On Apr 10, 3:58 am, (Richard Harrison)
wrote:


Would Art cut and run if his claim of an antenna for HF that deployed in
the size of two shoe boxes and that performed as well as an antenna that
deployed to a significant fraction of a wavelength were so? I think not.
It has always been a fairy tale.


Aaah but then sometimes fairy tales come true.

If you think art has cut and run because his claims are false I
suggest you think again, more likely he has "finally"come to the
realization he is wasting his time with people whose eyes are
blinkered by the ghosts of the past and reject anything that is not
written in a book.
The time for disclosure is coming closer and I forecast that when
it
comes the so called guru's on this group will choke on their word's.

Derek

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:11:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I forecast that when it
comes the so called guru's on this group will choke on their word's.

Hi Derek,

Your forecasting ability would be better served if you actually did
something. One project that comes to mind is your Guru's own design,
that he has explicitly revealed here. It is notable for being easy to
construct and to erect; and offering boon to every user.

Those "supporters" that have faith in Art's design should be able to
give us reports of their own efforts of testing his antenna in his
behalf.

But that doesn't happen.

This fair weather enthusiasm can only be attributable to his
"supporters" patronizing attitude towards Art where they think of him
as a doddering eccentric that needs a chuck under the chin to keep his
spirits up. Such is the mawkish sentimentality of your post that
survives quoted above.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Apr 11, 9:11 am, wrote:


Aaah but then sometimes fairy tales come true.

A Cinderella story this is not...
Cinderella (French: Cendrillon) is a popular fairy tale embodying
a classic folk tale myth-element of unjust oppression/triumphant
reward.
Thousands of variants are known throughout the world.
The word "cinderella" means one who unexpectedly achieves
recognition or success after a period of obscurity and neglect.


If you think art has cut and run because his claims are false I
suggest you think again, more likely he has "finally"come to the
realization he is wasting his time with people whose eyes are
blinkered by the ghosts of the past and reject anything that is not
written in a book.
The time for disclosure is coming closer and I forecast that when
it
comes the so called guru's on this group will choke on their word's.

Derek

Where is the beef? He sent the antenna to be tested by a ham
on this group. Have the tests been completed? No mention yet..
Either he hasn't had time, the snow hasn't melted, or the tests
have been completed, but the results not divulged by Art.
Take your pick.
BTW, I don't blame the tester if he hasn't had time to mess
with it.. It's not really his job to do Art's work anyway..

Prior Art has only himself for this dilemma of credibility.
A normal person would build the thing and compare it to a
known reference. Repeatably, over a period of time over
various paths, etc. They would not expect other people to
do their work for them.
If he can mount his miracle device on a tower, it seems to me
he should be capable of also installing a 1/2 wave dipole at
the appx same mounting height to act as a reference antenna.
I assume his device is horizontally polarized.
If not, he can use a reference monopole.
He talks of receiving DX with this device. I would hope so..
It's fairly common knowledge that even a very small antenna
can be a good receive antenna on that low freq. You have
such a high overall level that atmospheric noise is going to
be the limiting factor, rather than efficiency of the antenna.
The S/N ratio will not be much less than a full size antenna
under normal semi noisy conditions. Maybe not any less,
unless the noise level is very low.
My 44x44 inch diamond MW loop is very good at receiving,
and it can provide fairly good signal levels. But I'd never be
foolish enough to suggest it would make for an efficient
transmitting antenna.
But judging by the description he provides of his shoe box
size antenna using 22 gauge wire, it's quite possible that
my MW loop would out transmit his antenna on 160m.
After all, it's bigger, and using a whole lot less turns to
tune the antenna.
When Art was listening to his DX, why did he not contact
the station and request a signal report?
Cat got his tongue? 0r maybe he did, and the failure to
communicate was just too great for him to bear, much less
divulge to the world. Only the shadow knows for sure.

Why did Art not have a full size antenna up to have on
the air comparisons with said DX station? Or any
station for that matter..
Does he fear rejection of his antenna by said DX station?
It shouldn't really be an issue, being transmitting is not
required to compare the two.
But you have to at least take the initiative to put up a
reference antenna. Whining to rraa is not going to
get it done.
Woe is Art.

How was the performance of the miracle antenna when
you tried it? How did it compare to a full size reference
antenna? Did you see the same inefficient type of
performance from your version as Art described?
How many people have actually been able to hear you
through the noise using such an antenna?
Do you cheat and let the feed line the bulk of the radiating?
Do you actually work 160m at all?


Oh, you say you haven't tried it at all, but just like to
further the propagation of fairy tales...
I get it now. In other words, you about as full of @#$%
as he is?
I've been choking on his bafflegab for quite a while, so
that would be addfing nothing new to add to the program.
:/
The only thing you have left is to prove us naysayers
wrong. Better get busy. The tooth fairy is not going to
do your work for you and stick it under your pillow while
you count the sheep.
I've already tried small antennas. Except for my mobile
where I have no choice, I have no use for small antennas.
I don't like having to repeat most everything I say two or
three times to get a message through the noise.
I tried a half size dipole on 160m, using heavy high Q
loading coils. It would have eaten Arts miracle whip for
lunch. But to me, it was an inferior radiating device,
and was dismantled after only a short time of testing.
But Art is going to beat that 120 ft long high Q loaded
antenna with a shoe box sized mass of 22 gauge wire,
wound in what I consider a perverted manner...
Chortle....You slay me, you really do.

wrote:
The word "cinderella" means one who unexpectedly achieves
recognition or success after a period of obscurity and neglect.

A very appropriate name for my dog obtained from the
dog pound.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Art Unwin wrote:
Regards to all as I depart where I will not be privey to your replies
and can thus concentrate on other matters.
Art Unwin KB9MZ....XG an east ender from the UK)(

Make sure the door hits you in the ass.

tom
K0TAR

On Apr 11, 11:59 pm, Richard Clark wrote:


Your forecasting ability would be better served if you actually did
something.


Hi Richard

I put your suggestion back to you, give me a convincing argument as
to why Art's antenna would not be viable, apart from the knee jerk
reaction it was designed by Art therefore it cannot be viable.

Derek

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 06:04:17 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Apr 11, 11:59 pm, Richard Clark wrote:


Your forecasting ability would be better served if you actually did
something.


Hi Richard

I put your suggestion back to you, give me a convincing argument as
to why Art's antenna would not be viable, apart from the knee jerk
reaction it was designed by Art therefore it cannot be viable.

Hi Derek,

Put it back to me? Talk about passivity. As I said, I see nothing in
your reply that actually GOES to any active supporting participation
by you, simply maudlin cheerleading. This is fey effort at appearing
to be gracious.

I have modeled ALL of Art's contraptions. Art has modeled them all
too. I have offered the results of that work. Art rarely offers the
results of his work. I have built enough models into wire and
aluminum (and foils and coils) to find that they all conform to models
within suitable accuracy. Art has built enough models into.... and
has to date never expressed how they directly compare. The archives
are complete to this record - available to anyone with an actual
interest in the topic. The results? Pitifully dull where the
imagination is reserved for the rhetoric of claims cloaked in a fog of
ersatz academia.

You aren't really interested are you? You can't even answer the
simple questions about his designs, nor name one advantage pressed
against actual performance shown. What are you here for? Slumming
for amusement and Art fills the bill? Just another Troll.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Derek wrote:
"---give me a convincing argument as to why Art`s antenna should not be
viable,---."

It may be viable. Light bulb thansmissions have been detected over
considerable distances.

From clues, Art`s antenna is a full wavelength of small wire coiled to
make a dipole. If equilibrium means two equal coils are used to make the
dipole, each contains one half wavelength of wire. Each coil fits
(almost) in a shoebox.

Such a dipole doesn`t radiate as a fullwave antenna, although Art`s clue
is that his antenna doesn`t radiate perpendicular to the axis. That
would be true for a straight fullwave antenna remote from ground. Terman
says on page 868 of his 1955 opus:
"The result is a directional pattern in which the maximum of radiation
occurs at an angle with respect to the wire axis which is the case shown
in Fig. 23-6 is approximately 64 degrees (see Fig. 23-4a)."

I`d wager Art`s antenna radiates more as a halfwave dipole radiates.

I posted an excerpt earlier that said that experimenters had found a
short insulating whip could be wound with almost twice the resonant
length of wire to make the short whip resonant at about half the
frequency for a conducting pole of the whip`s length. British hams were
quoted as saying the results were good when heavy wire was used for the
coil. One can imagine making a dipole with two such quarterwave pole
lengths which is my guess as to what Art did, except for the heavy wire.

A continuous small diameter coil is a radial mode helix, not an axial
mode helix. It will radiate radially or perpendicularly like a length of
wire replacing the axis of the coil. Its radiating length is only about
half the length of wire wound into the coil using the experimental
results. A full wavelength of wire continuously loading a half
wavelength dipole would have about twice the loss resistance of a
straight wire dipole. This explains the wide bandwidth Art clains for
his antenna.

Efficiency is radiation resistance over total resistance, (loss +
radiation resistance). Radiation resistances for the straight and coiled
dipoles are about the same but the higher loss of the coiled antenna
makes it something of a dummy load. Low efficiency does not make such
antennas not "viable".

B&W has many satisfied customers for its resistance loaded folded
dipole. Bandwidth can trump efficiency. Art`s antenna may find similar
favor.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

On Apr 12, 12:56 pm, Richard Clark wrote:
Art has modeled them all
too.

I think modeling is how he gets started with these things.
That freaking optimizer program that shows him how to
build a skewed 6 element antenna with the performance
of the usual 3 element. What a breakthrough... :/
I called that particular antenna the "cluster%$#@"....
Then then he abandoned that one and decided to go with the
coil antenna he's pushing now.
Viable? Sure it's viable if you don't mind a puny signal.
Note the Isotron.. To me, not a whole heck of a lot
different than what Art proposes. Arts version may
be slightly inferior though..
And some people do buy and use them.. Mostly
ones with yards the size of clothes closets and have
no other choice but to try small antennas of that ilk.
I doubt any of those users really feel like they are
setting the woods on fire.
I knew a guy here locally that ran one for a while
on 75m. He was able to radiate, but a vast majority
of the people on frequency could not hear him.
I think he retired that antenna after a while.
I suspect he ran out of hair to pull out...
And as mentioned, quite a few QSO's have been
made using dummy load light bulbs.
Usually by accident when they forgot to flip the
switch to the real antenna...
Is a light bulb viable as an antenna?
I suppose.. But don't try to claim it is an efficient
radiator.
To sum.. Art suffers delusions of grandeur induced
by various modeling program optimizers.
This can happen to anyone. But... most people
will verify if the data is true by comparing to known
reference antennas. Art does not do this.
He places unflinching blind trust into these programs.
And they have led him astray from reality.
Woe is Art.

wrote:
Note the Isotron..

I suspect that the Isotron performs best when the
feedline is radiating like crazy. So the question
is: Has anyone ever tried to maximize feedline
radiation? Seems that is what the Carolina Windom
has done by accident. Can it be done on purpose?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com