Mike Kaliski wrote:

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:


Commercial microwave ovens have always worked on the principle of
heating
water by being tuned to the vibrational frequency of water molecules.


Hmmm. The first resonant peak of the
water molecule is around 1THz, while at
the microwave operating frequency of
2.45GHz there are no resonances of the
water molecule.

The 2.45GHz frequency has no particular
connection to the resonant frequencies
of candidate food molecules.

Chuck

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Chuck

That would be why returns on 3 Cm marine radar are wiped out in heavy rain
then. I can vouch for the fact that heavy rain and spray can result in 100%
obscuration of ship radar targets.

Aircraft also use radar to detect storms. The severity of the weather ahead
is determined by analysis of the probable size of the water droplets in the
cloud, which affects the level of the radar return.

While water molecules may have an inherent resonance at 1 THz, it is
generally accepted by the scientific community that microwave ovens work by
exciting water molecules, amongst others, in food. I can't recall ever
cooking anything in a microwave that wasn't wet or at least damp. Well I
have tested some bits of plastic for suitability for use at RF, but that
wasn't for eating - and the wife was out!!!

I am happy to accept that there is no direct correlation between the
resonant frequency of a water molecule at 1 THz and a microwave oven
magnetron operating in the Ghz range. However, microwave ovens will heat
even distilled water quite effectively and heating is defined as an increase
in vibrational energy of molecules. So however the process actually works,
some principle of resonance must exist to allow the excitation of the water
molecules to occur. Either that, or microwave ovens actually work by heating
the food with infra red radiation derived using waste heat from the
magnetron and we have all been fooled. :-)

Mike G0ULI

You can look at the stuff in a microwave as a resistive load.

What happens to a resistive load when you feed it RF?

Or even DC, but putting in all the little DC probes so the burrito heats
evenly is a pain in the butt.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Tony Jaa wrote:

...

Another video from youtube; this one is of a "magnetic motor."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffFSq...elated&search=

I am afraid I have already formed an addiction to youtube!

Regards,
JS

"art" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 1 Jun, 11:51, John Smith I wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:

...

We know that e = mc^2 All we need is a method
for conversion of ordinary mass into energy.

Cecil:

Absolutely!

However, I am much more interested in converting energy to matter.

Be nice to have a little machine in the backyard converting sunlight
into gold!

NO, I am NOT talking about gardening marijuana. grin

Regards,
JS

John
DO do you think that Americans are not interested in experimenting any
more because
if anything new comes about that is usefull we can hire the engineers
from India
who have already done the research? Actually it seems that it has gone
beyond that
when you see the outcry against the Gaussian antenna or even boiling
water.
Do Americans really believe really believe that all is known and it is
a waste of time
to experiment? That if you are educated under the American system you
have the
ability to determine before hand what will work and what will not
work?
As an immigrant I was asked by the media the other day do I believe
that immigrants
that do the work that Americans wont do have a different aproach to
life?
I pointed him to read this newsgroup and make up his own mind , but I
also did tell
him to look up history to see how past Empires were lost, but I am not
sure
that he got my point
Art


and just how do you know who on this group was educated where??

maybe those of us educated under the 'American' system have enough common
sense to recognize snake oil when we see it??

A question for you... when was the last time you saw some really new
invention that wasn't eventually proven to be fraud or bad science announced
first on a usenet news group??? or on a tv news show???

Dave wrote:

...
and just how do you know who on this group was educated where??

maybe those of us educated under the 'American' system have enough common
sense to recognize snake oil when we see it??

A question for you... when was the last time you saw some really new
invention that wasn't eventually proven to be fraud or bad science announced
first on a usenet news group??? or on a tv news show???



Did you use that same argument when quantum physics was first being
discussed?

If not, how did you know that "insane phenomenon" was real?

Although we have already developed experimental quantum computers and we
can exploit the phenomenon, we do not understand the underlying physics
to any real degree ...

JS

On 1 Jun, 13:15, "Dave" wrote:
"art" wrote in message

oups.com...





On 1 Jun, 11:51, John Smith I wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:

...

We know that e = mc^2 All we need is a method
for conversion of ordinary mass into energy.

Cecil:

Absolutely!

However, I am much more interested in converting energy to matter.

Be nice to have a little machine in the backyard converting sunlight
into gold!

NO, I am NOT talking about gardening marijuana. grin

Regards,
JS

John
DO do you think that Americans are not interested in experimenting any
more because
if anything new comes about that is usefull we can hire the engineers
from India
who have already done the research? Actually it seems that it has gone
beyond that
when you see the outcry against the Gaussian antenna or even boiling
water.
Do Americans really believe really believe that all is known and it is
a waste of time
to experiment? That if you are educated under the American system you
have the
ability to determine before hand what will work and what will not
work?
As an immigrant I was asked by the media the other day do I believe
that immigrants
that do the work that Americans wont do have a different aproach to
life?
I pointed him to read this newsgroup and make up his own mind , but I
also did tell
him to look up history to see how past Empires were lost, but I am not
sure
that he got my point
Art

and just how do you know who on this group was educated where??

maybe those of us educated under the 'American' system have enough common
sense to recognize snake oil when we see it??

A question for you... when was the last time you saw some really new
invention that wasn't eventually proven to be fraud or bad science announced
first on a usenet news group??? or on a tv news show???- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

David,
I pointed him to this newsgroup because I considered you and others
with your
level of education and aproach to life was typical of the average
american.
If he read thru the this particular thread for instance I would allow
him
to figure out for himself from the educational responses the level of
education.
As for fear of the new or experimentation I suspect he would be as
baffled as I am tho I am sure he can recognise arrogance when he sees
it.
I pointed out to him what some of you see yourselfs as being the best
of America,
frankly I believe I did a diservice to the America of old, and
immigration
of the sciences from other countries is our only hope Check what Roy
has to say
with respect to the education of the masses, he considers himself to
be of
a higher level and more qualified than most that allows him to be a
judge.
Art

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:


That would be why returns on 3 Cm marine radar are wiped out in heavy
rain
then. I can vouch for the fact that heavy rain and spray can result in
100%
obscuration of ship radar targets.

Aircraft also use radar to detect storms. The severity of the weather
ahead
is determined by analysis of the probable size of the water droplets in
the
cloud, which affects the level of the radar return.

While water molecules may have an inherent resonance at 1 THz, it is
generally accepted by the scientific community that microwave ovens work
by
exciting water molecules, amongst others, in food. I can't recall ever
cooking anything in a microwave that wasn't wet or at least damp. Well I
have tested some bits of plastic for suitability for use at RF, but that
wasn't for eating - and the wife was out!!!

I am happy to accept that there is no direct correlation between the
resonant frequency of a water molecule at 1 THz and a microwave oven
magnetron operating in the Ghz range. However, microwave ovens will heat
even distilled water quite effectively and heating is defined as an
increase
in vibrational energy of molecules. So however the process actually
works,
some principle of resonance must exist to allow the excitation of the
water
molecules to occur. Either that, or microwave ovens actually work by
heating
the food with infra red radiation derived using waste heat from the
magnetron and we have all been fooled. :-)



Increased molecular motion certainly
accompanies increased temperature, but
depending on the water's salt content,
the skin depth of water at microwave
oven frequencies is 0.5cm to 4.7cm. So I
guess it is an absorption phenomenon,
rather than resonance. Or, infrared
radiation from the maagnetron! ;-)

This information, BTW, comes from Ron
Schmitt's "Electromagnetics Explained".

Chuck

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Chuck

When I learned about radar it was common practice to break the waveguide and
stick your hand over the transmitter end to see if you could feel any
warmth! If your hand got hot, the magnetron was firing up okay. If you were
of a nervous disposition, then a neon bulb was a sissy substitute for a
hand.

The marine radar sets on my first ship were all Korean War vintage with a 10
Cm set with a standard range of 96 miles - well over the horizon. The
navigators claimed they could spot mountain tops at over 200 miles.

The equipment was all valves and worked for an average of 3 days before each
failure. Usually a 2 to 4 hour fault finding job each time. The most
spectacular failure occured when the 10 Cm radar continued to work
fautlessly through a severe storm before finally packing up when the sun
came out. Eventually the waveguide running up the mast to the scanner was
found to contain over 30 vertical feet of water! The scanner horn had been
holed by a piece of railing torn off the bow in the storm. The metal railing
had flown up 60 feet in the air before hitting the scanner horn and holing
it. Clearing the water and patching the scanner horn with duct tape restored
operation until we docked.

I know that the 10 Cm radar appeared not to have any water heating effects
because the water that poured out of the waveguide was freezing and the
radar had been continuously switched to transmit until shortly before
looking for the fault.

So there is definitely something significant about the 3 Cm wavelengths used
in microwave ovens and interaction with water molecules at that frequency.

Mike G0ULI

Mike Kaliski wrote:
So there is definitely something significant about the 3 Cm wavelengths used
in microwave ovens and interaction with water molecules at that frequency.

From Wikipedia:
"Cooking food with microwaves was discovered by Percy Spencer
while building magnetrons for radar sets at Raytheon. He was
working on an active radar set when he noticed a strange sensation,
and saw that a peanut candy bar he had in his pocket started to melt.
Water, fat, and other substances in the food absorb energy from
the microwaves in a process called dielectric heating. Dipole
rotation is the mechanism normally referred to as dielectric
heating, and is most widely observable in the microwave oven
where it operates most efficiently on liquid water, ..."

I never realized that rotating my dipole was contributing
to global warming. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
I never realized that rotating my dipole was contributing
to global warming. :-)

I never rotate my dipole unless I am alone with the XYL. :-P

JS

On 1 Jun, 13:15, "Dave" wrote:
"art" wrote in message

oups.com...





On 1 Jun, 11:51, John Smith I wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:

...

We know that e = mc^2 All we need is a method
for conversion of ordinary mass into energy.

Cecil:

Absolutely!

However, I am much more interested in converting energy to matter.

Be nice to have a little machine in the backyard converting sunlight
into gold!

NO, I am NOT talking about gardening marijuana. grin

Regards,
JS

John
DO do you think that Americans are not interested in experimenting any
more because
if anything new comes about that is usefull we can hire the engineers
from India
who have already done the research? Actually it seems that it has gone
beyond that
when you see the outcry against the Gaussian antenna or even boiling
water.
Do Americans really believe really believe that all is known and it is
a waste of time
to experiment? That if you are educated under the American system you
have the
ability to determine before hand what will work and what will not
work?
As an immigrant I was asked by the media the other day do I believe
that immigrants
that do the work that Americans wont do have a different aproach to
life?
I pointed him to read this newsgroup and make up his own mind , but I
also did tell
him to look up history to see how past Empires were lost, but I am not
sure
that he got my point
Art

and just how do you know who on this group was educated where??

Are you nuts? Americans stand out so heavily regardless of where in
the
World they are together with the alteration of English.
When you go overseas it is americans who talk the loudest,
why I don't know. They also believe that foreighners cannot
understand English and make fools of themselves talking about
the resident travelers.
The movie The Quiet American was just an a abberation.
I would say however that foreigners should really visit
the Mid West before they form an opinion of America
as the people are so gentlemanly here compared to the big cities
and coastal areas. As far as getting an opinion on your
educational level I am sure that reading your postings
would give a accurate reflection of your education and
your personal 'curtiousness' as I am sure that you are
doing the best that you can every time you put pen
to paper such that it really reflects you and what
you really are.You are doing your best aren't you?
Art



maybe those of us educated under the 'American' system have enough common
sense to recognize snake oil when we see it??

A question for you... when was the last time you saw some really new
invention that wasn't eventually proven to be fraud or bad science announced
first on a usenet news group??? or on a tv news show???- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh come on! People know on the net that all is known and there is
nothing new,
why should I argue with that aproach and who could I convince
otherwise?
Art

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:
So there is definitely something significant about the 3 Cm wavelengths
used
in microwave ovens and interaction with water molecules at that
frequency.

From Wikipedia:
"Cooking food with microwaves was discovered by Percy Spencer
while building magnetrons for radar sets at Raytheon. He was
working on an active radar set when he noticed a strange sensation,
and saw that a peanut candy bar he had in his pocket started to melt.
Water, fat, and other substances in the food absorb energy from
the microwaves in a process called dielectric heating. Dipole
rotation is the mechanism normally referred to as dielectric
heating, and is most widely observable in the microwave oven
where it operates most efficiently on liquid water, ..."

I never realized that rotating my dipole was contributing
to global warming. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil

Thanks for that. I know that a company called Tappan started producing
domestic microwave ovens as early as 1948 in the US. I have a rebranded
model bought new in the UK in 1980 that's still going strong and in daily
use. I had to open it up once when the lamp blew and took out an internal
fuse. Inside the casing was a full circuit diagram with part numbers and
full contact details for service. American engineering, built like a brick
out house and it does what it says on the box. No turntable, just a glass
shelf and power is either on or off. I have heard that some of the original
1948 models are still working and have no reason to disbelieve it.

Now if only everything else could be built to last like this...

Mike G0ULI