"Bob Myers" hath wroth:

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in message
.. .

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant). If there were
mixing, you would be able to hear the beat note when one generates two
ultrasonic tones. I belch 25KHz and 26KHz from two transducers, by
our logic, air mixing would create a 1KHz beat note. It doesn't and
you hear nothing.

What seems to be the problem here is the model of the human ear is not
what one would assume. It is NOT a broadband detector. The cochlea
cilia (hairs) resonate at individual frequencies. Each one resonantes
at only one frequency (and possibly some sub-harmonics). Therefore,
the human ear model is a collection of narrow band filters and
detectors. Unless the two frequencies involved both cause a single
cilia to simultaneously vibrate at both frequencies, there isn't going
to be any mixing. Each detector can be individually quite non-linear,
but as long as it vibrates at only one frequency, there isn't going to
be any mixing.

Meanwhile, I would greatly appreciate it if everyone would kindly trim
quotations. This thread is becoming difficult to read. Thanks.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Bob Myers" hath wroth:

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in message
.. .

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

isw hath wroth:

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

What am I suppose to look for? I appreciate your recommended research
project, but frankly, I don't care what happens inside a high powered
horn loudspeaker. I prefer to stay fairly on topic about the original
allegation that mixing somehow occurs in open air, which is not true.

Incidentally, if mixing did occur in open air or inside the ear, you
would not be able to comfortably listen to hi-fi music, as all you
would hear would be intermodulation products.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
isw hath wroth:

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

What am I suppose to look for? I appreciate your recommended research
project, but frankly, I don't care what happens inside a high powered
horn loudspeaker. I prefer to stay fairly on topic about the original
allegation that mixing somehow occurs in open air, which is not true.

Incidentally, if mixing did occur in open air or inside the ear, you
would not be able to comfortably listen to hi-fi music, as all you
would hear would be intermodulation products.

Yes everything would become ultra sonici

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

isw hath wroth:

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

What am I suppose to look for?

Information about the nonlinearity of air; what else? You said
"compression of air is very linear", but there are situations in
acoustics where it is not.

Isaac

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:12:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

isw hath wroth:

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

What am I suppose to look for? I appreciate your recommended research
project, but frankly, I don't care what happens inside a high powered
horn loudspeaker. I prefer to stay fairly on topic about the original
allegation that mixing somehow occurs in open air, which is not true.

---
That's not true. The original allegation was mine, and was that
since the ear is a device with an "output" which doesn't change
linearly with linearly changing input amplitudes, it's a non-linear
device, is incapable of _not_ producing harmonics and heterodynes
and, as such, is where the mixing occurs.

My contention was that zero-beat was the difference frequency
between two input tones close to unison, and I still maintain that's
true and that that difference frequency is in there. However, your
contention that zero-beat is the result of the vector summation of
two tones close to unison is also valid, since a non-linear detector
is capable of doing that summation well enough to allow that be the
dominant phenomenon as evidenced by the fact that the ear is
incapable of directly detecting (say) a 1Hz tone but is fully
capable of hearing the 1Hz amplitude warble which would result from
the vector addition of the two tones.
---

Incidentally, if mixing did occur in open air or inside the ear, you
would not be able to comfortably listen to hi-fi music, as all you
would hear would be intermodulation products.

---
_All_ you would hear?

That's grossly untrue. What do you think would happen to the
_played_ notes?

They'd all disappear in a cacophony of chaos just because some
lower-level cross-products were being produced?

Nonsense.

In fact, contrary to what you may believe, the ear _is_ a non-linear
detector and, consequently, _cannot_ help but heterodyne its inputs.

That's why, after thousands of years of experimenting with what
notes sound good when they're played together and which notes don't,
music is written the way it is.

Something else you may not be aware of is that musical instruments
are inherently non-linear and, as such, will generate harmonics of
any fundamental notes played on them and heterodynes if two or more
notes are played simultaneously.


--
JF

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Bob Myers" hath wroth:

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in message
.. .

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

Red herring.

In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Bob Myers" hath wroth:

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote in message
.. .

No nonlinearity is necessary in order to hear
a beat?
Where does the beat come from?

An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air. compression
of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant).

In general, that's true, but take a look at what happens in the throats
of high-powered horn loudspeakers. You can find info in e.g. "Acoustics"
by Beranek.

Isaac

Red herring.

It's important to know when a statement like: "There's no mixing
happening in the air. compression of air is very linear" is nearly
correct (because it's never precisely correct), and when it's really
pretty incorrect. You can call that a "red herring" if you like; others
might call it "knowing what you're talking about".

Isaac

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air.

Nor did I say there was. The phenomenon of interference
between two compression waves in a given medium is not
an example of "mixing."

of air is very linear (Boyles Law or PV=constant). If there were
mixing, you would be able to hear the beat note when one generates two
ultrasonic tones. I belch 25KHz and 26KHz from two transducers, by
our logic, air mixing would create a 1KHz beat note. It doesn't and
you hear nothing.

That was exactly my point. Please read ALL responses I've
made re this topic.

What seems to be the problem here is the model of the human ear is not
what one would assume. It is NOT a broadband detector. The cochlea
cilia (hairs) resonate at individual frequencies. Each one resonantes
at only one frequency (and possibly some sub-harmonics). Therefore,
the human ear model is a collection of narrow band filters and
detectors. Unless the two frequencies involved both cause a single
cilia to simultaneously vibrate at both frequencies, there isn't going
to be any mixing. Each detector can be individually quite non-linear,
but as long as it vibrates at only one frequency, there isn't going to
be any mixing.

This is also a point I noted earlier in this thread.

Bob M.

"Bob Myers" hath wroth:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .
An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and destructive
interference between two sound waves in air. Look at a pictorial
representation (in the time domain) of the sum of sine waves,of similar
amplitudes, one at, say, 1000 Hz and the other at 1005, and you'll
see it.

Bob M.

I beg to differ. There's no mixing happening in the air.

Nor did I say there was. The phenomenon of interference
between two compression waves in a given medium is not
an example of "mixing."

You didn't say that. You that a beat note would be produced. From
your posting at:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.basics/msg/f18c6dfefbd55a82
"An audible beat tone is produced by the constructive and
destructive interference between two sound waves in air."

That's wrong. There's no audible beat note produced in the air.

You can demonstrate it to yourself with a suitable audio spectrum
analyzer and tone generators. I recommend "Visual Analyzer 8"
http://digilander.libero.it/hsoft/
Generate two sine waves at any frequencies. Use a cheap microphone to
pickup the audio and display it with the audio SA. You won't see any
sums, differences, or intermodulation products unless you over drive
the microphone or try to produce the tones from a single loudspeaker.

Kindly supply a suitable correction or explanation. I'll gladly
entertain the possibility that I'm wrong.

That was exactly my point. Please read ALL responses I've
made re this topic.

My appologies for not reading all of the 269 posting to this thread.
The thread is a classic case of topic drift. I though I would check
the topic de jure and found your posting.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558