In message
,
Leon writes
On 24 Jun, 03:18, Nick wrote:
Hi All,

* I keep reading on various websites and in various documents that HF
verticals should have a "line isolator" (a choke/current balun)
located near the antenna's feedpoint to prevent coax feedline re-
radiation, disruption of the antenna's radiation pattern, sub-optimal
vertical performance, and RFI in the shack. *My question is this: just
how important is a choke balun when using a ground-mounted HF (for
40M) quarter-wave vertical antenna with 32 quarter-wave buried
radials? *And if it is important, why wouldn't the choke be placed at
the shack's input, so that the coax's outer shield could act as
another radial? (I had always assumed that a vertical didn't need a
balun at all, and that only dipoles used them. *Am I wrong about
this?).

Thanks!

Nick

A balun isn't required.

Leon

With this type of antenna, it certainly is not common practice to
choke/isolate the coax, especially the coax braid can be grounded at the
antenna feedpoint and in the shack, and possibly at some intermediate
points along its length. It wouldn't do any harm to use one, but it
probably wouldn't do very much.
--
Ian

On Jun 24, 8:09*am, Ian Jackson
wrote:
In message
,
Leon writes





On 24 Jun, 03:18, Nick wrote:
Hi All,

* I keep reading on various websites and in various documents that HF
verticals should have a "line isolator" (a choke/current balun)
located near the antenna's feedpoint to prevent coax feedline re-
radiation, disruption of the antenna's radiation pattern, sub-optimal
vertical performance, and RFI in the shack. *My question is this: just
how important is a choke balun when using a ground-mounted HF (for
40M) quarter-wave vertical antenna with 32 quarter-wave buried
radials? *And if it is important, why wouldn't the choke be placed at
the shack's input, so that the coax's outer shield could act as
another radial? (I had always assumed that a vertical didn't need a
balun at all, and that only dipoles used them. *Am I wrong about
this?).

Thanks!

Nick

A balun isn't required.

Leon

With this type of antenna, it certainly is not common practice to
choke/isolate the coax, especially the coax braid can be grounded at the
antenna feedpoint and in the shack, and possibly at some intermediate
points along its length. It wouldn't do any harm to use one, but it
probably wouldn't do very much.
--
Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for all the great responses guys! That is exactly what I
had thought, that since the outer coax braid is grounded at the
antenna, and at the shack, and (in my case) at the center with a
lightening protector, then I just couldn't figure out why some antenna
companies, such as reliable DX engineering with their DXE-VFCC H05-A
Vertical Feedline Current Choke, strongly recommend such a line
isolator for verticals. A direct quote from DX Engineering's Website:

"2/5 kW Vertical Feedline Current Choke
If your antenna SWR is already low and you wish to reduce feedline
radiation and improve reception, a Feedline Current Choke is
recommended. Adding a DX Engineering Feedline Current Choke at the
base of a vertical antenna will substantially reduce unwanted feedline
radiation (RFI), reducing the need for improved station grounding.

When quarter-wave antennas are constructed over a good radial system,
they have a feedpoint impedance of about 36 ohms. When they are
constructed over less than a good radial-system there is a loss
introduced into the feed system that adds to the 36-ohm figure. This
improves the SWR but there is a loss in the efficiency of the antenna,
signals transmitted and received have a higher take-off angle and
often there is current introduced on to the feedline.

With a ground-mounted quarter-wave vertical, regardless of the radial
situation, but especially with poor radial systems, the feedline can
become part of the radial system, causing RFI and poor antenna
performance. By using a VFCC at the feedpoint, the feedline is
effectively de-coupled from the antenna system, preventing interaction
with the radial system, improving antenna efficiency. You may notice
improved bandwidth as well.

The Advantages of Using a VFCC:
Prevents unwanted RFI by eliminating feedline current and radiation
All power goes to the antenna, improving efficiency
Reduces noise or unwanted signals picked-up by the feedline
Overcome a less than optimal ground system
Bracket isolates the VFCC case from ground for best de-coupling"


-Nick

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:10:31 -0700 (PDT), Nick
wrote:

Hi Nick,

In response to the ad-copy, I would make some points:

When quarter-wave antennas are constructed over a good radial system,
they have a feedpoint impedance of about 36 ohms. When they are
constructed over less than a good radial-system there is a loss
introduced into the feed system that adds to the 36-ohm figure. This
improves the SWR but there is a loss in the efficiency of the antenna,
This is good, as far as it gets to this point, but...

signals transmitted and received have a higher take-off angle and
often there is current introduced on to the feedline.

Take-off angle is dictated to the quality of ground 5 to 10
wavelengths AWAY (and further) from the antenna.

You could, if you so choose, build 120 radials out 20 wavelengths to
achieve their implied claim of radials contributing to lower take-off
angles.

With a ground-mounted quarter-wave vertical, regardless of the radial
situation, but especially with poor radial systems, the feedline can
become part of the radial system, causing RFI and poor antenna
performance.

For a transmitter, it is unlikely that the listener could tell the
difference between operating into that "poor radial system" and adding
the a vfcc.

By using a VFCC at the feedpoint, the feedline is
effectively de-coupled from the antenna system, preventing interaction
with the radial system, improving antenna efficiency. You may notice
improved bandwidth as well.

This contains a contradiction when it gets to the "improved
bandwidth." Presuming that means wider, it then means more loss. More
loss would come from NOT using the vfcc (or why buy one?).

The Advantages of Using a VFCC:
Prevents unwanted RFI by eliminating feedline current and radiation
All power goes to the antenna, improving efficiency

Uh-huh. Again, will the listener be able to tell? A radiating
feedline might boost their gain - who knows?

Reduces noise or unwanted signals picked-up by the feedline
Overcome a less than optimal ground system
Bracket isolates the VFCC case from ground for best de-coupling"

The noise pickup is the more likely benefit (along with the remote
ground - tied into the service ground as required by code). House
noise can travel down the outer portion of the shield to then develop
across the load of the antenna, and then wrap around to travel back
inside the coax to the receiver. A choke will snub this path and the
remote ground will lower the resistance. The divider action
suppresses local noise.

The same benefit can be obtained from a $25 purchase of bulk ferrite
beads (about 50 of them) which are fitted over a one foot length of
RG-58 (or the distal end of your feedline).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Nick wrote:
Thanks for all the great responses guys! That is exactly what I
had thought, that since the outer coax braid is grounded at the
antenna, and at the shack, and (in my case) at the center with a
lightening protector, then I just couldn't figure out why some antenna
companies, such as reliable DX engineering with their DXE-VFCC H05-A
Vertical Feedline Current Choke, strongly recommend such a line
isolator for verticals.

Nick, think about it. If you ground the feedline at exactly a
common-mode standing wave voltage node, the ground accomplishes
absolutely nothing. You certainly don't want to use "plumber's
delight" techniques in your ground system.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Jun 24, 3:30*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Nick wrote:
* *Thanks for all the great responses guys! *That is exactly what I
had thought, that since the outer coax braid is grounded at the
antenna, and at the shack, and (in my case) at the center with a
lightening protector, then I just couldn't figure out why some antenna
companies, such as reliable DX engineering with their DXE-VFCC H05-A
Vertical Feedline Current Choke, strongly recommend such a line
isolator for verticals.

Nick, think about it. If you ground the feedline at exactly a
common-mode standing wave voltage node, the ground accomplishes
absolutely nothing. You certainly don't want to use "plumber's
delight" techniques in your ground system.
--
73, Cecil *http://www.w5dxp.com


Thanks Richard and Cecil.
Cecil, I understand what you are saying, but still why not use the
outer shield of the coax as one of the radials, and simply choke off
the coax just before it enters the shack? I also don't want to add
what may be a useless choke at the antenna's feedpoint, since that
would decrease the antenna system's efficiency due to the choke's
resistive losses...

Thanks!

-Nick

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Nick
wrote:

I also don't want to add
what may be a useless choke at the antenna's feedpoint, since that
would decrease the antenna system's efficiency due to the choke's
resistive losses...

Hi Nick,

A choke at the feedpoint does NOT add loss.

The Choke (which may be resistive insofar as the bulk material's
property) is in the Common Mode circuit. The load is in the
Differential Mode circuit. You want a very, very high Z (or R, it
makes no difference) in the Common Mode circuit. The choke is
entirely transparent to the Differential Mode circuit.

If you don't understand the difference between the two modes (and it
is not a common topic outside of electronics design) then, no doubt,
others will fill in (or simply go to wikipedia).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Jun 24, 6:16*pm, Richard Clark wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Nick

wrote:
I also don't want to add
what may be a useless choke at the antenna's feedpoint, since that
would decrease the antenna system's efficiency due to the choke's
resistive losses...

Hi Nick,

A choke at the feedpoint does NOT add loss.

The Choke (which may be resistive insofar as the bulk material's
property) is in the Common Mode circuit. *The load is in the
Differential Mode circuit. *You want a very, very high Z (or R, it
makes no difference) in the Common Mode circuit. *The choke is
entirely transparent to the Differential Mode circuit.

If you don't understand the difference between the two modes (and it
is not a common topic outside of electronics design) then, no doubt,
others will fill in (or simply go to wikipedia).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Thanks for the further info Richard! I guess I don't really fully
understand why the pure resistive losses in the coax choke wouldn't
affect the efficiency of the monopole. If I understand you correctly
(and I may not!), then even if we increase the impedance of the coax
choke to insane levels, such as by making it 1000 feet long and
winding it on a six inch diameter PVC form, then the huge losses
normally inherent in such a long run of coax would not be seen at all
by the vertical because it is wound on the PVC form? (I'm not arguing
with you at all, I just really want to know).

73,

-Nick

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:12:55 -0700 (PDT), Nick
wrote:

Thanks for the further info Richard! I guess I don't really fully
understand why the pure resistive losses in the coax choke wouldn't
affect the efficiency of the monopole. If I understand you correctly
(and I may not!), then even if we increase the impedance of the coax
choke to insane levels, such as by making it 1000 feet long and
winding it on a six inch diameter PVC form, then the huge losses
normally inherent in such a long run of coax would not be seen at all
by the vertical because it is wound on the PVC form? (I'm not arguing
with you at all, I just really want to know).

73,

-Nick

Hi Nick,

Well, no argument perceived. 1000 feet would come with its own loss.
This is published in dB attenuation/100 feet for almost any type and
grade of coax in the market (and those that are no longer made). This
is truly Differential Mode loss.

Winding too much into a coil would not necessarily achieve the results
expected due to self-resonance (it could act like a shorted choke, and
not very useful). You can achieve astonishingly high Zs with a coiled
transmission line with very little effort (roughly 8-12 turns on a
liter pop bottle - empty of course - for HF). It will peak at some
frequency and provide adequate isolation in nearby bands; however, the
ferrite chokes can be made to cover a decade of frequency - or much
more (3-30 MHz), if you care to really go whole hog (3MHz-3GHz) with
1000 Ohms of Z (principally R) without too much effort either (more
cost than effort I should add).

One proviso should be observed: Whatever problems find their way onto
the shield of the coax (Common Mode circuit) can arrive over the air.
If they do, they can induce themselves into the below the choke point
as easily as at the antenna. The solution here is to repeat the choke
construction 1/4 wavelength from the feedpoint (a second choke, that
is). If you are choking a wide band, you might try distributing the
ferrite beads over a greater length of coax than the 1 foot it would
normally inhabit. I have a 20 foot ferrite choking section that I can
insert, inline, into my feeds. It has one bead every 3 or 4 inches. I
wouldn't advise this as replacing the feedpoint choke, but rather the
second choke some short distance away.

Note that I made a distinction about interference coming in "over the
air." This is not the only way as most home based interference comes
into the receiver by conduction - sharing a poor ground. Most folks
who swear that chokes don't work (or at least theirs don't so none
do), are suffering from ground loops. A choke can help, but not
nearly as well as combining it with conventional grounding solutions.
Poor advice abounds in this topic too.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I guess I don't really fully
understand why the pure resistive losses in the coax choke wouldn't
affect the efficiency of the monopole.

A simple way to think of it is: Ferrite beads over the outer of a coax has
no effect on the signals flowing 'normally'
up and down 'inside' it. The beads only effect signals that are flowing on
the outer (treating it like a piece of wire rather
than a coax transmission line). I know that this is not quite the full story
but it is a simple explanation of the situation
under discussion.

Jeff

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Nick
wrote:

On Jun 24, 3:30Â*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Nick wrote:
Â* Â*Thanks for all the great responses guys! Â*That is exactly what I
had thought, that since the outer coax braid is grounded at the
antenna, and at the shack, and (in my case) at the center with a
lightening protector, then I just couldn't figure out why some antenna
companies, such as reliable DX engineering with their DXE-VFCC H05-A
Vertical Feedline Current Choke, strongly recommend such a line
isolator for verticals.

Nick, think about it. If you ground the feedline at exactly a
common-mode standing wave voltage node, the ground accomplishes
absolutely nothing. You certainly don't want to use "plumber's
delight" techniques in your ground system.
--
73, Cecil Â*http://www.w5dxp.com


Thanks Richard and Cecil.
Cecil, I understand what you are saying, but still why not use the
outer shield of the coax as one of the radials, and simply choke off
the coax just before it enters the shack? I also don't want to add
what may be a useless choke at the antenna's feedpoint, since that
would decrease the antenna system's efficiency due to the choke's
resistive losses...

Thanks!

-Nick

When I was into 2-meters 40+ years ago, I preferred gamma-matched
verticals.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
| |
| America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave |
| |
| Due to excessive spam, googlegroups, UAR & AIOE are blocked! |