or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this group
have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.

"Dave" wrote in message
news:ZF6cj.1291$OH6.639@trndny03...
or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this
group have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.




The best confession yet :-)

Just my two centavos.
I enjoy this group because it is not policed by the Gestapo moderator and is
open to variety of opinions and allows niiiice loooong threads leading to
some conclusions and bringing up points that otherwise would be neglected.
It is a mirror of some personalities, uncovering their real repository of
knowledge, right or wrong, testing the convictions and stubbornness on
sometimes sticking to their false truths. But those with some open mind left
can make their own conclusions and learn a thing or two.
What a difference to say Towertalk reflector where i.e. W8JI (the great
technical imposter - as summed by K7GCO) can decimate opponent of his
"gospels" while Gestapo admin will delete any opposition to his "teachings"
and leave the last man standing with his fallacies still on his web site.
Too bad, because many decent posters get turned off and fade away just
disgusted by it.
So, thanks to youze guyz for your contributions to the warfare here, it is
the best, stimulating and a mirror of various contributors that paint the
pictures of themselves with their arguments.
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy New 2008!

Yuri, K3BU, VE3BMV etc

I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

There's plenty of energy in those standing waves, Yuri,
existing as "reactive power" as defined by the IEEE
Dictionary (units of VARS from power engineering).

When any energy is extracted from a standing wave and
used to heat the Hustler coil, it automatically becomes a
traveling wave with the voltage and current in phase, not
a standing wave with the voltage and current 90 degrees out
of phase. Your Hustler coil was burned up by traveling waves,
not standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
news:ZF6cj.1291$OH6.639@trndny03...
or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this
group have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.




The best confession yet :-)

Just my two centavos.
I enjoy this group because it is not policed by the Gestapo moderator and is
open to variety of opinions and allows niiiice loooong threads leading to
some conclusions and bringing up points that otherwise would be neglected.
It is a mirror of some personalities, uncovering their real repository of
knowledge, right or wrong, testing the convictions and stubbornness on
sometimes sticking to their false truths. But those with some open mind left
can make their own conclusions and learn a thing or two.
What a difference to say Towertalk reflector where i.e. W8JI (the great
technical imposter - as summed by K7GCO) can decimate opponent of his
"gospels" while Gestapo admin will delete any opposition to his "teachings"
and leave the last man standing with his fallacies still on his web site.
Too bad, because many decent posters get turned off and fade away just
disgusted by it.
So, thanks to youze guyz for your contributions to the warfare here, it is
the best, stimulating and a mirror of various contributors that paint the
pictures of themselves with their arguments.
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy New 2008!

Yuri, K3BU, VE3BMV etc


Hello All:

I have sent Yuri e-mail telling him how I liked his Razor Antenna and
enjoyed his writings and such. But got no reply. Maybe didn't get thru
the filter?!?!?

This RRAA is a good group as I for one, watch and read, and then reread
and look thru a few books. It is a healthy group. And at times real
entertaining. As Yuri said it has many different views and
considerations not mention in most books and such are presented.

Setting back on the side lines and watching.

Merry Christmas to all.

Jay in the Mojave

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
et...
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

There's plenty of energy in those standing waves, Yuri,
existing as "reactive power" as defined by the IEEE
Dictionary (units of VARS from power engineering).

When any energy is extracted from a standing wave and
used to heat the Hustler coil, it automatically becomes a
traveling wave with the voltage and current in phase, not
a standing wave with the voltage and current 90 degrees out
of phase. Your Hustler coil was burned up by traveling waves,
not standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Love those absolute statements, just like my mother in-law used to say:
"because..."

So can we take it apart?
I have a quarter wave resonant, fine tuned, coil loaded Hustler mobile 80m
whippy.
So far we knew that it is a standing wave circuit. Now Cecil tells me that
it automatically becomes traveling wave in/through the coil? Wasaaap?
Christmas miracle?
We know, saw burning and measured that current decreases towards the top as
proportional to the standing wave (current). We know that traveling wave has
uniform current along the conductor (coil). That it needs to be terminated
in characteristic impedance load somewhere in order to have nice smooth
constant current distribution along the conductor (antenna).
So far I have learned that, yes, standing wave current can burn the coil
(now it is traveling), that sw voltage can burn lossy insulator and create
corona. That current through resistance generates heat, consumes real power.
That resonant antenna is a standing wave circuit, but standing wave voltage
and current, while they are measurable and observable do not have (sw)
power. When I pump more power to the antenna, it burns faster. It takes
power to burn things, but there is no power, just current and voltage.
Normally power is voltage times current, but not in Hustler country. (Use
lossless transmission line, dummy :-)

"You are right Yuri (finally) because......."

So what happened to collapsing E field creating M field and them 90 degrees?

How can I proceed to explore standing wave antennas vs. traveling waves if I
am stuck here on the Hustler whip and its whims and "no power" burning
coils?
Must be the messed up equilibrium somewhere :-)

Huh?

Yuri

Dave wrote:
or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this group
have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.

Now, let me see, to sum that "all up:"

1) Do not think for yourself; only thoughts which have gone before are
valid.

2) There is nothing which has been overlooked in prior works.

3) The world is only composed of idiots; if they even read the
conversation/debate of others on "possibilities" their lack of mental
prowness will be their end.

4) If someone doesn't have a complete and absolute understanding of the
"truths" at this point, so be it, they are not to engage in any
discussions which will expose their ignorance--else they be less than
REAL men/women.

5) Etc., etc., etc. ...

Yeah, I have heard it all before ... thanks. Frankly, if there does
exist such idiots as you propose--so be it.

THREAD PLONK!

JS

Jay in the Mojave wrote:

...
Setting back on the side lines and watching.

Merry Christmas to all.

Jay in the Mojave

Merry Xmas Jay.

We are kindred spirits in the enjoyment of this group ...

Warm regards,
JS

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
So far we knew that it is a standing wave circuit. Now Cecil tells me that
it automatically becomes traveling wave in/through the coil? Wasaaap?
Christmas miracle?

No, that's not what I said. What I said is the voltage and
current in a standing wave are *always* 90 degrees out of
phase and it is impossible to generate heat when the voltage
and current are 90 degrees out of phase. Just as soon as
heat is detected, we know the cosine of the angle between the
voltage and current is 1.0 which tells us it is a traveling
wave, not a standing wave.

As long as the phase angle between the voltage and current
remains at 90 degrees, it is a standing wave, by definition,
and heat cannot be extracted. If heat is extracted, it no
longer meets the definition of a standing wave.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"AI4QJ" wrote in
:


"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message
...

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
et...
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way
to "no power in standing waves" and where all those electrons,
photons and other antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

There's plenty of energy in those standing waves, Yuri,
existing as "reactive power" as defined by the IEEE
Dictionary (units of VARS from power engineering).

When any energy is extracted from a standing wave and
used to heat the Hustler coil, it automatically becomes a
traveling wave with the voltage and current in phase, not
a standing wave with the voltage and current 90 degrees out
of phase. Your Hustler coil was burned up by traveling waves,
not standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Love those absolute statements, just like my mother in-law used to
say: "because..."

So can we take it apart?
I have a quarter wave resonant, fine tuned, coil loaded Hustler
mobile 80m whippy.
So far we knew that it is a standing wave circuit. Now Cecil tells me
that it automatically becomes traveling wave in/through the coil?
Wasaaap? Christmas miracle?
We know, saw burning and measured that current decreases towards the
top as proportional to the standing wave (current). We know that
traveling wave has uniform current along the conductor (coil). That
it needs to be terminated in characteristic impedance load somewhere
in order to have nice smooth constant current distribution along the
conductor (antenna). So far I have learned that, yes, standing wave
current can burn the coil (now it is traveling), that sw voltage can
burn lossy insulator and create corona. That current through
resistance generates heat, consumes real power. That resonant antenna
is a standing wave circuit, but standing wave voltage and current,
while they are measurable and observable do not have (sw) power. When
I pump more power to the antenna, it burns faster. It takes power to
burn things, but there is no power, just current and voltage.
Normally power is voltage times current, but not in Hustler country.
(Use lossless transmission line, dummy :-)

"You are right Yuri (finally) because......."

So what happened to collapsing E field creating M field and them 90
degrees?

How can I proceed to explore standing wave antennas vs. traveling
waves if I am stuck here on the Hustler whip and its whims and "no
power" burning coils?
Must be the messed up equilibrium somewhere :-)

Huh?

The standing wave is completely reactive. It is constantly storing and
releasing energy. In addition to the standing wave we have ohmic
resistance in series and radiation resistance in parallel. For the
series ohmic resistance and parallel radiation resistance, current is
in phase when the antenna is resonant. Think of a circuit with a
capacitor, inductor and radiation resistor resonant in parallel with
an ohmic reistor in series with the RLC. The standing wave portion is
drawn by the capacitor/coil where current through the inductive
portion is lags +90 degrees wrt to voltage and through the capacitive
it leads by 90 degrees. The standing wave is merely a vibrational
energy shift between antenna system inductance and antenna system
capacitance. However, the impedance of the total circuit also consists
of real components accounting for the real power drawn by your
residential electrical service (or car battery). For this portion of
the antenna, the current is a travelling wave. Hopefully, radiation
resistance will be ohmic but that will not usually be the case with
a bug catcher.



I keep reading this stuff looking for a complete definition of this new
"standing wave" that has a life of its own.

A whole lot of the quote is inconsistent, but lets just examine this
little sentence:
... The standing wave is merely a vibrational
energy shift between antenna system inductance and antenna system
capacitance. ...

Let's consider a 50 ohm ideal transmission line with a 25 ohm ideal
resistive load in the AC steady state. There is no "antenna system
inductance and antenna system capacitance", there is no load inductance
or capacitance at all.

Now is there a "standing wave" on the transmission line in the absence of
these elements that are purported to underly "a vibrational energy shift
between antenna system inductance and antenna system capacitance"?

Of course there is... well, at least in terms of the conventional meaning
of "standing wave", so this explanation of what underlies a standing wave
must be flawed.

Owen

Owen Duffy wrote:
Let's consider a 50 ohm ideal transmission line with a 25 ohm ideal
resistive load in the AC steady state. There is no "antenna system
inductance and antenna system capacitance", there is no load inductance
or capacitance at all.

I suspect what Dan is referring to is the LCLCLCLC
equivalent circuit for a transmission line. A horizontal
wire over ground is a one-wire transmission line with
Z0 = ~SQRT(L/C). A radiating antenna can be considered
to be a lossy transmission line.

A #14 horizontal wire at 30 feet calculates out to be
Z0 = 600 ohms so L/C = ~360,000. I'm pretty sure that
is the L and C that Dan is talking about - the same
L and C in which the standing wave energy is stored.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com