r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this group
have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.

r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

"Dave" wrote in message
news:ZF6cj.1291$OH6.639@trndny03...
or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this
group have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.




The best confession yet :-)

Just my two centavos.
I enjoy this group because it is not policed by the Gestapo moderator and is
open to variety of opinions and allows niiiice loooong threads leading to
some conclusions and bringing up points that otherwise would be neglected.
It is a mirror of some personalities, uncovering their real repository of
knowledge, right or wrong, testing the convictions and stubbornness on
sometimes sticking to their false truths. But those with some open mind left
can make their own conclusions and learn a thing or two.
What a difference to say Towertalk reflector where i.e. W8JI (the great
technical imposter - as summed by K7GCO) can decimate opponent of his
"gospels" while Gestapo admin will delete any opposition to his "teachings"
and leave the last man standing with his fallacies still on his web site.
Too bad, because many decent posters get turned off and fade away just
disgusted by it.
So, thanks to youze guyz for your contributions to the warfare here, it is
the best, stimulating and a mirror of various contributors that paint the
pictures of themselves with their arguments.
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy New 2008!

Yuri, K3BU, VE3BMV etc

r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

There's plenty of energy in those standing waves, Yuri,
existing as "reactive power" as defined by the IEEE
Dictionary (units of VARS from power engineering).

When any energy is extracted from a standing wave and
used to heat the Hustler coil, it automatically becomes a
traveling wave with the voltage and current in phase, not
a standing wave with the voltage and current 90 degrees out
of phase. Your Hustler coil was burned up by traveling waves,
not standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
news:ZF6cj.1291$OH6.639@trndny03...
or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this
group have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.




The best confession yet :-)

Just my two centavos.
I enjoy this group because it is not policed by the Gestapo moderator and is
open to variety of opinions and allows niiiice loooong threads leading to
some conclusions and bringing up points that otherwise would be neglected.
It is a mirror of some personalities, uncovering their real repository of
knowledge, right or wrong, testing the convictions and stubbornness on
sometimes sticking to their false truths. But those with some open mind left
can make their own conclusions and learn a thing or two.
What a difference to say Towertalk reflector where i.e. W8JI (the great
technical imposter - as summed by K7GCO) can decimate opponent of his
"gospels" while Gestapo admin will delete any opposition to his "teachings"
and leave the last man standing with his fallacies still on his web site.
Too bad, because many decent posters get turned off and fade away just
disgusted by it.
So, thanks to youze guyz for your contributions to the warfare here, it is
the best, stimulating and a mirror of various contributors that paint the
pictures of themselves with their arguments.
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy New 2008!

Yuri, K3BU, VE3BMV etc


Hello All:

I have sent Yuri e-mail telling him how I liked his Razor Antenna and
enjoyed his writings and such. But got no reply. Maybe didn't get thru
the filter?!?!?

This RRAA is a good group as I for one, watch and read, and then reread
and look thru a few books. It is a healthy group. And at times real
entertaining. As Yuri said it has many different views and
considerations not mention in most books and such are presented.

Setting back on the side lines and watching.

Merry Christmas to all.

Jay in the Mojave

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
et...
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way to "no
power in standing waves" and where all those electrons, photons and other
antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

There's plenty of energy in those standing waves, Yuri,
existing as "reactive power" as defined by the IEEE
Dictionary (units of VARS from power engineering).

When any energy is extracted from a standing wave and
used to heat the Hustler coil, it automatically becomes a
traveling wave with the voltage and current in phase, not
a standing wave with the voltage and current 90 degrees out
of phase. Your Hustler coil was burned up by traveling waves,
not standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Love those absolute statements, just like my mother in-law used to say:
"because..."

So can we take it apart?
I have a quarter wave resonant, fine tuned, coil loaded Hustler mobile 80m
whippy.
So far we knew that it is a standing wave circuit. Now Cecil tells me that
it automatically becomes traveling wave in/through the coil? Wasaaap?
Christmas miracle?
We know, saw burning and measured that current decreases towards the top as
proportional to the standing wave (current). We know that traveling wave has
uniform current along the conductor (coil). That it needs to be terminated
in characteristic impedance load somewhere in order to have nice smooth
constant current distribution along the conductor (antenna).
So far I have learned that, yes, standing wave current can burn the coil
(now it is traveling), that sw voltage can burn lossy insulator and create
corona. That current through resistance generates heat, consumes real power.
That resonant antenna is a standing wave circuit, but standing wave voltage
and current, while they are measurable and observable do not have (sw)
power. When I pump more power to the antenna, it burns faster. It takes
power to burn things, but there is no power, just current and voltage.
Normally power is voltage times current, but not in Hustler country. (Use
lossless transmission line, dummy :-)

"You are right Yuri (finally) because......."

So what happened to collapsing E field creating M field and them 90 degrees?

How can I proceed to explore standing wave antennas vs. traveling waves if I
am stuck here on the Hustler whip and its whims and "no power" burning
coils?
Must be the messed up equilibrium somewhere :-)

Huh?

Yuri

r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Dave wrote:
or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this group
have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.

Now, let me see, to sum that "all up:"

1) Do not think for yourself; only thoughts which have gone before are
valid.

2) There is nothing which has been overlooked in prior works.

3) The world is only composed of idiots; if they even read the
conversation/debate of others on "possibilities" their lack of mental
prowness will be their end.

4) If someone doesn't have a complete and absolute understanding of the
"truths" at this point, so be it, they are not to engage in any
discussions which will expose their ignorance--else they be less than
REAL men/women.

5) Etc., etc., etc. ...

Yeah, I have heard it all before ... thanks. Frankly, if there does
exist such idiots as you propose--so be it.

THREAD PLONK!

JS

r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Jay in the Mojave wrote:

...
Setting back on the side lines and watching.

Merry Christmas to all.

Jay in the Mojave

Merry Xmas Jay.

We are kindred spirits in the enjoyment of this group ...

Warm regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
So far we knew that it is a standing wave circuit. Now Cecil tells me that
it automatically becomes traveling wave in/through the coil? Wasaaap?
Christmas miracle?

No, that's not what I said. What I said is the voltage and
current in a standing wave are *always* 90 degrees out of
phase and it is impossible to generate heat when the voltage
and current are 90 degrees out of phase. Just as soon as
heat is detected, we know the cosine of the angle between the
voltage and current is 1.0 which tells us it is a traveling
wave, not a standing wave.

As long as the phase angle between the voltage and current
remains at 90 degrees, it is a standing wave, by definition,
and heat cannot be extracted. If heat is extracted, it no
longer meets the definition of a standing wave.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

"AI4QJ" wrote in
:


"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message
...

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
et...
I have learned from my burned up Hustler coil mystery all the way
to "no power in standing waves" and where all those electrons,
photons and other antenna creaters go when I feed them power.

There's plenty of energy in those standing waves, Yuri,
existing as "reactive power" as defined by the IEEE
Dictionary (units of VARS from power engineering).

When any energy is extracted from a standing wave and
used to heat the Hustler coil, it automatically becomes a
traveling wave with the voltage and current in phase, not
a standing wave with the voltage and current 90 degrees out
of phase. Your Hustler coil was burned up by traveling waves,
not standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Love those absolute statements, just like my mother in-law used to
say: "because..."

So can we take it apart?
I have a quarter wave resonant, fine tuned, coil loaded Hustler
mobile 80m whippy.
So far we knew that it is a standing wave circuit. Now Cecil tells me
that it automatically becomes traveling wave in/through the coil?
Wasaaap? Christmas miracle?
We know, saw burning and measured that current decreases towards the
top as proportional to the standing wave (current). We know that
traveling wave has uniform current along the conductor (coil). That
it needs to be terminated in characteristic impedance load somewhere
in order to have nice smooth constant current distribution along the
conductor (antenna). So far I have learned that, yes, standing wave
current can burn the coil (now it is traveling), that sw voltage can
burn lossy insulator and create corona. That current through
resistance generates heat, consumes real power. That resonant antenna
is a standing wave circuit, but standing wave voltage and current,
while they are measurable and observable do not have (sw) power. When
I pump more power to the antenna, it burns faster. It takes power to
burn things, but there is no power, just current and voltage.
Normally power is voltage times current, but not in Hustler country.
(Use lossless transmission line, dummy :-)

"You are right Yuri (finally) because......."

So what happened to collapsing E field creating M field and them 90
degrees?

How can I proceed to explore standing wave antennas vs. traveling
waves if I am stuck here on the Hustler whip and its whims and "no
power" burning coils?
Must be the messed up equilibrium somewhere :-)

Huh?

The standing wave is completely reactive. It is constantly storing and
releasing energy. In addition to the standing wave we have ohmic
resistance in series and radiation resistance in parallel. For the
series ohmic resistance and parallel radiation resistance, current is
in phase when the antenna is resonant. Think of a circuit with a
capacitor, inductor and radiation resistor resonant in parallel with
an ohmic reistor in series with the RLC. The standing wave portion is
drawn by the capacitor/coil where current through the inductive
portion is lags +90 degrees wrt to voltage and through the capacitive
it leads by 90 degrees. The standing wave is merely a vibrational
energy shift between antenna system inductance and antenna system
capacitance. However, the impedance of the total circuit also consists
of real components accounting for the real power drawn by your
residential electrical service (or car battery). For this portion of
the antenna, the current is a travelling wave. Hopefully, radiation
resistance will be ohmic but that will not usually be the case with
a bug catcher.



I keep reading this stuff looking for a complete definition of this new
"standing wave" that has a life of its own.

A whole lot of the quote is inconsistent, but lets just examine this
little sentence:
... The standing wave is merely a vibrational
energy shift between antenna system inductance and antenna system
capacitance. ...

Let's consider a 50 ohm ideal transmission line with a 25 ohm ideal
resistive load in the AC steady state. There is no "antenna system
inductance and antenna system capacitance", there is no load inductance
or capacitance at all.

Now is there a "standing wave" on the transmission line in the absence of
these elements that are purported to underly "a vibrational energy shift
between antenna system inductance and antenna system capacitance"?

Of course there is... well, at least in terms of the conventional meaning
of "standing wave", so this explanation of what underlies a standing wave
must be flawed.

Owen

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Owen Duffy wrote:
Let's consider a 50 ohm ideal transmission line with a 25 ohm ideal
resistive load in the AC steady state. There is no "antenna system
inductance and antenna system capacitance", there is no load inductance
or capacitance at all.

I suspect what Dan is referring to is the LCLCLCLC
equivalent circuit for a transmission line. A horizontal
wire over ground is a one-wire transmission line with
Z0 = ~SQRT(L/C). A radiating antenna can be considered
to be a lossy transmission line.

A #14 horizontal wire at 30 feet calculates out to be
Z0 = 600 ohms so L/C = ~360,000. I'm pretty sure that
is the L and C that Dan is talking about - the same
L and C in which the standing wave energy is stored.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

"AI4QJ" wrote in
:


I put to you a scenario where there was no antenna or load inductance or
capacitance, and there was a standing wave on the transmission line.

That says to me that the standing wave is not a consequence of antenna or
load inductance or capacitance, or "a vibrational energy shift between
antenna system inductance and antenna system capacitance" as you put it.

Owen

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
I suspect what Dan is referring to is the LCLCLCLC
equivalent circuit for a transmission line. A horizontal
wire over ground is a one-wire transmission line with
Z0 = ~SQRT(L/C). A radiating antenna can be considered
to be a lossy transmission line.

A #14 horizontal wire at 30 feet calculates out to be
Z0 = 600 ohms so L/C = ~360,000. I'm pretty sure that
is the L and C that Dan is talking about - the same
L and C in which the standing wave energy is stored.

since:
2b
L = 0.00508((ln---) - 0.75) (best ascii can do)
a


whe
L = uH
a = wire dia in inches
b = wire length in inches
ln = natural logarithm
and, since #14 is .0641 inch
and 30 ft = 30*12 or 360 inches

2*360
L = 0.00508((ln(------)) - 0.75)
0.0641

L = .043568935605uH

Now, if I can just find that formula for the capacitance of a free wire
in space--I know I seen it here just a bit ago ... sorry, I'll have to
get back to you on that one ;-)

Regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:
[a bunch of kidding stuff--it's CHRISTMAS!]

There is the equation:

| |2h | b+sqrt(bsquared+asquared) |||
L = .0117|log10|---|----------------------------||| +
| | a |b+sqrt(bsquared+(4*hsquared)|||

| b |
0.0508|sqrt(bsquared+4*hsquared) - sqrt(bsquared+asquared) + - - 2h + a|
| 4 |

whe (and, sorry again, we only have ascii here)

|
(and, | is simply a bracket) or, one of these "({[" or these ")}]" but
|
then, you already knew that ...


L = uH
a = wire rad. in inches
b = wire length parallel to ground, in inches
h = wire height above ground, in inches

Now, this equation is probably a 'bit' more accurate than above--but
d*mn, still looking for that free wire (or, wire-above-ground) equation
for capacitance, for a wire in space ... :-D

Regards,
looking forward to New Years,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:

[more stuff his sick mind gets a kick out of]

Regards,
looking forward to New Years,
JS

Sorry, when everyone else is in bed, or his/her cups, I am still
up--just has always been like that ... and with that, a Good Night!

Regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

"AI4QJ" wrote in
:

....
not so nicely linear. The antenna is a lossy transmission line just as
Owen's example was a lossy xmission line example with a 25 ohm load at

No, my example stipulated an ideal transmission line, and by that I mean it
to be lossless amongst other things.

You and Cecil are transforming the example to suit yourselves.

Owen.

r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:
Jay in the Mojave wrote:

...
Setting back on the side lines and watching.

Merry Christmas to all.

Jay in the Mojave

Merry Xmas Jay.

We are kindred spirits in the enjoyment of this group ...

Warm regards,
JS

Hello JS:

Yeah Ten-4 hope Christmas was a pleasant day for. I do enjoy reading the
group here. But don't have the time to look everyday.

Have a Happy and safe New Year. Stay out of jail. (humor) Maybe catch ya
on the bands some day.

Jay in the Mojave

Kreediantilas:
Not 2 many

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Owen Duffy wrote:

I put to you a scenario where there was no antenna or load inductance or
capacitance, and there was a standing wave on the transmission line.

In that case, the standing wave is contained in the inductance
and capacitance in the transmission line.

That says to me that the standing wave is not a consequence of antenna or
load inductance or capacitance, or "a vibrational energy shift between
antenna system inductance and antenna system capacitance" as you put it.

When Dan said that, he was not talking about transmission lines.
He was talking about the standing wave antenna itself (without
the transmission line). You two are talking about entirely
different things.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Owen Duffy wrote:
"AI4QJ" wrote:
not so nicely linear. The antenna is a lossy transmission line just as
Owen's example was a lossy xmission line example with a 25 ohm load at

No, my example stipulated an ideal transmission line, and by that I mean it
to be lossless amongst other things.

What we are saying is that even if the transmission line
is lossless, the *system* is lossy because of the 25 ohm
resistor.

If there were no losses in the *system*, the waves on the
lossless transmission line would be pure standing waves.
Because of the losses in the load, the waves on the lossless
transmission line are not pure standing waves, but a mixture
of standing waves and traveling waves. In your case (#1 below)
the system is primarily a traveling wave system, closer to
flat than to an OC or SC stub because only 11% of the forward
energy is rejected by the load.

You and Cecil are transforming the example to suit yourselves.

I'm not transforming the example. You are the one who put
the lossy resistor in the system. The traveling waves are
the direct result of the installation of the resistor.

Let's look at a few different examples and assume the
measured joules/sec flowing forward toward the load is
100 joules/sec in each case.

1. Your example of 50 ohm lossless coax connected to a 25
ohm load. The forward joules/sec is 100. The reflected
joules/sec is 11.11. The joules/sec consumed by the 25
ohm load is 88.89. 89% of the forward wave is traveling
wave. 11.11% of the forward wave is used by the standing
wave. The system is primarily a traveling wave system.
The energy not delivered to the load is stored in the
standing wave in the LCLCLCLC components of the
transmission line.

2. No load on the lossless coax. The forward joules/sec
and the reflected joules/sec are equal. 100% of the energy
is standing wave energy and all of it is stored in the
LCLCLCLC components of the transmission line. It does not
move from LC to LC. It simply oscillates in place between
L and C. EZNEC confirms that the current phasor does NOT
rotate.

3. 50 ohm load on the lossless coax. The reflected joules/sec
equals zero and the system is flat. 100% of the energy is
traveling wave energy. The only energy in the transmission
line is the energy it took to fill the pipeline, the delay
between power-on and the load dissipating power. The LCLCLCLC
in this case is an energy bucket brigade.

4. 500 ohm load on the lossless coax. Of the forward 100
joules/sec, only 33 joules/sec is accepted by the load.
The other 67 joules/sec are rejected by the load and become
half of the energy in the standing wave. The system is
primarily a standing wave system. The energy not delivered
to the load is stored in the standing wave in the LCLCLCLC
components of the transmission line.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:
....

Well, finished unpacking the new toy. Thanks Santa!

Bolted the neodymium magnet to the 1,000,000 R.P.S. motor (specially
constructed from the metal from crashed UFOs' recovered by the gov't.)
Shoved this rf generator into the coaxial tank to couple with the
specially constructed copper coupling constructed into the tank, and
firmly secured it. Coupled the ant to the tank with a 1 turn loop
located at a standing wave "hump" and plugged it in ... darn thing is a
little large!

Anyone have their MW radio(s) tuned to 1Mhz? :-|

Regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:

What I said is the voltage and
current in a standing wave are *always* 90 degrees out of
phase and it is impossible to generate heat when the voltage
and current are 90 degrees out of phase.

So then shouldn't one expect coax to be heated uniformly along its
length at a high SWR?

73, ac6xg

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Owen Duffy wrote:
"AI4QJ" wrote:
not so nicely linear. The antenna is a lossy transmission line just as
Owen's example was a lossy xmission line example with a 25 ohm load at

No, my example stipulated an ideal transmission line, and by that I
mean it to be lossless amongst other things.

What we are saying is that even if the transmission line
is lossless, the *system* is lossy because of the 25 ohm
resistor.

If there were no losses in the *system*, the waves on the
lossless transmission line would be pure standing waves.
Because of the losses in the load, the waves on the lossless
transmission line are not pure standing waves, but a mixture
of standing waves and traveling waves. In your case (#1 below)
the system is primarily a traveling wave system, closer to
flat than to an OC or SC stub because only 11% of the forward
energy is rejected by the load.

You and Cecil are transforming the example to suit yourselves.

I'm not transforming the example. You are the one who put
the lossy resistor in the system. The traveling waves are
the direct result of the installation of the resistor.

Let's look at a few different examples and assume the
measured joules/sec flowing forward toward the load is
100 joules/sec in each case.

1. Your example of 50 ohm lossless coax connected to a 25
ohm load. The forward joules/sec is 100. The reflected
joules/sec is 11.11. The joules/sec consumed by the 25
ohm load is 88.89. 89% of the forward wave is traveling
wave. 11.11% of the forward wave is used by the standing
wave. The system is primarily a traveling wave system.
The energy not delivered to the load is stored in the
standing wave in the LCLCLCLC components of the
transmission line.

2. No load on the lossless coax. The forward joules/sec
and the reflected joules/sec are equal. 100% of the energy
is standing wave energy and all of it is stored in the
LCLCLCLC components of the transmission line. It does not
move from LC to LC. It simply oscillates in place between
L and C. EZNEC confirms that the current phasor does NOT
rotate.

3. 50 ohm load on the lossless coax. The reflected joules/sec
equals zero and the system is flat. 100% of the energy is
traveling wave energy. The only energy in the transmission
line is the energy it took to fill the pipeline, the delay
between power-on and the load dissipating power. The LCLCLCLC
in this case is an energy bucket brigade.

4. 500 ohm load on the lossless coax. Of the forward 100
joules/sec, only 33 joules/sec is accepted by the load.
The other 67 joules/sec are rejected by the load and become
half of the energy in the standing wave. The system is
primarily a standing wave system. The energy not delivered
to the load is stored in the standing wave in the LCLCLCLC
components of the transmission line.
Cecil, I think this is an excellent series of examples, and greatly
helps me understand your thinking. Roy also wrote a great posting,
which I will respond to shortly.

But I wonder if you are thinking of the standing wave as the end of the
reflected wave, or as the envelope described by the reflected waves as
they sequence in time. These choices at first sound nearly identical,
but they are not. A sequence of reflected waves results in sequential
changes that affect the input power. The final standing wave will not
be defined until several sequential waves have occurred. Unless
adjusted, the ongoing stable power flow to the load will be reduced (or
increased) from the initial value by the effects of the standing wave.
So think I.

Thanks for this series of examples.

73, Roger, W7WKB

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:

What I said is the voltage and
current in a standing wave are *always* 90 degrees out of
phase and it is impossible to generate heat when the voltage
and current are 90 degrees out of phase.

So then shouldn't one expect coax to be heated uniformly along its
length at a high SWR?

No, any and all heat is work done by traveling waves, not
standing waves. As long as standing waves exist as standing
waves, they are incapable of doing work or heating anything.

You, of all people, should appreciate that since V*I*cos(90)
equals zero for standing waves, absolutely no work can be
performed by a standing wave. If the energy in a standing
wave is used to provide work, the standing wave ceases to
exist as it does at key-up.

In trying to get any work out of V*I*cos(90)=0, blood out
of a turnip comes to mind.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

AI4QJ wrote:
This standing wave exists but it does *nothing* to transmit
power from my amp into radiated power.

Just a Nit.

The standing wave does do something to help the process.
It, like the tuner, transforms impedances. Without the
impedance transformation properties of the standing
waves, the system would not work as designed.

With my All-HF-Band notuner dipole (on my web page) the
standing waves are my friends, not my enemies. Without
the standing waves, my ladder-line length selector
method of matching would not work.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Roger wrote:
But I wonder if you are thinking of the standing wave as the end of the
reflected wave, or as the envelope described by the reflected waves as
they sequence in time.

I am talking about steady-state and V(t) vs I(t) for
pure standing waves. Standing waves contain no real
active power. At the risk of having Jim Kelley develop
apoplexy :-) standing waves contain only reactive power,
as defined by The IEEE Dictionary.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
In trying to get any work out of V*I*cos(90)=0, blood out
of a turnip comes to mind.

I am not at the point where I would dismiss/cease-to-listen your
argument(s), far from it.

However, I see no reason why standing waves on a string, standing waves
in water, acoustic standing waves in the medium of a tuning fork, etc.
should be expected to behave in any manner inconsistent to em waves in a
medium--which can contain them and whereas standing waves will result ...

While most techs are "rote leaned", I am simply a hobbiest in these
areas, I have no "indoctrinated beliefs."

It is pretty apparent where I would attempt connection with any of these
mechanical waves in an attempt to extract work (power/energy/joules),
and from any "container" capable of containing them.

I have no problem in forming questions about the validity of the math
which drives your argument(s)--in one of my hands lays the
formulas/equations, in the other what my eyes suggest--NO, "what my eyes
tell me" ... close examination of either suggests the other is lie.

You will have patience if this takes a bit--I am sure ...

Regards,
JS

r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Dave wrote:
or FAQ depending on how you look at it... I should probably repeat this
regularly on here.

This newsgroup should NOT be used as a reference source for concepts or
equations regarding fields, waves, transmission lines, or other physical
phenomena. Please consult published text books and peer reviewed journals
for analysis of technical questions. The regular contributors in this group
have a wide variety of misconceptions and erroneous views which they
frequently throw in as if they were well known facts.

On the lighter side, it can be fun now and then to throw them a simple
problem and watch them swarm around like a kicked hornet nest.



You've got the nerve to spew your complaint about a post like that after
all of the filth in the radio usenet groups? You must be as dense as kb9rqz.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:

[his same silly chit to get a debate/conversation going, where he may
pick up a clue or two]

You all know I was kidding, right?

I mean, the neighbor(s) would NEVER let me take up their yards with the
MW tank circuit ... it was only meant as an example to compare standing
waves on a string to a EM standing waves in a POSSIBLE circuit.

Warm regards to all,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:

Oh yeah, and that part about alien metals/technology, I was only
kidding, didn't mean to fool 'ya! :-D

Regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

AI4QJ wrote:

...
Whatever you.ve been smoking or drinking this week, the one clue I can give
you is that the holiday has passed so it's time to sober up, at least until
next week.


To be quite honest, you got me. As a young man, I had "hippie"
leanings. In all honesty, never out grew 'em ...

However, Marijuana was too slow--avoided opium and its' derivatives like
the plague. Have done barbiturates, alcohol, cross tops, mescaline,
LSD, etc., I can't use my imagination effectively under such
influences--had to give 'em up ... you'll find me much more honest than
clinton ... I inhaled!

Now, I did the above as experiments, maybe I was lucky, I felt I
"learned things", don't do much any more except coffee & cigarettes
(sometimes alcohol--hydrocodone for the broken bone in the neck now and
there will be a day that ends--I count on it.--damn fools want to put a
cadaver bone in my neck!--they ain't foolin' me--that is a dead
mans'/womans' bone!)

I don't like drug addicts, don't find alcoholics much fun either, and
especially if there is a "time element" at play; I do like free
thinkers ...

Sounds to me, you have a problem with my "spirit," more than anything
else, and if you can get that into a "bottle" and "examine" it
closely--I'd be disappointed with myself ... my whole question(s)
is/are, "What have we not examined yet?"; "In detail?"

But then, I came here to argue/debate/explore/learn-about antennas and
everything they touch--and NOT me ... you get this one "freebie" and no
more ...

Regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:

[real chit]

You know, it gripes me, when you attack personalties rather than text,
"words", thoughts, beliefs, ignorance, mis-conceptions?, etc. of others
.... you sure you want to appear as a "few" others do here?

Your expenditure of energy would be much better spent in an argument
constructed to "show the truth." It is concepts we argue here, NOT
personalities. If I like you or not, if you like me or not--it matters
not ...

But then, you already knew that--didn't you?

Some here set (sit?) a bad example, you wish to follow their path(s)? I
think NOT!

Regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Owen wrote:
"There is no "antenna system inductance and antenna system capacitance"
at all."

Then there would be no antenna. A real antenna has both types of
reactance, capacitive and inductive. In the best antenna, opposite types
of reactance are equal, so balance to zero, only leaving resistances,
radiation and loss types, to impede current into the antenna.

The transmission line, if its Zo matches the antenna, has no standing
wave, but the antenna in many cases has an open circuit at its tip which
generates standing waves aplenty on the antenna itself.

I am not critical of Owen. His posting was the only one I read in the
thread at that spot. Happy New Year to everybody!

Best Regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Richard Harrison wrote:

...
Best Regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI


I beg your pardon, but a coaxial tank circuit cannot operate without
"circulating currents"--therefore, a standing wave cannot be denied ...

Regards,
JS

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

John Smith wrote:
"I beg your pardon, but a coaxial tank dircuit cannot operate without
circulating currents--therefore a standing wave cannot be denied..."

Standing waves in devices attached to a transmission lines need not
carry over into the line itself.

A transmission line properly matched to an antenna injects all its
energy into the antenna without reflecting any back towards the
transmitter, thus there are no standing waves on the transmission line..

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:

What I said is the voltage and
current in a standing wave are *always* 90 degrees out of
phase and it is impossible to generate heat when the voltage
and current are 90 degrees out of phase.


So then shouldn't one expect coax to be heated uniformly along its
length at a high SWR?


No, any and all heat is work done by traveling waves, not
standing waves.

Perhaps you misunderstood the purpose of the question. Traveling
waves are basically uniform in amplitude along the length of a
transmission line. Why would any heating associated with a traveling
wave anything other than uniformly distributed?

As long as standing waves exist as standing
waves, they are incapable of doing work or heating anything.

You, of all people, should appreciate that since V*I*cos(90)
equals zero for standing waves, absolutely no work can be
performed by a standing wave. If the energy in a standing
wave is used to provide work, the standing wave ceases to
exist as it does at key-up.

In trying to get any work out of V*I*cos(90)=0, blood out
of a turnip comes to mind.

I have a piece of coax around here somewhere that I once burned up. I
recall telling you about it. The insulation is bubbled and melted at
half wavelength intervals. Please explain what particular aspect of a
traveling wave might have caused that to happen.

Thanks and happy new year de ac6xg

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:19:47 -0800, Jim Kelley
wrote:

I have a piece of coax around here somewhere that I once burned up. I
recall telling you about it. The insulation is bubbled and melted at
half wavelength intervals. Please explain what particular aspect of a
traveling wave might have caused that to happen.

Head on collision?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Jim Kelley wrote:

I have a piece of coax around here somewhere that I once burned up. I
recall telling you about it. The insulation is bubbled and melted at
half wavelength intervals. Please explain what particular aspect of a
traveling wave might have caused that to happen.

It's the consequence of having *two* traveling waves, which occurs any
time the line isn't terminated with its characteristic impedance. Betcha
yours wasn't.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
I have a piece of coax around here somewhere that I once burned up. I
recall telling you about it. The insulation is bubbled and melted at
half wavelength intervals. Please explain what particular aspect of a
traveling wave might have caused that to happen.

It was the simple scalar addition of two traveling waves
that caused it to happen. Since standing waves contain no
real power, they cannot directly supply any real power.

Only traveling waves, with their voltages and currents
in phase, can supply real power. Each traveling wave
delivers some of its energy which is converted into heat.

If you believe that steady-state standing waves can supply
real power, please explain how real power can be obtained
when the voltage and current are 90 degrees out of phase.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
I have a piece of coax around here somewhere that I once burned up. I
recall telling you about it. The insulation is bubbled and melted at
half wavelength intervals. Please explain what particular aspect of a
traveling wave might have caused that to happen.

It's the consequence of having *two* traveling waves, ...

Funny how Roy changes his tune from posting to posting, huh?

Consider his exactly opposite response to measuring the
delay through a 75m loading coil using those same two
traveling waves. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:

I have a piece of coax around here somewhere that I once burned up. I
recall telling you about it. The insulation is bubbled and melted at
half wavelength intervals. Please explain what particular aspect of a
traveling wave might have caused that to happen.


It was the simple scalar addition of two traveling waves
that caused it to happen.

'Addition' is not a cause. What is the actual cause - i.e. what
exactly causes coax to melt at half wavelength intervals?

Since standing waves contain no
real power, they cannot directly supply any real power.

To be consistent with the definitions EM waves don't actually
'contain' power, but it is certainly true that interference patterns
don't propagate and transfer energy.

73, ac6xg

Standing morphing to travelling waves. was r.r.a.a WARNING!!!
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
'Addition' is not a cause.

Superposition is not a cause????
Superposition *IS* addition of phasors.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com