Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:

Could it be that the human auditory system is not
linear?


No. Humans had to evolve to incorporate a non linear response to sound
when the electronics manufacturers started supplying ONLY non linear
potentiometers for audio equipment use.

This mutation, which is now the norm, was completely unknown before the
start of the twentieth century.

We, here at Densa Labs, call it Darwinian Decibelism



mike

On Jul 7, 9:56 pm, "Dana" wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in om...

Do you understand that a DSB signal *is* AM?
-
- - So all the AM broadcasters are wasting money by
- - generating a carrier?
-
- How did you jump to that conclusion.

Somewhere between the Original Post #1
and the 236 Replies to date. ~ RHF

"Bob Myers" hath wroth:

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in message
.. .

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant). If there were
mixing, you would be able to hear the beat note when one generates two
ultrasonic tones. I belch 25KHz and 26KHz from two transducers, by
our logic, air mixing would create a 1KHz beat note. It doesn't and
you hear nothing.

What seems to be the problem here is the model of the human ear is not
what one would assume. It is NOT a broadband detector. The cochlea
cilia (hairs) resonate at individual frequencies. Each one resonantes
at only one frequency (and possibly some sub-harmonics). Therefore,
the human ear model is a collection of narrow band filters and
detectors. Unless the two frequencies involved both cause a single
cilia to simultaneously vibrate at both frequencies, there isn't going
to be any mixing. Each detector can be individually quite non-linear,
but as long as it vibrates at only one frequency, there isn't going to
be any mixing.

Meanwhile, I would greatly appreciate it if everyone would kindly trim
quotations. This thread is becoming difficult to read. Thanks.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


--snippety-snip--

You said you are a physicist/engineer.
What does "linear" mean?

Let's not get too far off the subject here. We were discussing whether
the "tuning beat" that you use to tune a musical instrument involved a
nonlinear process (ie. "modulation").

Then linearity is at the core of the matter.
What does "linear" (or "nonlinear") mean to you?

OK, if you insist -- *in this case* it means "linear enough to not
produce IM products of significant amplitude".

Good enough.
Then spectrum analyzers and the human auditory
system are not linear.
Stay with me here.


I said that it does not, and that
it could be detected by instrumentation which was proveably linear
(i.e.
not "perfectly" linear, because that's not required, but certainly
linear enough to discount the requirement for "modulation").

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

As the phase of the two nearly equal waves move past each other, there
is simple vector summation which varies the amplitude.

Consider two sine waves of precisely the same frequency, where one of
them is adjustable in phase -- use a goniometer, for instance. Use a set
of resistors to sum the two signals, and observe the summing point with
a 'scope or a loudspeaker. By altering the phase of one source, you can
get any amplitude you want from zero up to twice the amplitude of either
one.

Now just twiddle that phase knob around and around as fast as you can.

You've just slightly altered the instantaneous frequency of one of the
generators (but only while you twiddle), and accomplished pretty much
the same effect as listening to the beat between two guitar strings at
nearly zero frequency offset. With no nonlinear processes in sight.

Isaac

You put some effort into that. I give you
credit for that.

The socratic thing isn't working, so here
you go.

Is an envelope detector linear? The answer is no.
But how can that be? If you put in a sine wave of
amplitude A you get A volts out (assuming its gain is 1).
If you put in a sine wave of amplitude 2A and you
get 2A volts out. Linear, right?
Now you put in a sine wave of amplitude A at
455 kHz plus a sine wave of amplitude A at
456 kHz. (Consider the envelope detector
of a typical AM radio here.) What do you get out? A
sine wave of amplitude A/2 at 1 kHz. Intermodulation.
An envelope detector is not linear. No envelope/
amplitude detector is linear.

The typical envelope detector is a diode rectifier
followed by a lowpass filter.
The diode rectifier is obviously nonlinear and
gives you all sorts of intermoduation. With a
single sine wave input you get a DC term and
various harmonics of the sine wave. The lowpass
filter filters out all the harmonics and leaves
the DC.
If you put in two sine waves (assuming their
frequencies are above the cutoff of the subsequent
lowpass and their difference is within the
lowpass) again the diode nonlinearity results
in intermodulation. You get a DC component,
the difference frequency, the sum, and various
higher frequencies. The filter leaves only the
difference frequency and the DC. In an AM
receiver the DC is subsequently blocked too.

Do you see how this applies to spectrum analyzers
and the human auditory system?

In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


--snippety-snip--

You said you are a physicist/engineer.
What does "linear" mean?

Let's not get too far off the subject here. We were discussing whether
the "tuning beat" that you use to tune a musical instrument involved a
nonlinear process (ie. "modulation").

Then linearity is at the core of the matter.
What does "linear" (or "nonlinear") mean to you?

OK, if you insist -- *in this case* it means "linear enough to not
produce IM products of significant amplitude".

Good enough.
Then spectrum analyzers and the human auditory
system are not linear.
Stay with me here.


I said that it does not, and that
it could be detected by instrumentation which was proveably linear
(i.e.
not "perfectly" linear, because that's not required, but certainly
linear enough to discount the requirement for "modulation").

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

As the phase of the two nearly equal waves move past each other, there
is simple vector summation which varies the amplitude.

Consider two sine waves of precisely the same frequency, where one of
them is adjustable in phase -- use a goniometer, for instance. Use a set
of resistors to sum the two signals, and observe the summing point with
a 'scope or a loudspeaker. By altering the phase of one source, you can
get any amplitude you want from zero up to twice the amplitude of either
one.

Now just twiddle that phase knob around and around as fast as you can.

You've just slightly altered the instantaneous frequency of one of the
generators (but only while you twiddle), and accomplished pretty much
the same effect as listening to the beat between two guitar strings at
nearly zero frequency offset. With no nonlinear processes in sight.

Isaac

You put some effort into that. I give you
credit for that.

The socratic thing isn't working, so here
you go.

I would appreciate it if you would take the time to list *in detail* any
errors in what I wrote. If it "isn't working", I need to know why,
because I don't like to be confused about things.

Is an envelope detector linear? The answer is no.

That's correct, and I'm well aware of it, but so what?

--dissertation on how an envelope detector works snipped--

Do you see how this applies to spectrum analyzers
and the human auditory system?

Sure. But

1) It is possible -- if not practical -- to build a "detectorless" (in
the nonlinear process sense) spectrum analyzer, and

2) None of it is even remotely significant to the subject at hand.

Here it is again: the "beat" one hears when tuning a guitar or other
instrument does *not* require any nonlinear process for its production.
Period.

Isaac

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Bob Myers" hath wroth:

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in message
.. .

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

--big ol' snip--

When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is
modulated

The questions I posed were not about AM. The
subject could have been viewed as DSB but that
wasn't the specific intent either.

You should take some time to more carefully frame your questions.

Do you understand that a DSB signal *is* AM?

So all the AM broadcasters are wasting money by
generating a carrier?

Of course not. They're saving you (and everybody else) money by allowing
simple receiver designs -- and that was very important in the 1920's.

Isaac

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in message
...
For the simple reason that there isn't actually a "tone" involved -
in other words, there is no actual signal at the difference frequency.
There can't be, since there is no "mixing" (multiplication) of the
two original tones.

There is no multiplication of 1000 Hz and 1005 Hz
either, is there? Why don't you hear 1000 Hz and
1005 Hz rather than a single tone varying in amplitude?

Because you can't distinguish two tones as separate tones
if they are close enough together in frequency, due to the
way in which the frequency-discrimination process in human
hearing operates.


Could it be that the human auditory system is not
linear?

There are a number of ways in which the human auditory
system is not linear; it's simply that these are not the dominant
cause of the perception of audible "beats."

Bob M.

isw hath wroth:

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

What am I suppose to look for? I appreciate your recommended research
project, but frankly, I don't care what happens inside a high powered
horn loudspeaker. I prefer to stay fairly on topic about the original
allegation that mixing somehow occurs in open air, which is not true.

Incidentally, if mixing did occur in open air or inside the ear, you
would not be able to comfortably listen to hi-fi music, as all you
would hear would be intermodulation products.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air.

Nor did I say there was. The phenomenon of interference
between two compression waves in a given medium is not
an example of "mixing."

of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant). If there were
mixing, you would be able to hear the beat note when one generates two
ultrasonic tones. I belch 25KHz and 26KHz from two transducers, by
our logic, air mixing would create a 1KHz beat note. It doesn't and
you hear nothing.

That was exactly my point. Please read ALL responses I've
made re this topic.

What seems to be the problem here is the model of the human ear is not
what one would assume. It is NOT a broadband detector. The cochlea
cilia (hairs) resonate at individual frequencies. Each one resonantes
at only one frequency (and possibly some sub-harmonics). Therefore,
the human ear model is a collection of narrow band filters and
detectors. Unless the two frequencies involved both cause a single
cilia to simultaneously vibrate at both frequencies, there isn't going
to be any mixing. Each detector can be individually quite non-linear,
but as long as it vibrates at only one frequency, there isn't going to
be any mixing.

This is also a point I noted earlier in this thread.

Bob M.