"it is no better than a dummy load."
Well, good. If it does it's job as well as a dummy load does it's
job, then I would think it's doing a pretty good job. Wouldn't you?
'Course, they don't have the same job so I wouldn't expect one to
replace the other (although, it isn't impossible).
Where are you going with this Cecil?
- 'Doc

wrote:
Where are you going with this Cecil?

"Reflections"
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:33:16 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

A popular myth is developing that the tuner has no effect
at the antenna feedpoint and the only goal is to make the
transmitter "happy". My question is: if we monitored
only the forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner? If the answer
is "yes", the myth is false.

Would it help to attach an antenna analyzer to the back side of a
tuner, tune the antenna and see if it affects the analyzer?
--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

Buck wrote:
Would it help to attach an antenna analyzer to the back side of a
tuner, tune the antenna and see if it affects the analyzer?

Certainly it changes the impedance looking into the tuner
input and that has an effect on the entire antenna system.
The forward and reflected voltages, currents, and powers are
at their maximum values when the tuner achieves a Z0-match.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"If we monitored only forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner?"

Yes because a conjugate match delivers all available power (a maximum)
and a conjugate match also exists at every pair of terminals between the
transmitter and the antenna if the tuner and line are essentially
lossless.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Richard Harrison wrote:
Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"If we monitored only forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner?"

Yes because a conjugate match delivers all available power (a maximum)
and a conjugate match also exists at every pair of terminals between the
transmitter and the antenna if the tuner and line are essentially
lossless.

I made an interesting assertion on a related thread over
on QRZ Q&A.

"A CONJUGATE MATCH TO A MISMATCHED LOAD GUARANTEES MAXIMUM
POWER REFLECTED FROM THE LOAD!"

The maximum available power is delivered to a mismatched load
when a conjugate match exists. It follows that is also the
point where the incident power is maximum and the mismatched
load will be reflecting the maximum amount of incident power.

Apparently, one could adjust an antenna tuner for a conjugate
match by monitoring the reflected power at the *output* of the
tuner and adjusting for a maximum. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Jun 23, 8:23 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Richard Harrison wrote:
Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"If we monitored only forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner?"

Yes because a conjugate match delivers all available power (a maximum)
and a conjugate match also exists at every pair of terminals between the
transmitter and the antenna if the tuner and line are essentially
lossless.

I made an interesting assertion on a related thread over
on QRZ Q&A.

"A CONJUGATE MATCH TO A MISMATCHED LOAD GUARANTEES MAXIMUM
POWER REFLECTED FROM THE LOAD!"

The maximum available power is delivered to a mismatched load
when a conjugate match exists. It follows that is also the
point where the incident power is maximum and the mismatched
load will be reflecting the maximum amount of incident power.

Apparently, one could adjust an antenna tuner for a conjugate
match by monitoring the reflected power at the *output* of the
tuner and adjusting for a maximum. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Maxwells law states for efficiency the antenna sysystem must be in
equilibrium.
Equilibrium means that the antenna or antenna system must be a
parallel system because it represents
a full wave length.The transmitter adds a parallel circuit to the
system but it does put stress on the output if the antenna is not in
equilibrium.
It is thus better to keep the stresses away from the transmitter and
contain them in a separate tuner where excess power can slosh
backwards and forwards in the tank circuit, this helps to prevent
expence damage to the finals If you want the antenna system to finish
at the antenna feed point area then you place the tuner at that point,
where it is still part of a antenna system because it allows the
antenna only the power it needs for saturation and where the excess is
circulated in the tuner. If you want the antenna to operate without
the tuner then the antenna will resort to a system where with the
inclusion of a ground system and feed system will act as a heat sink
in the absence of equilibrium at the antenna. When you want the
antenna to radiate the energy it is supplied then it must be in
equilibrium where the distributed loads provide a tank circuit for
efficient radiation without saturation overkill. Remember that what
radiats is a full wave length of wire wether it is all on the antenna
or the antenna spreads the excess to the tuner and the feed system.
You cant stop the radiation you just try to ensure the excess doesn't
create damage when it turns into heat

Art Unwin wrote:

Maxwells law states for efficiency the antenna sysystem must be in
equilibrium.


None of the laws named after Maxwell state any such thing.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Jim Higgins wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:33:16 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

A popular myth is developing that the tuner has no effect
at the antenna feedpoint and the only goal is to make the
transmitter "happy". My question is: if we monitored
only the forward current or forward power at the antenna
feedpoint, could we still adjust the tuner? If the answer
is "yes", the myth is false.


I suspect many hams are confused on this subject and that many more
just express themselves awkwardly.

What's totally beyond my understanding is why so many here repeatedly
waste their time helping you have fun with either category.

Bravo! Endless self-indulgent mental masturbation appears to be the
function of far too many posts over the last several years. This has
virtually ruined what at one time was a fine resource for amateurs
interested in antennas. I used to recommend that people who had
questions about or interest in antennas come to this newsgroup. I
stopped doing it, and now only take a look myself every week or two to
see if anything has changed...it only seems to get worse.

It's a damn shame what a few frequent posters have done to this newsgroup.