Ed_G wrote:
For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of
the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect. I would
have to run a #6 or larger cable over 100' to bond the ground rod just
outside my ham shack to the building power entry ground.

So.... would I be better off just relying on the wall outlet ground
to my equipment? I'm just looking for electrical power safety, plus a
little help in possible static dissipation.

The whole purpose of wall outlet grounds is electrical safety. You
should hope your wall outlet ground is connected to a ground system
which conforms to the NEC. If not, you might be facing some hazards when
using electrical appliances, and might have trouble collecting insurance
money if an electrical fire ever happens. I don't see much purpose in
making another ground system if your home electrical system is properly
grounded according to code. If it isn't, you'd better spend your effort
in bringing it up to code, then using it for electrical safety.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On 24 Feb 2008 19:57:16 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect.

Hi Ed,

The risk of life is a major issue of practicality.
Let's take that to be a fact and proceed to another common action that
is frequently taken. Let's say you are having problems with noise in
your rigs, or strange modulations riding on your signal, or tuning
issues. You might reach for the antenna connector behind your tuner.
The tuner is strapped to ground, and the cable's coaxial shield
supplies this ground to that remote drive point.

As you lean over the tuner, you hold it with one hand, you grab the
coax connector shell, unscrew it and as it separates from the jack
connection the ground currents seek the path formerly through the coax
shield and instead travel through you, hand to hand - across the
heart, and you are killed.

Where do we send the flowers?

p.s. By the way, all those problems I described that caused you to
remove that connector? They come from poor grounding exactly as
described.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


Something like this hapened at a repeater. The power company had lost its
neutral comming into the repeater building. The antenna was going to be
changed out and when the man on the tower unhooked the coax from the antenna
(up around 100 feet on the tower) he got a bad shock. Good thing he had on
a good full body safety harnnes.

The only ground was the tower ground as the ground wire from the meter or
fuse box had been taken off. All the power had been comming through the
coax from the repeater cabinet to ground.

The whole purpose of wall outlet grounds is electrical safety. You
should hope your wall outlet ground is connected to a ground system
which conforms to the NEC. If not, you might be facing some hazards
when
using electrical appliances, and might have trouble collecting
insurance
money if an electrical fire ever happens. I don't see much purpose in
making another ground system if your home electrical system is
properly
grounded according to code. If it isn't, you'd better spend your
effort
in bringing it up to code, then using it for electrical safety.


OK. I may now consider that my electrical outlet will provide the
necessariy equipment ground.

Just to present the facts, this is a brand new home with brand new
electrical service in a nearly new neighborhood with new electrical
underground services.... so I must assume that everything was done
properly and to new to have deteriorated.

Secondly, in reference to my grounding my equipment, No, I would
not be relying on coax shields for grounding. My reference to my own
ground system outside the shack was for a DC ground for each and every
piece of my shack equipment which would be tied individually to a common
shack ground bonded by large cable to an outside ground system.

( Richard, you anticipated my ground intentions incorrectly as I
would never use a coax connection for grounding.... ) But I do
understand ground currents.... so perhaps I'd be better off just letting
the equipment ground itself through the Outlet's little bitty #12 wire
all the way back to the meter box ground.)


Ed K7AAT

On 25 Feb 2008 02:40:48 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

( Richard, you anticipated my ground intentions incorrectly as I
would never use a coax connection for grounding.... ) But I do
understand ground currents.... so perhaps I'd be better off just letting
the equipment ground itself through the Outlet's little bitty #12 wire
all the way back to the meter box ground.)

Hi Ed,

I may have incorrectly anticipated, but you haven't really described
any ground out at that remote point that was tied into the safety
ground at the service entrance - unless it is in this reference to
"little bitty #12 wire."

Do you have remote power through 100' of #12? It isn't clear. If you
don't and the far end is floating perhaps you are driving a dipole,
that too isn't clear - so then, no remote ground is called for.

However, as you are 100 feet up, looking over the dunes along the
coast (I imagine) out over the sea, this is a natural site for a
vertical for DX. Ground would be called for and we return to
potential differences.

So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?



Let me rephrase my situation.

New house near completion. My shack will be at the far corner from
the power service entrance.

I was thinking of just putting a couple ground rods ( bonded together
) just outside my ham shack and letting them be my equipment chassis
ground, probably through a #6 wire from shack to ground rods. My intent
was primarily for DC safety, plus a little 'static' dissipation.

As pointed out by one of you guys, I should meet NEC code, which
would mandate my bonding this separate ground I would install with the
house service entrance ground. My problem with that is that it would
require a run of cable from the ground rods at least 100 feet to get
down and around the house to the service entrance. This is not really
practical nor desirable on my part.

While I understand the potential for ground loops, I deem it a
rather small likelyhood in relation to the static dissipation benefit
I'd get with the closer separate ground I could install. Others here
seem to disagree with me, so I closed my previous post with the comment
that perhaps I'd be better off forgetting my shack ground and just let
the equipment be grounded through the individual power cords to the
outlet ground.

Now that I may have cleared my situation up, what do you guys
think?


Ed K7AAT

PS: Richard, just missing a view of the Pacific... about a half of a
mile away ... and I may reconsider a vertical antenna instead of the
dipole I was going to use.

Ed_G wrote:

Let me rephrase my situation.

New house near completion. My shack will be at the far corner from
the power service entrance.

I was thinking of just putting a couple ground rods ( bonded together
) just outside my ham shack and letting them be my equipment chassis
ground, probably through a #6 wire from shack to ground rods. My intent
was primarily for DC safety, plus a little 'static' dissipation.

As pointed out by one of you guys, I should meet NEC code, which
would mandate my bonding this separate ground I would install with the
house service entrance ground. My problem with that is that it would
require a run of cable from the ground rods at least 100 feet to get
down and around the house to the service entrance. This is not really
practical nor desirable on my part.

While I understand the potential for ground loops, I deem it a
rather small likelyhood in relation to the static dissipation benefit
I'd get with the closer separate ground I could install. Others here
seem to disagree with me, so I closed my previous post with the comment
that perhaps I'd be better off forgetting my shack ground and just let
the equipment be grounded through the individual power cords to the
outlet ground.

Now that I may have cleared my situation up, what do you guys
think?


Ed K7AAT

PS: Richard, just missing a view of the Pacific... about a half of a
mile away ... and I may reconsider a vertical antenna instead of the
dipole I was going to use.

I still recommend just using the outlet ground.

I don't think you'd accomplish anything by adding the ground rods you
mention, and it might even cause a hazard as some others have said. It
certainly won't be any better than your household wiring system ground
for safety or static discharge. What I would do is make sure all your
equipment is grounded through the household wiring safety (outlet)
ground. Its purpose is electrical safety, and that's what it's designed,
installed, and inspected for. Ungrounded equipment can be connected to
grounded equipment or to the mains safety ground -- if it has a power
cord, replace the cord with a 3-wire cord and connect the safety ground
to the chassis and cabinet.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

On Feb 24, 11:37 am, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:
"David G. Nagel" wrote in odigy.net...

Locate a piece of rebar in the concrete and carefully chip the concrete
away until you reach the metal. Then attach a heavy gage wire to the rebar
and close the hole with concrete patch. You will now have access to the
grounding grid.

Dave WD9BDZ

One should never have any rebar exposed to the air. It will rust and expand
breaking the concrete. If put in correctly, it will be about 3 inches
inside the concrete.

Correct, Ralph. Also, NEVER allow the possibility of a lightening
strike to enter rebar in concrete. You will explode the concrete
because of the tremendous localized heating. There goes your
foundation and/or pad your house is setting on. The building
inspectors in Central Oregon do check the footings and foundation
before concrete is poured and would quickly notice a connection from
the rebar to the outside world.

Paul, KD7HB
Redmond, OR

On 25 Feb 2008 04:11:58 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:


So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?



Let me rephrase my situation.

New house near completion. My shack will be at the far corner from
the power service entrance.

I was thinking of just putting a couple ground rods ( bonded together
) just outside my ham shack and letting them be my equipment chassis
ground, probably through a #6 wire from shack to ground rods. My intent
was primarily for DC safety, plus a little 'static' dissipation.

As pointed out by one of you guys, I should meet NEC code, which
would mandate my bonding this separate ground I would install with the
house service entrance ground. My problem with that is that it would
require a run of cable from the ground rods at least 100 feet to get
down and around the house to the service entrance. This is not really
practical nor desirable on my part.


After you take your first couple of lightning strikes you will feel
that a 100' of #6 ground wire to the power ground for the antenna
system ground is a simple requirementl.

I will probably never build another house but if I do, the first
consideration will be proper grounding for both NEC and lightning
protection.

Experience has led me to believe that if you cannot tie a new ground
rod back to the panel ground you should not have the ground rod.

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

wrote:
On Feb 24, 11:37 am, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:
"David G. Nagel" wrote in odigy.net...

Locate a piece of rebar in the concrete and carefully chip the concrete
away until you reach the metal. Then attach a heavy gage wire to the rebar
and close the hole with concrete patch. You will now have access to the
grounding grid.
Dave WD9BDZ
One should never have any rebar exposed to the air. It will rust and expand
breaking the concrete. If put in correctly, it will be about 3 inches
inside the concrete.

Correct, Ralph. Also, NEVER allow the possibility of a lightening
strike to enter rebar in concrete. You will explode the concrete
because of the tremendous localized heating. There goes your
foundation and/or pad your house is setting on. The building
inspectors in Central Oregon do check the footings and foundation
before concrete is poured and would quickly notice a connection from
the rebar to the outside world.

Paul, KD7HB
Redmond, OR

Interesting. Here in Florida, the lightning capital of the continental
US, the ordinary electrical service grounding mechanism is *only* via
bonding to the metal in the foundation. New house construction will not
pass inspection without such a connection unless other more complex
arrangements are fashioned. There are typically no driven ground rods,
and water pipes are usually non-conductive. (The NEC no longer allows
water pipes to serve as the sole ground in any case.)

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Interesting. Here in Florida, the lightning capital of the continental
US, the ordinary electrical service grounding mechanism is *only* via
bonding to the metal in the foundation. New house construction will not
pass inspection without such a connection unless other more complex
arrangements are fashioned. There are typically no driven ground rods, and
water pipes are usually non-conductive. (The NEC no longer allows water
pipes to serve as the sole ground in any case.)

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Must be a recent rules change Gene. I used to manufacture and sell an
instrument to the power companies in FL, a meter that they would connect
between one 120 Volt leg of the service drop and the residential ground rod,
and drive the rod for a 25 Ohm ground. Typically, if they were installing
pad mount transformers for underground service, they would install another
ground rod there.

The Withlacoochee Co-Op, which serviced some of the highest sand dunes in
FL, would often drive 60 feet of ground rod to reach the required
conductance.

W4ZCB