1. What do you mean when you state that entangled particles have
"communications"?
2. Entangled particles can not be used to send _information_ at a speed
greater than the speed of light.

If you can show that item 2 above is false, you will become both famous and
rich.

John, N9JG

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
[snip]
One more example: Nothing can travel faster than the
speed of light yet the communications between entangled
particles obviously travels faster than the speed of
light.
[snip]
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

"John, N9JG" wrote in message
et...
1. What do you mean when you state that entangled particles have
"communications"?
2. Entangled particles can not be used to send _information_ at a speed
greater than the speed of light.

If you can show that item 2 above is false, you will become both famous
and
rich.

John, N9JG

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
[snip]
One more example: Nothing can travel faster than the
speed of light yet the communications between entangled
particles obviously travels faster than the speed of
light.
[snip]
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com



John & Cecil

Extract from http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/newtech2.html

The Chiao Group at Berkeley is investigating superluminality. Ryan Frewin,
Renee George, Deborah Paulson have a web page about superluminality, in
which they say: "...

About ten years ago, Steven Chu and Stephen Wong at AT&T Bell Labs in New
Jersey measured superluminal velocities for light pulses traveling through
an absorbing material ...
In 1991, Anedio Ranfagni et al at the National Institute for Research into
Electromagnetic Waves in Florence, Italy measured the speed of propagation
for microwaves through a "forbidden zone" inside square metal w aveguides.
The reported values were initially less than the speed of light, until the
experiment was repeated in 1992 with thicker barriers ...
Also in 1992, Gunter Nimtz and colleagues at the University of Cologne
reported superluminal speeds for microwaves traversing a similar forbidden
region ...
In 1993, the most solid experimental evidence came from Chiao and his
colleagues Aephraim Steinberg and Paul Kwiat at the University of California
at Berkeley. Using the Hong-Ou-Mandel interferometer ... they were able to
measure the tunneling times of visible light. According to Brown, "the
researchers found that the photons that tunneled their way through the
optical filter arrived 1.5 femtoseconds sooner than the ones that traveled
through air. The tunneling photons seemed to have traveled at 1.7 times the
speed of light" ...
Similar experiments by Ferenc Krauss et al at the Technical University in
Vienna in October of 1994 "strongly suggest that as they progressively
increased the thickness of the barrier the tunneling time saturated toward a
maximum value" ...
In March of 1995, at a colloquium in Snowbird, Utah, Nimtz announced that he
had sent a signal across twelve centimeters of space at 4.7 times the speed
of light . The signal was a modulation in the frequency of his microwave
source matching Mozart's 40th Symphony ... Even Chiao and his colleagues
were adamantly opposed to describing Nimtz' work as the sending of a signal
....
Why was the bar of Mozart's symphony not a signal? ... If a wave packet's
shape upon incidence is smooth and well- defined, it is a straightforward
calculation to determine its shape after transmission. Because the final
shape can be mathematically determined ... most scientists would not
consider a smoothly varying function to be a signal. ... Chiao and Steinberg
were quick to point out that Nimtz' symphony was not a signal, but simply a
smoothly varying pulse. .. A sudden change in the shape would still travel
at only light speed, and only a sudden change, according to Chiao, could be
regarded as a signal ... ".

Clearly some things do appear to travel faster than the speed of light in a
vacuum. The jury appears to be out as to whether any practical use can be
made of the phenomenon.

Mike G0ULI

Mike Kaliski wrote:
"John, N9JG" wrote in message
et...
1. What do you mean when you state that entangled particles have
"communications"?
2. Entangled particles can not be used to send _information_ at a speed
greater than the speed of light.

If you can show that item 2 above is false, you will become both famous
and
rich.

John, N9JG

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
[snip]
One more example: Nothing can travel faster than the
speed of light yet the communications between entangled
particles obviously travels faster than the speed of
light.
[snip]
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com


John & Cecil

Extract from http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/newtech2.html

The Chiao Group at Berkeley is investigating superluminality. Ryan Frewin,
Renee George, Deborah Paulson have a web page about superluminality, in
which they say: "...

About ten years ago, Steven Chu and Stephen Wong at AT&T Bell Labs in New
Jersey measured superluminal velocities for light pulses traveling through
an absorbing material ...
In 1991, Anedio Ranfagni et al at the National Institute for Research into
Electromagnetic Waves in Florence, Italy measured the speed of propagation
for microwaves through a "forbidden zone" inside square metal w aveguides.
The reported values were initially less than the speed of light, until the
experiment was repeated in 1992 with thicker barriers ...
Also in 1992, Gunter Nimtz and colleagues at the University of Cologne
reported superluminal speeds for microwaves traversing a similar forbidden
region ...
In 1993, the most solid experimental evidence came from Chiao and his
colleagues Aephraim Steinberg and Paul Kwiat at the University of California
at Berkeley. Using the Hong-Ou-Mandel interferometer ... they were able to
measure the tunneling times of visible light. According to Brown, "the
researchers found that the photons that tunneled their way through the
optical filter arrived 1.5 femtoseconds sooner than the ones that traveled
through air. The tunneling photons seemed to have traveled at 1.7 times the
speed of light" ...
Similar experiments by Ferenc Krauss et al at the Technical University in
Vienna in October of 1994 "strongly suggest that as they progressively
increased the thickness of the barrier the tunneling time saturated toward a
maximum value" ...
In March of 1995, at a colloquium in Snowbird, Utah, Nimtz announced that he
had sent a signal across twelve centimeters of space at 4.7 times the speed
of light . The signal was a modulation in the frequency of his microwave
source matching Mozart's 40th Symphony ... Even Chiao and his colleagues
were adamantly opposed to describing Nimtz' work as the sending of a signal
...
Why was the bar of Mozart's symphony not a signal? ... If a wave packet's
shape upon incidence is smooth and well- defined, it is a straightforward
calculation to determine its shape after transmission. Because the final
shape can be mathematically determined ... most scientists would not
consider a smoothly varying function to be a signal. ... Chiao and Steinberg
were quick to point out that Nimtz' symphony was not a signal, but simply a
smoothly varying pulse. .. A sudden change in the shape would still travel
at only light speed, and only a sudden change, according to Chiao, could be
regarded as a signal ... ".

Clearly some things do appear to travel faster than the speed of light in a
vacuum. The jury appears to be out as to whether any practical use can be
made of the phenomenon.

Mike G0ULI



This was in "evanescent mode", in other words, waveguide or something
similar. Not "free space". So very very very unlikely exceeding the
speed of light in a vacuum. As in it didn't. No laws were broken.

tom
K0TAR

snip
In 1993, the most solid experimental evidence came from Chiao and his
colleagues Aephraim Steinberg and Paul Kwiat at the University of
California
at Berkeley. Using the Hong-Ou-Mandel interferometer ... they were able
to
measure the tunneling times of visible light. According to Brown, "the
researchers found that the photons that tunneled their way through the
optical filter arrived 1.5 femtoseconds sooner than the ones that
traveled
through air. The tunneling photons seemed to have traveled at 1.7 times
the
speed of light" ...
Similar experiments by Ferenc Krauss et al at the Technical University
in
Vienna in October of 1994 "strongly suggest that as they progressively
increased the thickness of the barrier the tunneling time saturated
toward a
maximum value" ...
snip

This was in "evanescent mode", in other words, waveguide or something
similar. Not "free space". So very very very unlikely exceeding the
speed of light in a vacuum. As in it didn't. No laws were broken.

tom
K0TAR

Tom,

The speed of light in air is not vastly different from the speed of light in
a vacuum. If photons were apparently travelling at 1.7 times the speed of
light in air, they clearly must have been exceeding the speed of light in a
vacuum.

This result was observed using visible light. Current theory is usually
quoted as nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vaccum. It
is probably more correct to state that objects with mass cannot exceed the
speed of light in a vacuum. Photons, having no mass, are not necessarily
subject to this rule and seem to be observed travelling at superluminal
velocity under certain very specific conditions. If the photons are
tunnelling and travelling faster than light in a vacuum, it does not
necessarily mean that any laws have been broken.

One way of imagining a way in which this could happen is if a block of
material is energised to a high energy state. Photons are continually fired
into the material and are absorbed one by one with atoms within the
structure absorbing each new photon. At some point, the material becomes
completely saturated and cannot absorb any more photons. When the next
photon hits and is absorbed, a shockwave propogates through the material and
a photon is emitted from the opposite side travelling at the same speed and
in the same direction as the original absorbed photon. Stability is restored
and energy is conserved.

But, it is the shockwave that has propogated faster than the speed of light
and it is not the original photon that entered the material that is emitted.
The emitted photon will contain exactly the same properties as the absorbed
photon and the two would be indistinguishable. So the photon appears to have
been transmitted through the material at faster than light speed, but no
laws have been broken.

A Newtons cradle can help with visualising how this can happen.

Mike G0ULI

Mike Kaliski wrote:


Tom,

The speed of light in air is not vastly different from the speed of light in
a vacuum. If photons were apparently travelling at 1.7 times the speed of
light in air, they clearly must have been exceeding the speed of light in a
vacuum.

This result was observed using visible light. Current theory is usually
quoted as nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vaccum. It
is probably more correct to state that objects with mass cannot exceed the
speed of light in a vacuum. Photons, having no mass, are not necessarily
subject to this rule and seem to be observed travelling at superluminal
velocity under certain very specific conditions. If the photons are
tunnelling and travelling faster than light in a vacuum, it does not
necessarily mean that any laws have been broken.

One way of imagining a way in which this could happen is if a block of
material is energised to a high energy state. Photons are continually fired
into the material and are absorbed one by one with atoms within the
structure absorbing each new photon. At some point, the material becomes
completely saturated and cannot absorb any more photons. When the next
photon hits and is absorbed, a shockwave propogates through the material and
a photon is emitted from the opposite side travelling at the same speed and
in the same direction as the original absorbed photon. Stability is restored
and energy is conserved.

But, it is the shockwave that has propogated faster than the speed of light
and it is not the original photon that entered the material that is emitted.
The emitted photon will contain exactly the same properties as the absorbed
photon and the two would be indistinguishable. So the photon appears to have
been transmitted through the material at faster than light speed, but no
laws have been broken.

A Newtons cradle can help with visualising how this can happen.

Mike G0ULI


Mike,

You had me fooled. It appeared that you might actually know something.
But that response bent the needle on my bull**** meter.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:


Tom,

The speed of light in air is not vastly different from the speed of
light in
a vacuum. If photons were apparently travelling at 1.7 times the speed
of
light in air, they clearly must have been exceeding the speed of light
in a
vacuum.

This result was observed using visible light. Current theory is usually
quoted as nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vaccum.
It
is probably more correct to state that objects with mass cannot exceed
the
speed of light in a vacuum. Photons, having no mass, are not necessarily
subject to this rule and seem to be observed travelling at superluminal
velocity under certain very specific conditions. If the photons are
tunnelling and travelling faster than light in a vacuum, it does not
necessarily mean that any laws have been broken.

One way of imagining a way in which this could happen is if a block of
material is energised to a high energy state. Photons are continually
fired
into the material and are absorbed one by one with atoms within the
structure absorbing each new photon. At some point, the material becomes
completely saturated and cannot absorb any more photons. When the next
photon hits and is absorbed, a shockwave propogates through the material
and
a photon is emitted from the opposite side travelling at the same speed
and
in the same direction as the original absorbed photon. Stability is
restored
and energy is conserved.

But, it is the shockwave that has propogated faster than the speed of
light
and it is not the original photon that entered the material that is
emitted.
The emitted photon will contain exactly the same properties as the
absorbed
photon and the two would be indistinguishable. So the photon appears to
have
been transmitted through the material at faster than light speed, but no
laws have been broken.

A Newtons cradle can help with visualising how this can happen.

Mike G0ULI


Mike,

You had me fooled. It appeared that you might actually know something.
But that response bent the needle on my bull**** meter.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Gene

I don't claim that this is what does happen, merely propose it as an aid to
visualising how the observed results could possibly arise without
necessarily violating any of the currently accepted laws of physics. Clearly
the experimental results demonstrate something odd is happening in the
laboratory and photons are apparently exceeding light speed, which they
shouldn't be able to do in light of current knowledge.

I think it must have been a mention of Newton together with quantum
phenomena that upsets people :-)

Regards

Mike G0ULI

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 02:34:10 GMT, Gene Fuller
wrote:



A Newtons cradle can help with visualising how this can happen.

Mike G0ULI


Mike,

You had me fooled. It appeared that you might actually know something.
But that response bent the needle on my bull**** meter.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

FWIW:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/cradle.htm

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:


Tom,

The speed of light in air is not vastly different from the speed of light
in
a vacuum. If photons were apparently travelling at 1.7 times the speed of
light in air, they clearly must have been exceeding the speed of light in
a
vacuum.

This result was observed using visible light. Current theory is usually
quoted as nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vaccum.
It
is probably more correct to state that objects with mass cannot exceed
the
speed of light in a vacuum. Photons, having no mass, are not necessarily
subject to this rule and seem to be observed travelling at superluminal
velocity under certain very specific conditions. If the photons are
tunnelling and travelling faster than light in a vacuum, it does not
necessarily mean that any laws have been broken.

One way of imagining a way in which this could happen is if a block of
material is energised to a high energy state. Photons are continually
fired
into the material and are absorbed one by one with atoms within the
structure absorbing each new photon. At some point, the material becomes
completely saturated and cannot absorb any more photons. When the next
photon hits and is absorbed, a shockwave propogates through the material
and
a photon is emitted from the opposite side travelling at the same speed
and
in the same direction as the original absorbed photon. Stability is
restored
and energy is conserved.

But, it is the shockwave that has propogated faster than the speed of
light
and it is not the original photon that entered the material that is
emitted.
The emitted photon will contain exactly the same properties as the
absorbed
photon and the two would be indistinguishable. So the photon appears to
have
been transmitted through the material at faster than light speed, but no
laws have been broken.

A Newtons cradle can help with visualising how this can happen.

Mike G0ULI


Mike,

You had me fooled. It appeared that you might actually know something. But
that response bent the needle on my bull**** meter.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Actually that response is very credable, It is analogous to what happens
when electrons travel in a wire. Put an electron in one end of a wire and
one pops out the other end almost instantaneously even though the actual
speed of electrons flowing ththrough the wire is very, very slow.

Jimmie

Jimmie D wrote:
"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
Mike Kaliski wrote:

[snip]


One way of imagining a way in which this could happen is if a block of
material is energised to a high energy state. Photons are continually
fired
into the material and are absorbed one by one with atoms within the
structure absorbing each new photon. At some point, the material becomes
completely saturated and cannot absorb any more photons. When the next
photon hits and is absorbed, a shockwave propogates through the material
and
a photon is emitted from the opposite side travelling at the same speed
and
in the same direction as the original absorbed photon. Stability is
restored
and energy is conserved.

But, it is the shockwave that has propogated faster than the speed of
light
and it is not the original photon that entered the material that is
emitted.
The emitted photon will contain exactly the same properties as the
absorbed
photon and the two would be indistinguishable. So the photon appears to
have
been transmitted through the material at faster than light speed, but no
laws have been broken.

A Newtons cradle can help with visualising how this can happen.

Mike G0ULI

Mike,

You had me fooled. It appeared that you might actually know something. But
that response bent the needle on my bull**** meter.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Actually that response is very credable, It is analogous to what happens
when electrons travel in a wire. Put an electron in one end of a wire and
one pops out the other end almost instantaneously even though the actual
speed of electrons flowing ththrough the wire is very, very slow.

Jimmie


Jimmie,

No particular argument about electrons in a wire. However, the stuff
proposed by Mike bears little resemblance to the wire.

How about:

Atoms absorbing photons one by one, i.e. one per atom in a solid?
Doesn't match anything I have ever learned.

Material becomes saturated with photons? What is this, a bag of marbles?

Shockwave propagates faster than speed of light? (Yes, I am familiar
with Cerenkov radiation. Not interesting in this context.)

Emitted photons contains exactly the same properties as the absorbed
photon? How do they get absorbed yet remember everything? How do they
know when and where they should pop out the other side?

Every part of that proposed explanation was nonsense.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Mike Kaliski wrote:
snip
In 1993, the most solid experimental evidence came from Chiao and his
colleagues Aephraim Steinberg and Paul Kwiat at the University of
California
at Berkeley. Using the Hong-Ou-Mandel interferometer ... they were able
to
measure the tunneling times of visible light. According to Brown, "the
researchers found that the photons that tunneled their way through the
optical filter arrived 1.5 femtoseconds sooner than the ones that
traveled
through air. The tunneling photons seemed to have traveled at 1.7 times
the
speed of light" ...
Similar experiments by Ferenc Krauss et al at the Technical University
in
Vienna in October of 1994 "strongly suggest that as they progressively
increased the thickness of the barrier the tunneling time saturated
toward a
maximum value" ...
snip

This was in "evanescent mode", in other words, waveguide or something
similar. Not "free space". So very very very unlikely exceeding the
speed of light in a vacuum. As in it didn't. No laws were broken.

tom
K0TAR

Tom,

The speed of light in air is not vastly different from the speed of light in
a vacuum. If photons were apparently travelling at 1.7 times the speed of
light in air, they clearly must have been exceeding the speed of light in a
vacuum.

This result was observed using visible light. Current theory is usually
quoted as nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vaccum. It
is probably more correct to state that objects with mass cannot exceed the
speed of light in a vacuum. Photons, having no mass, are not necessarily
subject to this rule and seem to be observed travelling at superluminal
velocity under certain very specific conditions. If the photons are
tunnelling and travelling faster than light in a vacuum, it does not
necessarily mean that any laws have been broken.

One way of imagining a way in which this could happen is if a block of
material is energised to a high energy state. Photons are continually fired
into the material and are absorbed one by one with atoms within the
structure absorbing each new photon. At some point, the material becomes
completely saturated and cannot absorb any more photons. When the next
photon hits and is absorbed, a shockwave propogates through the material and
a photon is emitted from the opposite side travelling at the same speed and
in the same direction as the original absorbed photon. Stability is restored
and energy is conserved.

But, it is the shockwave that has propogated faster than the speed of light
and it is not the original photon that entered the material that is emitted.
The emitted photon will contain exactly the same properties as the absorbed
photon and the two would be indistinguishable. So the photon appears to have
been transmitted through the material at faster than light speed, but no
laws have been broken.

A Newtons cradle can help with visualising how this can happen.

Mike G0ULI




Keep smoking, it must be good stuff.

tom
K0TAR