My program is not Nec based so I am not familiar with that routine.,
I cant model my antenna because of the pre twisted wires. I can
however
model a combination of two helix antennas without interweaving into
one circuit.
where one helix antenna is slightly larger diameter than the other
My program shows instances of gain! So the question becomes is your
model
based on zip cord which is suggested by one and secondly what was the
reason for the combimation of two antennas
to shrivle away into dust or the equivalent of a dummy load. It is
also suggested that antennas such as this
are breaking the laws of nature so does your program show the arrival
of doom ?.
I am making this antenna very frequently and all these things
predicted are just not happening. But then I would never use
zip cord or violate the rules of nature if I was advised which one I
was violating but apparently that is a secret.
So Frank what is the antenna configuration etc that your program
represents so that I can understand the particulars that you have so
genouresly probided so all may share

I have tried two variants of the model: Interleaved, and one slightly
inside the other. I used uninsulated # 14 AWG copper, and designed for 7
MHz.
The copper conductivity used is 5.8001E7 S/m. At resonance the
the input impedance is 3.1 ohms. The radiation resistance computes
to 0.14E-3 ohms. For 100 W input the total radiated power is
2 mW. At 1000 m, normal to the axis of helices, the field strength
is 3.7E-4 V/m (RMS). I have found, for such closed spaced helical models,
that segmentation is critical. My model uses 2200 segments,
and takes 28 seconds to run. The "Average gain test" returns "Good".
The "Average gain test" is a method employed by Nittany Scientific's
NEC based programs to estimate model validity.

The interleaved model version appears to have a slightly better
performance than the "Coaxial" structure. It is essential,
when testing such a higly compact radiator, that a balun
be used to feed the antenna. The "Tak-tenna", for
example, has a very low radiation efficiency. It is
designed for use witout a balun, and the bulk of the radiation
occurs from currents flowing on the outside of the
coaxial shield.

73,

Frank

On Jul 13, 10:57 am, "Frank" wrote:
My program is not Nec based so I am not familiar with that routine.,
I cant model my antenna because of the pre twisted wires. I can
however
model a combination of two helix antennas without interweaving into
one circuit.
where one helix antenna is slightly larger diameter than the other
My program shows instances of gain! So the question becomes is your
model
based on zip cord which is suggested by one and secondly what was the
reason for the combimation of two antennas
to shrivle away into dust or the equivalent of a dummy load. It is
also suggested that antennas such as this
are breaking the laws of nature so does your program show the arrival
of doom ?.
I am making this antenna very frequently and all these things
predicted are just not happening. But then I would never use
zip cord or violate the rules of nature if I was advised which one I
was violating but apparently that is a secret.
So Frank what is the antenna configuration etc that your program
represents so that I can understand the particulars that you have so
genouresly probided so all may share

I have tried two variants of the model: Interleaved, and one slightly
inside the other. I used uninsulated # 14 AWG copper, and designed for 7
MHz.
The copper conductivity used is 5.8001E7 S/m. At resonance the
the input impedance is 3.1 ohms. The radiation resistance computes
to 0.14E-3 ohms. For 100 W input the total radiated power is
2 mW. At 1000 m, normal to the axis of helices, the field strength
is 3.7E-4 V/m (RMS). I have found, for such closed spaced helical models,
that segmentation is critical. My model uses 2200 segments,
and takes 28 seconds to run. The "Average gain test" returns "Good".
The "Average gain test" is a method employed by Nittany Scientific's
NEC based programs to estimate model validity.

The interleaved model version appears to have a slightly better
performance than the "Coaxial" structure. It is essential,
when testing such a higly compact radiator, that a balun
be used to feed the antenna. The "Tak-tenna", for
example, has a very low radiation efficiency. It is
designed for use witout a balun, and the bulk of the radiation
occurs from currents flowing on the outside of the
coaxial shield.

73,

Frank

Thank you for that Frank but something is incorrect sorry to say!
The impedance for a single wavelength of wire was close to a 100 ohms.
When I dampened it by adding wasvelengths to it the impedance
stabalised around 68 ohms.
I do not know what the optimum number of wavelengths should be for the
high band.with respect to gain and impedance
There was a question asked some where with respect to the number of
wavelengths required for optimum
which really I do not know.! What I do know that equilibrium is the
cornerstone so the magnetic field produced
by the radiator must equal that of n times wavelength. The Variometer
either extends the strength of the field
or diminishes it such that it is symptomatic of a wavelength which is
in equilibrium and also resonant. at the particular frequency at hand.
If all is at the above there is never a need for a choke or a balun
since with this radiator you never move away from the resonant point
as with a filter. The on ly imbalance is the coax feed that you are
connecting to a perennial balanced load. I would add that I wind my
antennas with a pretwisted wire whiich basically four coils
Regards
Art
unwinantennas

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:57:23 GMT, "Frank"
wrote:

For 100 W input the total radiated power is 2 mW.

-47dB

It will take a whole lot more signal degradation to reach the Weak
Force threshold (about 83dB more, just to compare to the Strong Force
- much less a standard dipole).

Hi Frank,

With the disclaimer:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
My program is not Nec based so I am not familiar with that routine.,

Your results will no doubt be shunned as unauthentic (in spite of his
program being NEC based, but 20+ years older - we won't go into his
confusion of not knowing what NEC is).

I've noticed an old hobby horse trotted out to the starting gate:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
based on radiation per unit length of radiator

This nostrum was offered years ago to explain "efficiency," and no
doubt the corruption of what "efficiency" means will be used to muddy
the stupendous loss into figures of amazing merit.

It should come as no surprise that even allowing (patronizing the
authur as several contributors here desire) for this aberrant reading
of "efficiency" (per unit length) that the authur's Weak Force Antenna
design is not one ten-thousandth the size of the standard dipole. As
such, this new design is still not as "efficient per unit length" as a
standard dipole when the authur's terms are accepted.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:10:36 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
I would add that I wind my antennas with a pretwisted wire

Note the contradiction to the construction instructions offered just 4
days befo

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:11:52 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin wrote:
Nor is the wire pre twisted pair which nullifies near field

The authur's construction instructions have been violated by the
authur. This violates the necessary equilibrium.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Jul 13, 12:10*pm, Art Unwin wrote:

I do not know what the optimum number of wavelengths should be for the
high band.with respect to gain and impedance

I thought your present world revolved around 1 wavelength...
Obviously there must be a chink in this armor..

There was a question asked some where with respect to the number of
wavelengths required for optimum
which really I do not know.!

I thought your present world revolved around 1 wavelength...
Obviously there must be a chink in this armor..


What I do know that equilibrium is the
cornerstone so the magnetic field produced
by the radiator must equal that of n times wavelength.

If you n times a wavelength, the armor will become to
heavy to wear. :/

The Variometer
either extends the strength of the field
or diminishes it such that it is symptomatic of a wavelength which is
in equilibrium and also resonant. at the particular frequency at hand.
If all is at the above there is never a need for a choke or a balun
since with this radiator you never move away from the resonant point
as with a filter.

Hate to break this to you but resonance, SWR, match, etc, ad
nausium have nothing at all to do with the presence or lack of
common mode currents on a feedline.

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:57:23 GMT, "Frank"
wrote:

For 100 W input the total radiated power is 2 mW.

-47dB

It will take a whole lot more signal degradation to reach the Weak
Force threshold (about 83dB more, just to compare to the Strong Force
- much less a standard dipole).

Hi Frank,

With the disclaimer:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
My program is not Nec based so I am not familiar with that routine.,

Your results will no doubt be shunned as unauthentic (in spite of his
program being NEC based, but 20+ years older - we won't go into his
confusion of not knowing what NEC is).

I've noticed an old hobby horse trotted out to the starting gate:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
based on radiation per unit length of radiator

This nostrum was offered years ago to explain "efficiency," and no
doubt the corruption of what "efficiency" means will be used to muddy
the stupendous loss into figures of amazing merit.

It should come as no surprise that even allowing (patronizing the
authur as several contributors here desire) for this aberrant reading
of "efficiency" (per unit length) that the authur's Weak Force Antenna
design is not one ten-thousandth the size of the standard dipole. As
such, this new design is still not as "efficient per unit length" as a
standard dipole when the authur's terms are accepted.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Not sure what to say. I have designed some ultra compact vehicular
helices for 0.54 to 210 MHz. Network analyzer measurements
indicated the models as very close to that predicted by NEC2.

The project was abandoned due to very poor results -- even with
a 30 dB pre-amp the reception was unsatisfactory. The auto
manufacturers are desperate to have a vehicular BC/FM/Digital
antenna that fits into a "Sharkfin" shaped radome.

Heck, I may have to build one of Art's models and measure the
parameters.

73,

Frank

On Jul 13, 10:04 pm, "Frank" wrote:
"Richard Clark" wrote in message

...



On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:57:23 GMT, "Frank"
wrote:

For 100 W input the total radiated power is 2 mW.

-47dB

It will take a whole lot more signal degradation to reach the Weak
Force threshold (about 83dB more, just to compare to the Strong Force
- much less a standard dipole).

Hi Frank,

With the disclaimer:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
My program is not Nec based so I am not familiar with that routine.,

Your results will no doubt be shunned as unauthentic (in spite of his
program being NEC based, but 20+ years older - we won't go into his
confusion of not knowing what NEC is).

I've noticed an old hobby horse trotted out to the starting gate:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
based on radiation per unit length of radiator

This nostrum was offered years ago to explain "efficiency," and no
doubt the corruption of what "efficiency" means will be used to muddy
the stupendous loss into figures of amazing merit.

It should come as no surprise that even allowing (patronizing the
authur as several contributors here desire) for this aberrant reading
of "efficiency" (per unit length) that the authur's Weak Force Antenna
design is not one ten-thousandth the size of the standard dipole. As
such, this new design is still not as "efficient per unit length" as a
standard dipole when the authur's terms are accepted.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Not sure what to say. I have designed some ultra compact vehicular
helices for 0.54 to 210 MHz. Network analyzer measurements
indicated the models as very close to that predicted by NEC2.

The project was abandoned due to very poor results -- even with
a 30 dB pre-amp the reception was unsatisfactory. The auto
manufacturers are desperate to have a vehicular BC/FM/Digital
antenna that fits into a "Sharkfin" shaped radome.

Heck, I may have to build one of Art's models and measure the
parameters.

73,

Frank

Obviously Frank I do not have your experience and for many years total
opinioni. I feel comfortable about most things is that it will never
work or it is a dummy load e.t.c.
I have never tested it for gain or anything like that as those sort of
things arouse the ire of hams more than anything.
One thing I am absoluetly positive is that I have made many antennas
of this design over the years and the measurementsmade on the SWR
meter in Aussi land is pretty much the same impedance that I get with
my MFJ 259 b. If I could model the antenna with interleaving then I
would have some idea with respect to testing. When I place a helix
over a helix of the standard design pre provided as an example I also
get similar impedances to what I measure
so it is the pre twisted wire and the fact that it then becomes four
interwound helixes is what makes the difference. When I have finished
my present work I am going to think things out all again or wait for
the others who are making them to present some observations. My flat
matt antenna seems like a good candidate for the shark fin arrangement
and that is one of them that I am sending to California! So for this
summer I will have to endure the continueing caustic comments of the
group who may well finish up on the correct side since they are
obviously in the majority. For me the only thing that needs to be
completed is a chamber test and Illinois University has one of these
so..........By the way Frank the antenna did quit well on a quick
sorty thru the TV channels where I anticipated just snow but I didn't
get to deep on that as I vie2wed it as novelty for if I want to mess
with 2.4 Ghz
Regards
Art
unwinantennas.com

On Jul 13, 10:04 pm, "Frank" wrote:
"Richard Clark" wrote in message

...



On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:57:23 GMT, "Frank"
wrote:

For 100 W input the total radiated power is 2 mW.

-47dB

It will take a whole lot more signal degradation to reach the Weak
Force threshold (about 83dB more, just to compare to the Strong Force
- much less a standard dipole).

Hi Frank,

With the disclaimer:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
My program is not Nec based so I am not familiar with that routine.,

Your results will no doubt be shunned as unauthentic (in spite of his
program being NEC based, but 20+ years older - we won't go into his
confusion of not knowing what NEC is).

I've noticed an old hobby horse trotted out to the starting gate:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
based on radiation per unit length of radiator

This nostrum was offered years ago to explain "efficiency," and no
doubt the corruption of what "efficiency" means will be used to muddy
the stupendous loss into figures of amazing merit.

It should come as no surprise that even allowing (patronizing the
authur as several contributors here desire) for this aberrant reading
of "efficiency" (per unit length) that the authur's Weak Force Antenna
design is not one ten-thousandth the size of the standard dipole. As
such, this new design is still not as "efficient per unit length" as a
standard dipole when the authur's terms are accepted.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Not sure what to say. I have designed some ultra compact vehicular
helices for 0.54 to 210 MHz. Network analyzer measurements
indicated the models as very close to that predicted by NEC2.

The project was abandoned due to very poor results -- even with
a 30 dB pre-amp the reception was unsatisfactory. The auto
manufacturers are desperate to have a vehicular BC/FM/Digital
antenna that fits into a "Sharkfin" shaped radome.

Heck, I may have to build one of Art's models and measure the
parameters.

73,

Frank

You know Frank, there is always the possibility that what I have is in
fact a induction
heater without radiation shielding. In other words the copper actually
radiates a larger portion of energy into heat
if there is a ferro magnetic material with in the near field! So a
heat test is required on the antenna in a field where
there is no possibility of induction heating. Thinking out loud here
as I have not read up on the subject of induction heating
which I thought was a result of hysterysis of ferro magnetic materials
where I am using a diamagnetic material. There maybe a spill over of
sciences here

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:24:59 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

there is always the possibility that what I have is in
fact a induction
heater without radiation shielding.

It is entirely possible that it is simply conduction heating with
derek's 8 Ohms of wire resistance where yours is going on 17 Ohms of
wire resistance at a minimum:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:06:14 -0700 (PDT), derek wrote:

As a
matter of interest you say on your page you used aprox 2000 feet of
wire on a 12 by 12 inch former, from my experience with my former I
would say you only used aprox 1000 feet of wire.

I wonder what happened to the equilibrium sense of a wavelength in all
this? Out the window when convenience trumps theory, and necessity
drives claims. Nice to see that confederates can report failure of
the basic underlying thesis.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC