I have a 60ft garden and my maximum height I can go is only 20ft. I would
like to TX on 80-40 and on 160 if possible but I might be asking the
impossible with the 160m..
I do not have a ground system in place. I can put some earth rods in and
some surface wire but I have no way of putting any wire into the soil
itself. So I am a bit limited.

I have a 150ft of flexweave wire that is uv plastic coated to play with.
I think I have three choices to chose from at the moment.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L with homebrew traps built in.
I can use an inverted L with homebrew traps built in but without the
SGC-230.

What would be the best choice and why?

Many thanks

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:00:42 +0100, "Barrett"
wrote:

I have a 60ft garden and my maximum height I can go is only 20ft. I would
like to TX on 80-40 and on 160 if possible but I might be asking the
impossible with the 160m..
I do not have a ground system in place. I can put some earth rods in and
some surface wire but I have no way of putting any wire into the soil
itself. So I am a bit limited.

I have a 150ft of flexweave wire that is uv plastic coated to play with.
I think I have three choices to chose from at the moment.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L with homebrew traps built in.
I can use an inverted L with homebrew traps built in but without the
SGC-230.

What would be the best choice and why?

Many thanks



I am going to give it a WAG and suggest you would be better off
without the traps. Can the tuner be mounted in the weather? If so,
put it as close to the wire as you can and as high as possible.
If not, does if feed twin-lead? If so, could you make a 150 foot
dipole and feed it with twin-lead to the tuner? I would like that
idea best. Even 300 ohm twin lead from Radio shack would be good.

The inverted L seems to prefer ground radials, but a dipole or random
wire may be better. If you can go up and only in one direction, could
you run 300 ohm up and tap one end? this would be an end-fed Zep, i
believe, and the tuner should tune it.

My thoughts are that you will be better off with as much of your 150
feet of wire horizontal in the air rather than in the inverted L
configuration, given your stated restrictions.

BTW, my tuner is manual, but I operated from a 130 foot dipole about
100 feet high fed with RS tv twin-lead for about a year with 100 watts
and did very well.

73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

Barrett,
End fed wires and/or inverted 'L's tend to work much better with an
adequate ground system. That 'adequate' is very variable, more is
better than less in general. Something like 150 feet is not exactly
'adequate' enough for a 'good' 160 meter 'wire'. Not exactly 'bad'
for the higher bands though. A surface ground system will probably do
as well as a buried one. Just watch it when mowing the grass!
Either of your options are going to be marginal for 160m. Which would
be best? Good question! Hope you let us know the answer when you
find it. While putting that tuner at the feed point is almost always
the 'best' way of doing it, it's also the hardest. I'm afaid
'practical' wins out over 'best' in most cases.
Not much help, huh? You're right, it isn't. 'Best' is always
dependent on the particular circumstances present. Good luck.
- 'Doc

"Buck" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:00:42 +0100, "Barrett"
wrote:

I have a 60ft garden and my maximum height I can go is only 20ft. I would
like to TX on 80-40 and on 160 if possible but I might be asking the
impossible with the 160m..
I do not have a ground system in place. I can put some earth rods in and
some surface wire but I have no way of putting any wire into the soil
itself. So I am a bit limited.

I have a 150ft of flexweave wire that is uv plastic coated to play with.
I think I have three choices to chose from at the moment.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L with homebrew traps built in.
I can use an inverted L with homebrew traps built in but without the
SGC-230.

What would be the best choice and why?

Many thanks



I am going to give it a WAG and suggest you would be better off
without the traps. Can the tuner be mounted in the weather? Yes
If so,
put it as close to the wire as you can and as high as possible.
If not, does if feed twin-lead? Yes, so far as I know.
If so, could you make a 150 foot
dipole and feed it with twin-lead to the tuner? I would like that
idea best. Even 300 ohm twin lead from Radio shack would be good. This is
out due to getting it through the house wall.


The garden is only 60ft long, so fitting in 150ft won't work here. I could
make a Z up but the end of one end would have to drop to garage roof height
(9ft) and it would put the other end of the Z running (clipped onto the
plastic gutter). This would put the Aerial very close to the house and very
close to the neighbours TV and radio aerial.



The inverted L seems to prefer ground radials, but a dipole or random
wire may be better. If you can go up and only in one direction, could
you run 300 ohm up and tap one end? this would be an end-fed Zep, i
believe, and the tuner should tune it.


I could do but my nax height would be 20ft would this work? Also I have a
20ft scaffold pole note grounded that the G5RV is supported by won't this
interfere with it?



My thoughts are that you will be better off with as much of your 150
feet of wire horizontal in the air rather than in the inverted L
configuration, given your stated restrictions.

BTW, my tuner is manual, but I operated from a 130 foot dipole about
100 feet high fed with RS tv twin-lead for about a year with 100 watts
and did very well.

73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

I came across this web site http://www.paulnic.com/ekrs/aom_sep04.htm after
searching for weeks on how to construct a pair of 80m conductor add-ons. I
might go down this root short term, just to get on the air.

I wonder if I could use some 42 strand speaker wire to make the conductor or
will I have to order some enamelled SWG20 copper wire as stated?

Thanks


wrote in message
...


Barrett,
End fed wires and/or inverted 'L's tend to work much better with an
adequate ground system. That 'adequate' is very variable, more is
better than less in general. Something like 150 feet is not exactly
'adequate' enough for a 'good' 160 meter 'wire'. Not exactly 'bad'
for the higher bands though. A surface ground system will probably do
as well as a buried one. Just watch it when mowing the grass!
Either of your options are going to be marginal for 160m. Which would
be best? Good question! Hope you let us know the answer when you
find it. While putting that tuner at the feed point is almost always
the 'best' way of doing it, it's also the hardest. I'm afaid
'practical' wins out over 'best' in most cases.
Not much help, huh? You're right, it isn't. 'Best' is always
dependent on the particular circumstances present. Good luck.
- 'Doc

Ok, Barrett,

First of all, I missed your british accent the first time around, and
I have also read the instruction manual that came with the tuner.

Now that I understand you and the tuner (coupler) better, I can make
better informed recommendations.


I have a 60ft garden and my maximum height I can go is only 20ft. I would
like to TX on 80-40 and on 160 if possible but I might be asking the
impossible with the 160m..

Your coupler says it only needs 23 feet to tune 160m. At that rate,
you would not be one of the big fishes in the pond, but you would be
there.

I do not have a ground system in place. I can put some earth rods in and
some surface wire but I have no way of putting any wire into the soil
itself. So I am a bit limited.


You might have more of a ground than you think. hang in there...

I have a 150ft of flexweave wire that is uv plastic coated to play with.
I think I have three choices to chose from at the moment.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L with homebrew traps built in.
I can use an inverted L with homebrew traps built in but without the
SGC-230.

What would be the best choice and why?

The best choice is the one that will give you effective communications
given your resources and abilities. I think you will do well.


I am going to give it a WAG and suggest you would be better off
without the traps.

your coupler supersedes your need for traps.


Can the tuner be mounted in the weather? Yes
See Page 7 in the users manual. Can you acquire or spare a plastic
garbage can?


SNIP

If so, could you make a 150 foot
dipole and feed it with twin-lead to the tuner? I would like that
idea best. Even 300 ohm twin lead from Radio shack would be good. This is
out due to getting it through the house wall.

I assume you can get a piece of coax out from the radio to the
coupler?



The garden is only 60ft long, so fitting in 150ft won't work here. I could
make a Z up but the end of one end would have to drop to garage roof height
(9ft) and it would put the other end of the Z running (clipped onto the
plastic gutter). This would put the Aerial very close to the house and very
close to the neighbours TV and radio aerial.



The inverted L seems to prefer ground radials, but a dipole or random
wire may be better. If you can go up and only in one direction, could
you run 300 ohm up and tap one end? this would be an end-fed Zep, i
believe, and the tuner should tune it.


I could do but my nax height would be 20ft would this work? Also I have a
20ft scaffold pole note grounded that the G5RV is supported by won't this
interfere with it?




To me, this is your ace in the hole

See the diagram at the top of page 7?

Here is what I would do assuming the trees or other supports
cooperate.

Get a protective cover for the coupler as shown. Mount the coupler as
high up the pole as you can. Ground the coupler to the pole well
where you mount it, and cover the coupler as in the diagram.

at the base of the pole, set one of the ground rods and ground the
pole to the rod. You don't need any wire going from the tuner to the
ground rod as the scaffold pole will be the conductor.

From the tuner, stretch your wire out as far as you can to the other
supports. Weave it around, if you must, but try to get as close to 80
feet of wire strung out as possible. Make a "T" in the wire if
necessary giving the wire three points, one at the tuner and two going
different directions. For me, the more wire, the better. The more
spread out, the better.

Now, when you reach your limit, take the rest of the wire and make as
much of ground radials as you can as you see in the diagram on pages 7
& 16.

If you can't run them far, go as far as you can.

The second alternative? Replace your G5RV with the installation shown
in the diagram on page 17.

If you can't raise the coupler up the pole very high, you could mount
it as high as possible on the pole, and run the hot lead up beside the
pole (separated as far as possible) loop it thru an insulator near the
top of the pole and continue trying to get as much wire out as
possible.


I imagine that if I walked thru your garden and saw it in person, I
would make different suggestions, but based on my perception of what I
have never seen, I can only take a bit of a guess.

Let me know how it goes.

Thanks



--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

Buck, here are some photo's of the antenna at the moment. The new one will
have to be in a similar position.
http://www.hobby.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/antenna/3.jpg
http://www.hobby.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/antenna/4.jpg

Not sure what to cover the SGC with to keep the rain out. Plus it will be in
direct sun all day on top of the pole. Garden is Roughly North to south..
South being at the pole end of the garden.
I can disconnect the homebrew G5RV and move the ugly coax balun I made up to
the pole and add some new coax in-between. I know its a lot of connections
but it will have to do for the time being.


Hope this helps.

Thanks


"Buck" wrote in message
...
Ok, Barrett,

First of all, I missed your british accent the first time around, and
I have also read the instruction manual that came with the tuner.

Now that I understand you and the tuner (coupler) better, I can make
better informed recommendations.


I have a 60ft garden and my maximum height I can go is only 20ft. I
would
like to TX on 80-40 and on 160 if possible but I might be asking the
impossible with the 160m..

Your coupler says it only needs 23 feet to tune 160m. At that rate,
you would not be one of the big fishes in the pond, but you would be
there.

I do not have a ground system in place. I can put some earth rods in and
some surface wire but I have no way of putting any wire into the soil
itself. So I am a bit limited.


You might have more of a ground than you think. hang in there...

I have a 150ft of flexweave wire that is uv plastic coated to play with.
I think I have three choices to chose from at the moment.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L with homebrew traps built in.
I can use an inverted L with homebrew traps built in but without the
SGC-230.

What would be the best choice and why?

The best choice is the one that will give you effective communications
given your resources and abilities. I think you will do well.


I am going to give it a WAG and suggest you would be better off
without the traps.

your coupler supersedes your need for traps.


Can the tuner be mounted in the weather? Yes
See Page 7 in the users manual. Can you acquire or spare a plastic
garbage can?


SNIP

If so, could you make a 150 foot
dipole and feed it with twin-lead to the tuner? I would like that
idea best. Even 300 ohm twin lead from Radio shack would be good. This
is
out due to getting it through the house wall.

I assume you can get a piece of coax out from the radio to the
coupler?



The garden is only 60ft long, so fitting in 150ft won't work here. I could
make a Z up but the end of one end would have to drop to garage roof
height
(9ft) and it would put the other end of the Z running (clipped onto the
plastic gutter). This would put the Aerial very close to the house and
very
close to the neighbours TV and radio aerial.



The inverted L seems to prefer ground radials, but a dipole or random
wire may be better. If you can go up and only in one direction, could
you run 300 ohm up and tap one end? this would be an end-fed Zep, i
believe, and the tuner should tune it.


I could do but my nax height would be 20ft would this work? Also I have a
20ft scaffold pole note grounded that the G5RV is supported by won't this
interfere with it?




To me, this is your ace in the hole

See the diagram at the top of page 7?

Here is what I would do assuming the trees or other supports
cooperate.

Get a protective cover for the coupler as shown. Mount the coupler as
high up the pole as you can. Ground the coupler to the pole well
where you mount it, and cover the coupler as in the diagram.

at the base of the pole, set one of the ground rods and ground the
pole to the rod. You don't need any wire going from the tuner to the
ground rod as the scaffold pole will be the conductor.

From the tuner, stretch your wire out as far as you can to the other
supports. Weave it around, if you must, but try to get as close to 80
feet of wire strung out as possible. Make a "T" in the wire if
necessary giving the wire three points, one at the tuner and two going
different directions. For me, the more wire, the better. The more
spread out, the better.

Now, when you reach your limit, take the rest of the wire and make as
much of ground radials as you can as you see in the diagram on pages 7
& 16.

If you can't run them far, go as far as you can.

The second alternative? Replace your G5RV with the installation shown
in the diagram on page 17.

If you can't raise the coupler up the pole very high, you could mount
it as high as possible on the pole, and run the hot lead up beside the
pole (separated as far as possible) loop it thru an insulator near the
top of the pole and continue trying to get as much wire out as
possible.


I imagine that if I walked thru your garden and saw it in person, I
would make different suggestions, but based on my perception of what I
have never seen, I can only take a bit of a guess.

Let me know how it goes.

Thanks



--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

Does it have to be a T shape and why?
How important is it to make all angles at least 90 degrees?

I have neighbours both sides of my house. My neighbours to my right looking
down to the pole is ok with the wire antenna but the neighbours to my left,
I'm having problems with.I have a feeling that they do not want anything
near there side and truth be know they would rather not see any of it. I'm
sure they had some thing to do with the planning officer paying a visit to
my house about 12 months ago, when I had a I-max 2000 antenna for 10-18Mhz
up on a 10ft pole on near there side So I have to try and keep the wire to
the one side of my garden if possible.

Thanks

"Buck" wrote in message
...
Ok, Barrett,

First of all, I missed your british accent the first time around, and
I have also read the instruction manual that came with the tuner.

Now that I understand you and the tuner (coupler) better, I can make
better informed recommendations.


I have a 60ft garden and my maximum height I can go is only 20ft. I
would
like to TX on 80-40 and on 160 if possible but I might be asking the
impossible with the 160m..

Your coupler says it only needs 23 feet to tune 160m. At that rate,
you would not be one of the big fishes in the pond, but you would be
there.

I do not have a ground system in place. I can put some earth rods in and
some surface wire but I have no way of putting any wire into the soil
itself. So I am a bit limited.


You might have more of a ground than you think. hang in there...

I have a 150ft of flexweave wire that is uv plastic coated to play with.
I think I have three choices to chose from at the moment.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L.
I can use the SGC-230 with an inverted L with homebrew traps built in.
I can use an inverted L with homebrew traps built in but without the
SGC-230.

What would be the best choice and why?

The best choice is the one that will give you effective communications
given your resources and abilities. I think you will do well.


I am going to give it a WAG and suggest you would be better off
without the traps.

your coupler supersedes your need for traps.


Can the tuner be mounted in the weather? Yes
See Page 7 in the users manual. Can you acquire or spare a plastic
garbage can?


SNIP

If so, could you make a 150 foot
dipole and feed it with twin-lead to the tuner? I would like that
idea best. Even 300 ohm twin lead from Radio shack would be good. This
is
out due to getting it through the house wall.

I assume you can get a piece of coax out from the radio to the
coupler?



The garden is only 60ft long, so fitting in 150ft won't work here. I could
make a Z up but the end of one end would have to drop to garage roof
height
(9ft) and it would put the other end of the Z running (clipped onto the
plastic gutter). This would put the Aerial very close to the house and
very
close to the neighbours TV and radio aerial.



The inverted L seems to prefer ground radials, but a dipole or random
wire may be better. If you can go up and only in one direction, could
you run 300 ohm up and tap one end? this would be an end-fed Zep, i
believe, and the tuner should tune it.


I could do but my nax height would be 20ft would this work? Also I have a
20ft scaffold pole note grounded that the G5RV is supported by won't this
interfere with it?




To me, this is your ace in the hole

See the diagram at the top of page 7?

Here is what I would do assuming the trees or other supports
cooperate.

Get a protective cover for the coupler as shown. Mount the coupler as
high up the pole as you can. Ground the coupler to the pole well
where you mount it, and cover the coupler as in the diagram.

at the base of the pole, set one of the ground rods and ground the
pole to the rod. You don't need any wire going from the tuner to the
ground rod as the scaffold pole will be the conductor.

From the tuner, stretch your wire out as far as you can to the other
supports. Weave it around, if you must, but try to get as close to 80
feet of wire strung out as possible. Make a "T" in the wire if
necessary giving the wire three points, one at the tuner and two going
different directions. For me, the more wire, the better. The more
spread out, the better.

Now, when you reach your limit, take the rest of the wire and make as
much of ground radials as you can as you see in the diagram on pages 7
& 16.

If you can't run them far, go as far as you can.

The second alternative? Replace your G5RV with the installation shown
in the diagram on page 17.

If you can't raise the coupler up the pole very high, you could mount
it as high as possible on the pole, and run the hot lead up beside the
pole (separated as far as possible) loop it thru an insulator near the
top of the pole and continue trying to get as much wire out as
possible.


I imagine that if I walked thru your garden and saw it in person, I
would make different suggestions, but based on my perception of what I
have never seen, I can only take a bit of a guess.

Let me know how it goes.

Thanks



--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

Barrett,
A little speculating.
Is there any chance of finding an 'anchor' point on your home's roof?
Nothing very spectacular or noticeable from the 'street' side, but one
that would add a few feet/yards to your present antenna supports?
How would your neighbors feel about a fairly tall pole supporting a
bird house? (And naturally, you would want to guy that pole to keep
the bird house from falling, right?) Several possibilities there!

The conductor used for an antenna must be conductive with a low
resistive value. After that, almost anything will work (just fine, in
most cases). Who wouldn't want gold/silver conductors if po$$ible,
but copper works well for us poorer people .

If whatever you end up with works, it not being one of the classical
'shapes' for an antenna isn't exactly a "biggy". Having lived in
places that were not the 'ideal' antenna sites for most of my life,
when confronted with a site that could hold almost any antenna, I was
really at a loss as to what to do. And since the antennas I have used
prior to that were never 'ideal', I ended up using one of those "less
than ideal" antennas and did just fine. Did I have the 'best' signal
on the band? Not exactly! But so what, it was "good enough". I
think you are in about the same situation, sort of. (I also do not
have a planning commission or deed restrictions to worry about, so
guess I'm 'ahead' of you in that regard.)
Good luck!
- 'Doc

(Pssst! Put that tuner on the roof, cover with something that looks
like a "sun roof" thingy, support the antenna wire with a post with a
weather vane on the top. If questioned, say the @#$ thing has been
there for ages, those @#$ - ^%%^ neighbors don't know what they are
talking about!)

Barrett wrote:
Does it have to be a T shape and why?...

It "has to be" a piece of metal in the air.
That's about the only constraint. And seeing as
there are underground antennas, that constraint
is not always constant.

Put metal in the air. Tune it up. Work the world.

I'm on 20 and 40 meters on 5 watts on a
~75' dipole through a tuner every day. I make
contacts with Austraila, S America, Euro, Hawaii,
all from my little remote QRP SSB station in Arizona.
My dipole isn't tuned. It's simply two halves of a 150'
piece of wire I had.

I've done the same thing on a 35' wire, a ham stick
vert and a pair of hamsticks horizontal. I've loaded
up an aluminum lawn chair and worked Canada and the
USA midwest, Florida, New England. The difference
in any of the signals received is perhaps a couple
of dB.


Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke

www.n0eq.com