On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 00:26:44 +0100, "christofire"
wrote:

If you believe that's the basis of EMP then I won't argue with your opinion.

Hi Chris,

Your statement implies that a "basis" can lead to some new unique RF
phenomenon.

If EMP is co-opted for some trendy single purpose definition that
denudes the former understanding of its general (and still no less
applicable) meaning, then, yes, we have descended into opinionated
belief systems which depend upon faith.

What you infer by "basis" is that this particular pulse (with the
unstated nuclear detonation, or an e-bomb as the initiator) is somehow
different from all other pulses. No, not in the least. By whatever
"basis," there are very ordinary formulas that allow for rise time,
fall time, pulse duration, magnitude, and such artifacts as ringing
(undershoot, overshoot, crest, and the rest).

"Basis" is not another engineering term for magnitude. What was
astonishing through nuclear detonation was corralled and managed into
an e-bomb, which is nothing more remarkable than clever engineering of
shorting a capacitor. Each of the three could be cleverly induced to
give the same RF signature - what price "basis?" It happens a
trillion times a day with all the microwaves ovens on this earth.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 00:26:44 +0100, "christofire"
wrote:

If you believe that's the basis of EMP then I won't argue with your
opinion.

Hi Chris,

Your statement implies that a "basis" can lead to some new unique RF
phenomenon.

If EMP is co-opted for some trendy single purpose definition that
denudes the former understanding of its general (and still no less
applicable) meaning, then, yes, we have descended into opinionated
belief systems which depend upon faith.

What you infer by "basis" is that this particular pulse (with the
unstated nuclear detonation, or an e-bomb as the initiator) is somehow
different from all other pulses. No, not in the least. By whatever
"basis," there are very ordinary formulas that allow for rise time,
fall time, pulse duration, magnitude, and such artifacts as ringing
(undershoot, overshoot, crest, and the rest).

"Basis" is not another engineering term for magnitude. What was
astonishing through nuclear detonation was corralled and managed into
an e-bomb, which is nothing more remarkable than clever engineering of
shorting a capacitor. Each of the three could be cleverly induced to
give the same RF signature - what price "basis?" It happens a
trillion times a day with all the microwaves ovens on this earth.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


The effects on equipment of repetitive cycles of incident electric field
strength with alternating polarity, constant period and equal rise and fall
times (AKA a sine wave), whether continuous or 'pulsed', are different from
the effects of an incident pulse of electric field strength with a short
rise time that is not broken up into harmonic cycles. The latter can induce
a high voltage pulse that is wideband in the same manner as the result of a
lightning strike, and this can propagate through an installation causing
damage. The former cannot do that. Of course, I appreciate the difference
is the spectral width of the incident 'signal'.

The example you gave was of the former type, radiation from a microwave
oven, whereas I had written about the latter type. An open microwave oven
may well cook a human but it won't have much effect on a power cable feeding
a computer other than, perhaps, melting the insulation! A wideband pulse of
electric field of sufficicient strength will damage the computer. But,
evidently, you disagree ...

Chris

Richard Clark wrote:

"Basis" is not another engineering term for magnitude. What was
astonishing through nuclear detonation was corralled and managed into
an e-bomb, which is nothing more remarkable than clever engineering of
shorting a capacitor. Each of the three could be cleverly induced to
give the same RF signature - what price "basis?" It happens a
trillion times a day with all the microwaves ovens on this earth.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard

To see you write that the "clever engineering of shorting a capacitor"
is remotely similar to standing in front of a microwave oven is very
disappointing to say the least. You are losing your edge.

You know very well that they aren't remotely similar in the effects
produced. For one thing the "clever engineering of shorting a
capacitor" is very misleading without at least some explanation of how
different it is from simply shorting a capacitor.

tom
K0TAR

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:52:46 -0500, tom wrote:

To see you write that the "clever engineering of shorting a capacitor"
is remotely similar to standing in front of a microwave oven is very
disappointing to say the least. You are losing your edge.

You know very well that they aren't remotely similar in the effects
produced. For one thing the "clever engineering of shorting a
capacitor" is very misleading without at least some explanation of how
different it is from simply shorting a capacitor.

Hi Tom,

EMP is a fast charge/discharge event. EMP products come in three
flavors, I will only discuss the fastest. The fastest is rarely
described with a risetime less than 1nS, but I have seen others bandy
about the frequency of 10GHz, so we have to assume they have links to
literature that claim a risetime on the order of 33pS. Be that as it
may, mercury switches can switch a 1000V pulse into a 50Ohm load in
500ps. This is laboratory stuff, not armament. Armament can be
engineered to perform with larger supplies as one-shot disposable
switches (you don't run lab equipment to failure, new out of the box
on the first application of power). Such switches are controlled
access and limited sale items.

To generate this 10GHz pulse would require very, very short very, very
low resistance leads; which would, of course, become part of a tuned
(to 10GHz) circuit. The trigger device often employs a charge driven
shorting bar. It is only a matter of capacitance and low resistance
metalurgy from there.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 02:13:52 +0100, "christofire"
wrote:

The effects on equipment of repetitive cycles of incident electric field
strength with alternating polarity, constant period and equal rise and fall
times (AKA a sine wave), whether continuous or 'pulsed', are different from
the effects of an incident pulse of electric field strength with a short
rise time that is not broken up into harmonic cycles. The latter can induce
a high voltage pulse that is wideband in the same manner as the result of a
lightning strike, and this can propagate through an installation causing
damage. The former cannot do that. Of course, I appreciate the difference
is the spectral width of the incident 'signal'.

Hi Chris,

You are mixing frequency domain with time domain descriptions. Example
repeated from above:
a short rise time that is not broken up into harmonic cycles.

"A short rise time" is made up of an increasingly dense spectrum of
harmonic cycles. It cannot be otherwise.


The example you gave was of the former type, radiation from a microwave
oven, whereas I had written about the latter type.

You are now mixing modulation into the time domain to argue against a
frequency domain solution. Modulation, if anything, adds even more
spectral (harmonic cycle) products.

Besides, I offered you simply reduce the number of modulation cycles,
by their count, to reduce the effect to that of one cycle (of
modulation). A pulse is a modulation of one cycle (however poorly
shaped it may be, and it envelopes a pluarity of SHF cycles).

An open microwave oven
may well cook a human but it won't have much effect on a power cable feeding
a computer other than, perhaps, melting the insulation! A wideband pulse of
electric field of sufficicient strength will damage the computer. But,
evidently, you disagree ...

No, not evident at all. Any "effect" is more a function of amplitude
than a failure to warm insulation:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:43:10 +0100, "christofire"
wrote:
but how much damage is a pulse of 10 GHz RF going to do?
"How much damage" speaks specifically to that function of amplitude,
not pulse shape, not rise time, fall time, or the rest; and as you are
explicit in giving a specific frequency.... The microwave oven
example suitably answers this. A RADAR example does even better (and
still the results, save for amplitude, are the same).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:08:33 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote:

The trigger device often employs a charge driven
shorting bar.

Charge here means explosive charge (accelerating the shorting bar into
the capacitor).

It is only a matter of capacitance and low resistance
metalurgy from there.

The capacitor is called a Marx bank (some cold-war irony there) in a
Explosively Pumped Flux Compression Generator. There are issues of
self shorting inductors wound around cylindrical explosive charges and
reams of discussion which all basically devolves to very simple and
fundamental LC with peak IR relationships.

How could it be otherwise?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:

Besides, I offered you simply reduce the number of modulation cycles,
by their count, to reduce the effect to that of one cycle (of
modulation). A pulse is a modulation of one cycle (however poorly
shaped it may be, and it envelopes a pluarity of SHF cycles).


Even though I know you're having some fun here Richard, your division by
pulse assumes that the effects are linear.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:34:50 -0400, Michael Coslo
wrote:

Even though I know you're having some fun here Richard, your division by
pulse assumes that the effects are linear.

Yes, they are. However, for some members who contribute to this group
insofar as postings about ejected particels and Luxembourg effect,
non-linearities may abound.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:34:50 -0400, Michael Coslo
wrote:

Even though I know you're having some fun here Richard, your division by
pulse assumes that the effects are linear.

Yes, they are. However, for some members who contribute to this group
insofar as postings about ejected particels and Luxembourg effect,
non-linearities may abound.

That gets me to wondering...

Is my theory about RF energy being little turds that fly off an antenna
in agreement or disagreement with those particels?

I'll refresh everyone if they didn't hear it before.

RF energy consists of little packets of waste material, like little
turds, that get ejected from an antenna (as the last link in the chain
as new material flows into the antenna. This is obvious as a
characteristic of conservation of mass as well as general digestion.

These little turds leave the antenna with great velocity. While flying
through the air, they are naturally attracted to other antennas (derived
from holistic like treats like principles) and are therefore received on
other radios.

The result and characteristics of this process are that unless
transmissions match reception, which is almost impossible, the little
turds accumulate on our antennas, and over time result in crappy
performance.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:38:10 -0400, Michael Coslo
wrote:

Is my theory about RF energy being little turds that fly off an antenna
in agreement or disagreement with those particels?

Yes, particels and these specimens are in fact derived from the same
source.

I'll refresh everyone if they didn't hear it before.

RF energy consists of little packets of waste material, like little
turds, that get ejected from an antenna (as the last link in the chain
as new material flows into the antenna. This is obvious as a
characteristic of conservation of mass as well as general digestion.

One must expand on this to include impedance matching ointments such
as Preparation H (and the lowering of transmission line restriction
losses with Ex-Lax). Can it be said that diamagnetism is like a
greasy lube job for propagation?

These little turds leave the antenna with great velocity. While flying
through the air, they are naturally attracted to other antennas (derived
from holistic like treats like principles) and are therefore received on
other radios.

If they are to be circularly polarized, they will need a corriolis
evacuation.

The result and characteristics of this process are that unless
transmissions match reception, which is almost impossible, the little
turds accumulate on our antennas, and over time result in crappy
performance.

It must be true - evidence AM talk shows.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC