RadioBanter - BPL strikes another win ...

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BPL strikes another win ...

Owen Duffy wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote in
:

...
want), or the FCC will solve the problem with a regulatory change in
favor of the ones with the money, or a little baksheesh will change

A solution in the stroke of a pen.

It is the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.

Money is Honey, my little sonny, and a rich man's joke is always funny.

Owen, I prescribe 2 weeks or R and R for you and Roy. Skepticism is
healthy, but a descendence past pessimism into gloom is not healthy.

Beer and chips for everyone, and the floggings will continue until
morale improves. ;^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

BPL strikes another win ...

Michael Coslo wrote:

...
Owen, I prescribe 2 weeks or R and R for you and Roy. Skepticism is
healthy, but a descendence past pessimism into gloom is not healthy.
...
- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

I'd say Owen, and especially Roy, are right on. If you must escape
gloom at the price of ignoring truth, how then do you expect anything to
get better. Lady justice might be required to wear a blind fold (these
days she peeks into wallets), Joe Blow public needs to have his/her eyes
wide open!

With the new 700Mhz freqs in the process of "arrangement" so that the
BIG MONEY telcos get 'em and the telcos remain in control of expensive
voice/data lines, and are allowed price control and use control, BPL is
a sure to be attempted as an escape route.

Now you can fight this issue anyway you choose--but the real answer is
to attack the beast in the heart, unfortunately the telcos are still one
particularly ugly, brazen and large dragon! And of course, as Roy
pointed out, these telcos are under the protection of corrupt,
self-serving public servants who oppose the will of their masters (Joe
Blow public.)

Now, run and hide from those fact, or not ...

Regards,
JS

BPL strikes another win ...

John Smith I wrote in
:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

...
Rocks break swords. Any system that leaks RF in one direction will
leak it both ways.

And mice scare elephants, but for no good reason and little
consequence ...

When it's a few milliwatts of BPL up against an induced signal from a
kilowatt transmitter, then the mouse is the BPL.

And, according to the regulations, if I have to run the full legal limit
to be heard over the din, then it's legitimate.

Of course in a plutocracy like the Benighted States of America, whoever
has the most bucks makes the final policy and then hires state-paih thugs
to enforce it.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

BPL strikes another win ...

Dave Oldridge wrote:

...

You need a good book on digital error correction algorithms in digital
communications.

Unless you have constructed a real rf jammer (white noise really), BPL
will eat up any legitimate amateur communications you can throw at it
.... however, rumors do prevail, like the one about the tin foil hat.

Regards,
JS

BPL strikes another win ...

If BPL is in this area, it's going to effect me whether I transmit or
not,
if it trashes my receiver.
It's not naive. I just don't care what they think. I think it's a
lousy
system, they approved it, and now they are going to have to live
with the problems that are sure to come up. I'm not going to be
changing my operation any time soon.
===================================
Here in the UK BPL (or PLC =Power Line Communication as it is called
here) is not an issue since ADSL via telphone line) is sufficiently
developed be it not everywhere at a 2Mbits/sec or higher speed (as yet).

I have followed ARRL's involvment in 'fighting BPL' and noticed they
have tested in/around their HQ a Motorola BPL system that apparently
does NOT interfere with HF comms . Other BPL systems are giving a lot
of problems .
So there seem to be purely technical issues with BPL as well.
Also it seems to be very doubtful that BPL will be viable as a cost
effective HS comms system considering other more viable methods like
fibre or community satellite/high power Wifi systems ,the latter
particularly promising for rural communities.

Here in the north of Scotland HV pylons ( carry trunk fibre optic cable
Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

BPL strikes another win ...

John Smith I wrote in news:fa4i2a$jve$1
@news.albasani.net:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

...

You need a good book on digital error correction algorithms in digital
communications.

Unless you have constructed a real rf jammer (white noise really), BPL
will eat up any legitimate amateur communications you can throw at it
... however, rumors do prevail, like the one about the tin foil hat.

So how is it gonna eat up having its receiver saturated? I'm pretty
familiar with digital comms and, with the exception of some pretty slow
speed stuff designed for weak signal work, most of it is not very good
unless you have a really solid signal-to-noise ratio. I'm just saying
that if it's getting out to my antenna that loud, then my kilowatt is
gonna have a fair chance at saturating the thing's receiver. And the
more noise they make, the more I'm apt to have to use the kilowatt to
shout over them.

Of course in our current enforcement situation here, I'd probably simply
be told to stand down and have to go to great legal lengths to appeal the
ruling.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

BPL strikes another win ...

Dave Oldridge wrote:
John Smith I wrote in news:fa4i2a$jve$1
@news.albasani.net:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

...
You need a good book on digital error correction algorithms in digital
communications.

Unless you have constructed a real rf jammer (white noise really), BPL
will eat up any legitimate amateur communications you can throw at it
... however, rumors do prevail, like the one about the tin foil hat.

So how is it gonna eat up having its receiver saturated? I'm pretty
familiar with digital comms and, with the exception of some pretty slow
speed stuff designed for weak signal work, most of it is not very good
unless you have a really solid signal-to-noise ratio. I'm just saying
that if it's getting out to my antenna that loud, then my kilowatt is
gonna have a fair chance at saturating the thing's receiver. And the
more noise they make, the more I'm apt to have to use the kilowatt to
shout over them.

Of course in our current enforcement situation here, I'd probably simply
be told to stand down and have to go to great legal lengths to appeal the
ruling.

Digital is not analog, when adverse conditions have made an analog
signal totally unusable, a digital signal, most likely, may still be
achieving 100% error free data transfer--it is just the nature of the beast.

The "intelligence" of the software controlling the data transmission(s)
is the single most important factor--as logic would dictate. Even under
almost total saturation (it would be virtually impossible for 100%
saturation, baring hooking the kw+ rig directly to the power lines) of
the BPL signal some type of heterodyne would be occurring with the KW
signal. Since digital is simply detecting an ON/OFF signal, in
conjunction with spacing/length of these, an on/off signal is still
detectable in this heterodyne--given the software is aware and capable
of reading this signal and switching "modes" to do so, no harm is done
to the data ... and without doubt, new error correction methods will
also develop as BPL grows and hf-rf-terrorist-hams challenge this system
.... LOL!

Digital is magnitudes more robust than analog, again owing to the very
nature of the beast and the simplicity of the on/off, pulse width,
timing nature of the signal.

Regards,
JS

BPL strikes another win ...

John Smith I wrote:

...

Or, to sum up the previous post, digital, like cw, will get through when
nothing else will ... or, have you ever copied cw as a heterodyne on
some key clowns jamming signal?

Regards,
JS

BPL strikes another win ...

John Smith I wrote in
:

Dave Oldridge wrote:
John Smith I wrote in news:fa4i2a$jve$1
@news.albasani.net:

Dave Oldridge wrote:

...
You need a good book on digital error correction algorithms in
digital communications.

Unless you have constructed a real rf jammer (white noise really),
BPL will eat up any legitimate amateur communications you can throw
at it ... however, rumors do prevail, like the one about the tin
foil hat.

So how is it gonna eat up having its receiver saturated? I'm pretty
familiar with digital comms and, with the exception of some pretty
slow speed stuff designed for weak signal work, most of it is not
very good unless you have a really solid signal-to-noise ratio. I'm
just saying that if it's getting out to my antenna that loud, then my
kilowatt is gonna have a fair chance at saturating the thing's
receiver. And the more noise they make, the more I'm apt to have to
use the kilowatt to shout over them.

Of course in our current enforcement situation here, I'd probably
simply be told to stand down and have to go to great legal lengths to
appeal the ruling.

Digital is not analog, when adverse conditions have made an analog
signal totally unusable, a digital signal, most likely, may still be
achieving 100% error free data transfer--it is just the nature of the
beast.

Actually, I've found that, except for very slow data rate stuff, digital
signals require a BETTER signal-to-noise than analog to be readable. And
there is no partial readability with most of the commercially-used
digital modes. That is to say you either have error-free transmission or
none whatever.

The "intelligence" of the software controlling the data
transmission(s) is the single most important factor--as logic would
dictate. Even under almost total saturation (it would be virtually
impossible for 100% saturation, baring hooking the kw+ rig directly to
the power lines) of the BPL signal some type of heterodyne would be
occurring with the KW signal. Since digital is simply detecting an
ON/OFF signal, in conjunction with spacing/length of these, an on/off
signal is still detectable in this heterodyne--given the software is
aware and capable of reading this signal and switching "modes" to do
so, no harm is done to the data ... and without doubt, new error
correction methods will also develop as BPL grows and
hf-rf-terrorist-hams challenge this system ... LOL!

You cannot recover data with a modem whose input transistor is biased off
by rectified RF. I know this. I've tried it.

Digital is magnitudes more robust than analog, again owing to the very
nature of the beast and the simplicity of the on/off, pulse width,
timing nature of the signal.

The only real advantage digital has is its error-correction algorithms.
Those can do very good work when they actually have enough data to work
with. But once the data recovery by the the very ANALOG device that is
receiving the signals drops below their threshold, then the recovery
becomes terrible. Some modems are better than others. My old Telebit
19.2K could suck 1200 baud recovery out of a phone line you couldn't talk
on. But give it a couple of volts of RF in the mix and it would drop
stone cold dead. And BPL has the "disadvantage" of not being able to
filter our frequencies AND use them at the same time. At worst, I'd
drive the BPL machinery to other parts of the band from where I was
working....

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667