O.K. I have downloaded the file
Since the dipole is resonant the current magnitudes
on either side of the center must be symetrical.
If you had a half wave length of wire between the end half waves you would
have a half wave ofcurrent with a negative phase which reflects a phase
change at half wave intervals. every thing so far appears O.K.
Now you aparently changed the wire length so that half is represented by an
inductance and the remaining portion
stays in linear form to where a phase change occurs again.
Now the problem part. In another drawing reflecting a vertical the insertion
of an inductance was inserted
suddenly created an immmediate phase change even tho its wire make up only
consisted of something less than a half wave length on a predetermined basis
that any inductance initiates a phase change at both the beginning and the
end which I read as false.The phase change is predicated in a way by the
wire length that was crunched up to form an inductance.but without
capacitive coupling of any sort which is impossible.
When looking at Moxons book he shows two dipoles in linear form with a
parallel circuit at the center which can
represent a loop of a half wave dimension. He also shows the cureent flow in
the system from the left to the right
until it intersects the parallel loop circuit where it receives current that
is flowing counter clockwise within the loop.
At the end of the loop the current changes to one that symetry demands i.e
current is zero following a sinosoidal shape such that it reaches zero
current at the end as symetry requires for a resonant array...
Fron Moxons drawing the loop is simulating a mechanical pump operated by the
direction of current flow at any particular time where the input and output
current are one and the same value so that symetry required for resonance is
obtained.
Now when I come to your drawing of a vertical I become confused because the
top end is clearly zero current flow
which presumably is a requirement for resonance
but the inductance suddenly becomes dimension less
even tho it must have dimensions to reflect phase change
thus the current flow assigned to your vertical is clearly flawed.
Now Cecil I am not skilled in the art of antennas or modeling as you are but
I probably reflect the thinking
of the average ham. Thus I would not treat it personaly
if you viewed my reasoning as one that reflects a novice.
So why not correct the above reasoning in order given
so that the average novice can advance in the art
because of an enlightning rebuttal..
If we are beyond education such that we cannot be helped without duplication
of your own experiences then so be it and we must agree to disagree.
As I said earlier nothing personal but I would like the benefit of your
enlitenment so I can rebuild on a firmer foundation.
Regards
Art

Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Now when I come to your drawing of a vertical I become confused because the
top end is clearly zero current flow
which presumably is a requirement for resonance
but the inductance suddenly becomes dimension less ...

The coil in sqcoil.gif has dimensions, Art, but the drawing is in two
dimensions, x & z. The y dimension exists normal to the plane of the
drawing. The coil is a square coil in three dimensions. It is 2 feet
wide in the x dimension and 2 feet wide in the y dimension. The coils
are 0.5 feet apart.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Thanks for the reply Cecil
It is obvious to me that you are refering to a drawing or GIF as you call it
that I cannot retrieve to review thus I cannot continue this discussion as
it would resemble a chess game where I could not see opposing positions to
ascertain whether a rook was allowed to move as a pawn to thwart any moves I
made.
I like that analogy Cecil but it does resemble a discussion
that cannot progress with clarity or resolve. We are all playing on our home
fields where each is not sure how a touchdown was scored, if it was scored
and in whose favor..
No wonder this thread has more trails than a fishbone
with each poster crunching different parts of the bone
on the assumption that all are chewing on the same part.
Presumably my posting is now so unclear that it will fit neatly into and
conform to the overall thread.
Cecil we have severe weather here that it requires a real snow job from me
to emerge back into this particular thread !!!!!
Regards
Art


"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Now when I come to your drawing of a vertical I become confused because
the
top end is clearly zero current flow
which presumably is a requirement for resonance
but the inductance suddenly becomes dimension less ...

The coil in sqcoil.gif has dimensions, Art, but the drawing is in two
dimensions, x & z. The y dimension exists normal to the plane of the
drawing. The coil is a square coil in three dimensions. It is 2 feet
wide in the x dimension and 2 feet wide in the y dimension. The coils
are 0.5 feet apart.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Cecil we have severe weather here that it requires a real snow job from me
to emerge back into this particular thread !!!!!

Just remember when Einstein said, "God doesn't roll dice", one of the QED
physicists replied that, "Not only does God roll dice, he rolls them in
the dark." :-) What's wrong with your browser?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil,
Let me show you what I mean about being specific when comparing antennas.
You spoke of a "simple" dipole that was not rotatable that had a high gain
per Eznec
The dipole I believe was for 10 metres with a lobe gain in the order of 10
db,
you didn't say what the minimum gain was which is crucial when comparing
antennas
So I just designed an antenna with a computor program for 160 metres based
around a patent write up of mine which probably will not be issued until
sometime next year.
The beam is rotatable and is at a height of
20 metres. The max gain is 7.35 dbi at 87degrees. Minimum gain at this TOA
is a few db less. Compared to another antenna, and that is what you are
doing, the gain exceeds a Beverage at any angle over 10 degrees even if the
beverage was rotatable.
Unlike the Beverage the antenna can be used for transmitting. Now my antenna
in the backyard has slightly different dimensions because the material used
was available so the gain is down somewhat and ofcourse the ground is not
perfect.
So Cecil, that is what I mean about supplying relevant data tho perhaps it
would be better if I described the antenna
as a very SHORT dipole.
Cecil you now have a SPECIFIC antenna that can be used for comparison
purposes based on keyboard design that is horizontally polarised
Cheers
Art Unwin KB9MZ
PS Nothing wrong with the browser I am just abstaining for a while because
of work time limits at this time.
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Cecil we have severe weather here that it requires a real snow job from
me
to emerge back into this particular thread !!!!!

Just remember when Einstein said, "God doesn't roll dice", one of the QED
physicists replied that, "Not only does God roll dice, he rolls them in
the dark." :-) What's wrong with your browser?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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square coils will not work, the current goes so fast, it can't turn the
corners and it all shoots out the end.

This causes the current at the top of the coil to be less than that at the
bottom.

All clearly covered in the Kraus Cliff Notes.


"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Now when I come to your drawing of a vertical I become confused because
the
top end is clearly zero current flow
which presumably is a requirement for resonance
but the inductance suddenly becomes dimension less ...

The coil in sqcoil.gif has dimensions, Art, but the drawing is in two
dimensions, x & z. The y dimension exists normal to the plane of the
drawing. The coil is a square coil in three dimensions. It is 2 feet
wide in the x dimension and 2 feet wide in the y dimension. The coils
are 0.5 feet apart.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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W4JLE wrote:
square coils will not work, the current goes so fast, it can't turn the
corners and it all shoots out the end.

:-) That's why I have developed an octal coil. I'll post the results this
weekend. The coil is 4.5 turns, 12 inches in diameter, and 22 inches long.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Mark Keith wrote:
"----so far I don`t recollect anyone actually measuring a real world
coil, and finding max current at the top of the coil."

It could be done but it isn`t the ordinary function of loading coils to
work with low current in and high current out.

One could reason that 1/4-wave back from the open-circuit end of an
antenna element a low-impedance high-current point is created. Since the
function of a loading coil is usually to supply the missing part of a
1/4-wave in a shortened element, one would expect to find the
high-current terminal of the coil facing the transmitter and the low
current end of the coil facing the open-circuit end of the element.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI