"AI4QJ" wrote in
:


"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message
...

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
et...
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way
to "no power in standing waves" and where all those electrons,
photons and other antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

There's plenty of energy in those standing waves, Yuri,
existing as "reactive power" as defined by the IEEE
Dictionary (units of VARS from power engineering).

When any energy is extracted from a standing wave and
used to heat the Hustler coil, it automatically becomes a
traveling wave with the voltage and current in phase, not
a standing wave with the voltage and current 90 degrees out
of phase. Your Hustler coil was burned up by traveling waves,
not standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Love those absolute statements, just like my mother in-law used to
say: "because..."

So can we take it apart?
I have a quarter wave resonant, fine tuned, coil loaded Hustler
mobile 80m whippy.
So far we knew that it is a standing wave circuit. Now Cecil tells me
that it automatically becomes traveling wave in/through the coil?
Wasaaap? Christmas miracle?
We know, saw burning and measured that current decreases towards the
top as proportional to the standing wave (current). We know that
traveling wave has uniform current along the conductor (coil). That
it needs to be terminated in characteristic impedance load somewhere
in order to have nice smooth constant current distribution along the
conductor (antenna). So far I have learned that, yes, standing wave
current can burn the coil (now it is traveling), that sw voltage can
burn lossy insulator and create corona. That current through
resistance generates heat, consumes real power. That resonant antenna
is a standing wave circuit, but standing wave voltage and current,
while they are measurable and observable do not have (sw) power. When
I pump more power to the antenna, it burns faster. It takes power to
burn things, but there is no power, just current and voltage.
Normally power is voltage times current, but not in Hustler country.
(Use lossless transmission line, dummy :-)

"You are right Yuri (finally) because......."

So what happened to collapsing E field creating M field and them 90
degrees?

How can I proceed to explore standing wave antennas vs. traveling
waves if I am stuck here on the Hustler whip and its whims and "no
power" burning coils?
Must be the messed up equilibrium somewhere :-)

Huh?

The standing wave is completely reactive. It is constantly storing and
releasing energy. In addition to the standing wave we have ohmic
resistance in series and radiation resistance in parallel. For the
series ohmic resistance and parallel radiation resistance, current is
in phase when the antenna is resonant. Think of a circuit with a
capacitor, inductor and radiation resistor resonant in parallel with
an ohmic reistor in series with the RLC. The standing wave portion is
drawn by the capacitor/coil where current through the inductive
portion is lags +90 degrees wrt to voltage and through the capacitive
it leads by 90 degrees. The standing wave is merely a vibrational
energy shift between antenna system inductance and antenna system
capacitance. However, the impedance of the total circuit also consists
of real components accounting for the real power drawn by your
residential electrical service (or car battery). For this portion of
the antenna, the current is a travelling wave. Hopefully, radiation
resistance will be ohmic but that will not usually be the case with
a bug catcher.



I keep reading this stuff looking for a complete definition of this new
"standing wave" that has a life of its own.

A whole lot of the quote is inconsistent, but lets just examine this
little sentence:
... The standing wave is merely a vibrational
energy shift between antenna system inductance and antenna system
capacitance. ...

Let's consider a 50 ohm ideal transmission line with a 25 ohm ideal
resistive load in the AC steady state. There is no "antenna system
inductance and antenna system capacitance", there is no load inductance
or capacitance at all.

Now is there a "standing wave" on the transmission line in the absence of
these elements that are purported to underly "a vibrational energy shift
between antenna system inductance and antenna system capacitance"?

Of course there is... well, at least in terms of the conventional meaning
of "standing wave", so this explanation of what underlies a standing wave
must be flawed.

Owen

Owen Duffy wrote:
Let's consider a 50 ohm ideal transmission line with a 25 ohm ideal
resistive load in the AC steady state. There is no "antenna system
inductance and antenna system capacitance", there is no load inductance
or capacitance at all.

I suspect what Dan is referring to is the LCLCLCLC
equivalent circuit for a transmission line. A horizontal
wire over ground is a one-wire transmission line with
Z0 = ~SQRT(L/C). A radiating antenna can be considered
to be a lossy transmission line.

A #14 horizontal wire at 30 feet calculates out to be
Z0 = 600 ohms so L/C = ~360,000. I'm pretty sure that
is the L and C that Dan is talking about - the same
L and C in which the standing wave energy is stored.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
I suspect what Dan is referring to is the LCLCLCLC
equivalent circuit for a transmission line. A horizontal
wire over ground is a one-wire transmission line with
Z0 = ~SQRT(L/C). A radiating antenna can be considered
to be a lossy transmission line.

A #14 horizontal wire at 30 feet calculates out to be
Z0 = 600 ohms so L/C = ~360,000. I'm pretty sure that
is the L and C that Dan is talking about - the same
L and C in which the standing wave energy is stored.

since:
2b
L = 0.00508((ln---) - 0.75) (best ascii can do)
a


whe
L = uH
a = wire dia in inches
b = wire length in inches
ln = natural logarithm
and, since #14 is .0641 inch
and 30 ft = 30*12 or 360 inches

2*360
L = 0.00508((ln(------)) - 0.75)
0.0641

L = .043568935605uH

Now, if I can just find that formula for the capacitance of a free wire
in space--I know I seen it here just a bit ago ... sorry, I'll have to
get back to you on that one ;-)

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:
[a bunch of kidding stuff--it's CHRISTMAS!]

There is the equation:

| |2h | b+sqrt(bsquared+asquared) |||
L = .0117|log10|---|----------------------------||| +
| | a |b+sqrt(bsquared+(4*hsquared)|||

| b |
0.0508|sqrt(bsquared+4*hsquared) - sqrt(bsquared+asquared) + - - 2h + a|
| 4 |

whe (and, sorry again, we only have ascii here)

|
(and, | is simply a bracket) or, one of these "({[" or these ")}]" but
|
then, you already knew that ...


L = uH
a = wire rad. in inches
b = wire length parallel to ground, in inches
h = wire height above ground, in inches

Now, this equation is probably a 'bit' more accurate than above--but
d*mn, still looking for that free wire (or, wire-above-ground) equation
for capacitance, for a wire in space ... :-D

Regards,
looking forward to New Years,
JS

John Smith wrote:

[more stuff his sick mind gets a kick out of]

Regards,
looking forward to New Years,
JS

Sorry, when everyone else is in bed, or his/her cups, I am still
up--just has always been like that ... and with that, a Good Night!

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:
....

Well, finished unpacking the new toy. Thanks Santa!

Bolted the neodymium magnet to the 1,000,000 R.P.S. motor (specially
constructed from the metal from crashed UFOs' recovered by the gov't.)
Shoved this rf generator into the coaxial tank to couple with the
specially constructed copper coupling constructed into the tank, and
firmly secured it. Coupled the ant to the tank with a 1 turn loop
located at a standing wave "hump" and plugged it in ... darn thing is a
little large!

Anyone have their MW radio(s) tuned to 1Mhz? :-|

Regards,
JS

Owen wrote:
"There is no "antenna system inductance and antenna system capacitance"
at all."

Then there would be no antenna. A real antenna has both types of
reactance, capacitive and inductive. In the best antenna, opposite types
of reactance are equal, so balance to zero, only leaving resistances,
radiation and loss types, to impede current into the antenna.

The transmission line, if its Zo matches the antenna, has no standing
wave, but the antenna in many cases has an open circuit at its tip which
generates standing waves aplenty on the antenna itself.

I am not critical of Owen. His posting was the only one I read in the
thread at that spot. Happy New Year to everybody!

Best Regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Richard Harrison wrote:

...
Best Regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI


I beg your pardon, but a coaxial tank circuit cannot operate without
"circulating currents"--therefore, a standing wave cannot be denied ...

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:
"I beg your pardon, but a coaxial tank dircuit cannot operate without
circulating currents--therefore a standing wave cannot be denied..."

Standing waves in devices attached to a transmission lines need not
carry over into the line itself.

A transmission line properly matched to an antenna injects all its
energy into the antenna without reflecting any back towards the
transmitter, thus there are no standing waves on the transmission line..

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI