K7ITM wrote:
If you don't believe there's a solution to the example Keith posted,
you have no right to believe in the results of a measurement with a
vector network analyzer, and you should certainly not trust the
indicated output level of any signal generator.

Methinks you have missed the context of the discussion.
If the model doesn't work for an IC-706 it is not much
use to amateur radio operators. I have already said that
a valid model can be had for a signal generator equipped
with a circulator load. Now do it for an IC-706.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
K7ITM wrote:
If you don't believe there's a solution to the example Keith posted,
you have no right to believe in the results of a measurement with a
vector network analyzer, and you should certainly not trust the
indicated output level of any signal generator.

Methinks you have missed the context of the discussion.
If the model doesn't work for an IC-706 it is not much
use to amateur radio operators. I have already said that
a valid model can be had for a signal generator equipped
with a circulator load.

The only problem with this statement is the assumption that
the result can only be achieved with a circulator. It only
takes a 10 cent resistor. You really should put down your
optics books for a few hours and crack open a basic circuit
theory or transmission line text. Or google, "'lattice
diagrams' reflection". For matching at the source,
only 10 cent resistors are used.

....Keith

Keith Dysart wrote:
The only problem with this statement is the assumption that
the result can only be achieved with a circulator.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I said it could
be achieved with a circulator. I did *NOT* say it could
*only* be achieved with a circulator.

It only takes a 10 cent resistor.

That is naive in the extreme and makes you sound about
ten years old. If a 10 cent resistor would accomplish
that in the real world, nobody would ever buy a
circulator.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Apr 12, 8:20 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Keith Dysart wrote:
The only problem with this statement is the assumption that
the result can only be achieved with a circulator.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I said it could
be achieved with a circulator. I did *NOT* say it could
*only* be achieved with a circulator.

Do you have a list of possible approaches?

Is there any environment in which a 10 cent resistor is the
optimal solution?

It only takes a 10 cent resistor.

That is naive in the extreme and makes you sound about
ten years old. If a 10 cent resistor would accomplish
that in the real world, nobody would ever buy a
circulator.

In my world, the solution is optimized for the problem at
hand: sometimes a circulator, sometimes a resistor,
sometimes feedback and sometimes we just don't care about
matching the source so nothing at all is needed.

....Keith

Keith Dysart wrote:
Do you have a list of possible approaches?

I only use one - I don't allow reflected energy
to become incident upon my IC-706 and IC-756PRO.
That is, by far, the most common configuration
in amateur radio.

Is there any environment in which a 10 cent resistor is the
optimal solution?

To the best of my knowledge, not on the output
of any 100 watt amateur radio transmitter.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Apr 12, 4:50 pm, "Keith Dysart" wrote:
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:

K7ITM wrote:
If you don't believe there's a solution to the example Keith posted,
you have no right to believe in the results of a measurement with a
vector network analyzer, and you should certainly not trust the
indicated output level of any signal generator.

Methinks you have missed the context of the discussion.
If the model doesn't work for an IC-706 it is not much
use to amateur radio operators. I have already said that
a valid model can be had for a signal generator equipped
with a circulator load.

The only problem with this statement is the assumption that
the result can only be achieved with a circulator. It only
takes a 10 cent resistor. You really should put down your
optics books for a few hours and crack open a basic circuit
theory or transmission line text. Or google, "'lattice
diagrams' reflection". For matching at the source,
only 10 cent resistors are used.

...Keith

Well, I'm not sure that's the ONLY problem with it, Keith! ;-)

Whether the model works for me with an IC-706 will have to wait till
someone sends me an operating IC-706 to test. (They should not expect
its return...) But I can assure you that whether it does or not, it's
a VERY useful model to me, and I am an amateur radio operator. I
certainly do NOT accept that the context of this thread is amateur
transmitters--there's been so much basenote drift by this time that
practically anything relating to vector addition of signals seems fair
game.

Cheers,
Tom

PS--know any circulators that work over a range from 10kHz to 6GHz??
Know any that work at 10kHz even?

K7ITM wrote:
I certainly do NOT accept that the context of this
thread is amateur transmitters--

Granted, the thread drifted away from the subject line
which has little to do with transmitters, but amateur
transmitters are what the entire Maxwell-Bruene
brouhaha is all about.

We already have a special case where a signal generator
plus circulator yields everything we need to know. One
more special case doesn't add much even if it works
which is questionable.

We do not have a valid generalized case that covers
amateur radio transmitters. IMO, that's what the
brouhaha is all about.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com